04-10-2004, 09:24 AM #1
Proviron and PCT Conventional Wisdom Wrong?
While I've used Provirion before and have liked the hardness it adds (to muscles and elsewhere ) together with its extra anti-e properties, I've always stopped it before PCT since conventional wisdom (backed by years of AAS experience which I respect) has always said it is suppressive and will interfere with PCT. Thats why I was interested to see a post by Lawnsaver in this thread (Click for Link) citing two studies that demonstrate little if any HPTA suppression from relatively large doses.
What gives? Is this a case of the research not matching reality? Has anybody had any experiences one way or the other running Provirion during PCT? Seems to me, if Mesterolone actually has little suppressive impact, then wouldn't running into the first few weeks of PCT (and maybe extending Clomid/Nolva by a week or two) help to avoid a libido crash after a long cycle?
Waiting to hear what the experts think.
04-10-2004, 09:39 AM #2
It would, youre right in thinking that.
That is a very interesting study. 85 out of 250 men having suppression still seems like quite a few however.
04-10-2004, 10:00 AM #3
So are you not suppose to take l-dex during PCT? Never heard that before. Anyone have any ideas on that?
04-10-2004, 11:18 AM #4Originally Posted by hybrid
04-10-2004, 11:25 AM #5Originally Posted by pragmatic
The "evidence" is contradicting:
Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8 Related Articles, Links
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.
Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7. Related Articles, Links
The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).
Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.
Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment
Arch Dermatol Res. 1981;270(3):333-40. Related Articles, Links
[Effects of long-term use of mesterolone on different urine metabolites in andrological patients (author's transl)]
[Article in German]
Schramm P, Benes P, Morsches B.
We studied whether long-term use of mesterolone (12 weeks and longer) changed the pattern of steroid metabolites in urine from male subjects. We noticed an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) levels from 211-4 +/- 130.5 ug/die to 9943.8 +/- 6564.7 ug/die in the urine of all subjects tested. This increase was significant. After mesterolone administration was discontinued, DHEA levels decreased to their initial value. DHEA levels showed the smallest increase in those subjects having high plasma FSH levels. Perhaps the delta 4 pathway of testosterone synthesis may be preferred in these three subjects. We suppose that mesterolone has a blocking effect on the delta 5 pathway of testosterone synthesis. DHEA from the DHEA-pool can be used for testosterone synthesis and mesterolone seems to block some enzymes in the synthetic pathway. We were not able to detect a decrease in plasma testosterone levels during mesterolone use because of technical problems. Moreover, our patients told us that they felt ill after discontinuing mesterolone use; it may be possible that there is a psychotropic DHEA-effect during mesterolone use.
Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links
Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.
Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.
The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.
You can't draw any conclusive conclusion as of yet. There are certainly better alternatives during pct, those which we DO know not to adversely affect testosterone production...why role the dice with something questionable?
04-10-2004, 02:14 PM #6Registered User
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04-10-2004, 02:18 PM #7
04-10-2004, 02:20 PM #8Originally Posted by TheSevnthWarrior
04-10-2004, 02:37 PM #9Originally Posted by einstein1905
04-10-2004, 07:41 PM #10
Thanks, Einstein, you know your stuff. Its interesting to look at the dosages used in the various studies (25mg/d = no suppression) (100-150mg/d = suppression in a minority) (300-450mg/d (wtf?) = suppression). Can you conclude from this that the liklihood of suppression is dosage dependent?
Also, I remember reading somewhere that Proviron cant cause significant muscle gain since DHT (thats what mesterolone basically is, right?) has an internal regulation mechanism. Could using it, though, help to prevent muscle loss during PCT if combined with something like GH or slin? Or would any benefit be simply to the libido and through its anti-e properties which, as you say, can be gotten with other substances?
04-10-2004, 07:52 PM #11
Proviron is 1 methyl DHT, so it's mainly androgenic . It'll contribute to muscle hardness a-la winny, but not to the same extent. pct is such a critical period....your sole goal should be getting your endogenous testosterone production as fast as possible to preserve the hard-earned gains during your cycle. I won't use anything that'll jeapordize this goal. During a cycle, I see no good reason not to use proviron, but post cycle, it seems too much of a potential risk. Inevitably, some will say, "I use proviron during pct, and it works fine". Yes, that doesn't mean that substituting something else won't work better.
As for its anti-aromatase properties, there aren't any real good studies. You can't argue that it doesn't keep off water though....real-world results tell us that.
Proviron will have essentially the same actions as DHT, considering the similar structure
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1984 Mar;58(3):467-72. Related Articles, Links
The intracellular control of aromatase activity by 5 alpha-reduced androgens in human breast carcinoma cells in culture.
Perel E, Stolee KH, Kharlip L, Blackstein ME, Killinger DW.
Four cell lines, each derived from a primary tumor from a patient with breast carcinoma, were grown to confluence in alpha-Minimum Essential Medium with 15% fetal calf serum and incubated for 24 h with [3H]androstenedione. The two lines (SA and PP) with the lowest formation of estrone and estradiol (less than 0.1% conversion) were the most active in the formation of the 5 alpha-reduced androgen metabolites androsterone (AND), 5 alpha-androstanedione (5 alpha-A-dione), and dihydrotestosterone (DHT). The two lines with the highest aromatase activity (DM and MD) had the lowest formation of 5 alpha-reduced metabolites. To determine if the 5 alpha-reduced androgen metabolites formed within the breast carcinoma cells could influence aromatase activity, the MD line was further studied. After 24-h preincubation with AND, DHT, or 5 alpha-A-dione at concentrations of 10(-6), 10(-7), and 10(-8) M, [3H]androstenedione was added to the culture medium, and aliquots were removed at 0, 4, 8, and 24 h. An 8-h incubation period was found to be optimum for inhibition studies. In comparison to control levels of estrone (2.5%) and estradiol (0.35%) formation, inhibition of aromatization was evident with all three compounds at 10(-8) M, with 5 alpha-A-dione producing the greatest inhibition (50%). At 10(-7) M, inhibition ranged from 45% (AND) to 70% (5 alpha-A-dione), and at 10(-6) M, inhibition was greater than 90% for each compound. 5 alpha-A-dione produced slightly greater inhibition than AND or DHT at each concentration tested. Since each of these compounds was capable of inhibiting aromatization, the cumulative effect of these 5 alpha-reduced metabolites could be an important factor in the intracellular regulation of aromatase activity.
It surely appears that suppression, if it does occur, is dose-dependent.
Ldex is ideal for an AI during pct, since it's the "mildest" AI (that we use) and it has no known adverse effects on test production.....quite the contrary actually.
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