Lesbian and Gay parents?!?!?!?

[Dude-Man]

I think it's ok. I'd rather grow up with two moms and no dad than one mom and no dad.

[DADDYDBOL]

but the real question is, does simply being aroused mean that he is gay? no, the way you know he is a homosexual is because he has sex with someone of his own gender - it is a choice of sexual act - when I was younger, I would get wood sitting at church and now when I am on test, I have iron just resting on my pillow - does that mean I was having a perversly irreligious relationship with the pastor and his preaching or that I seek a monogomous relationship with flame retardant objects? no, I think not - moreover, if I am tempted to steal something and yet do not, am I a thief? again, no -

it is the act of my will that decides my character, not the impulse of my emotion - perhaps you believe that indeed we are nothing but animals and therefore whatever ass we sniff suffices for the purpose, but since I do believe that we are made in the image of God and that freewill is the ultimate determinate of our destiny, I must disagree

And the bible is as relevant to me today as it was when the letters were written - you mistakenly forget that our constitution and indeed the very creed of freedom that our country now enjoys sprang from its principles - indeed, while circumstances and technology has changed, people have not - a thief is still a thief, a murderer still a murderer

wow...that is one of the best posts I have ever read....

[einstein1905]

Again, very good points.

however, there is a distinct difference between spontaneous arousal and arousal and "feelings" of sexual attraction and beyond for a distict individual.

i too believe one's integrity is of utmost importance, but integrity is merely adhering to one's own moral code....following the rules one believes in. So, with different fundamental moralities, two individuals can both exercise the utmost integrity, yet have their actions be distinctly different in the same situations.

The constitution is very similar to the Bible in that it is vague and dated. As such, we've taken it upon ourselves to amend the constitution where we see fit, to accommodate the changing times. However, this is where the Bible and the constitution clearly differ. People fail to adjust scripture for the changing times, and understandably so. Nonetheless, times and situations have changed drastically, and the female subordinance, proslavery, etc has been ignored in recent times by the majority of those that follow the Bible, written off as "dated". So, it ultimately is up to the free will of the reader/follower to determine what, in the Bible, is to be ignored and what is to be treated as dogma.

We can always go back to the idea that any sexual act NOT intended for procreation is "wrong" as per the Bible, but then we're all standing on the same side of right and wrong.

but the real question is, does simply being aroused mean that he is gay? no, the way you know he is a homosexual is because he has sex with someone of his own gender - it is a choice of sexual act - when I was younger, I would get wood sitting at church and now when I am on test, I have iron just resting on my pillow - does that mean I was having a perversly irreligious relationship with the pastor and his preaching or that I seek a monogomous relationship with flame retardant objects? no, I think not - moreover, if I am tempted to steal something and yet do not, am I a thief? again, no -

it is the act of my will that decides my character, not the impulse of my emotion - perhaps you believe that indeed we are nothing but animals and therefore whatever ass we sniff suffices for the purpose, but since I do believe that we are made in the image of God and that freewill is the ultimate determinate of our destiny, I must disagree

And the bible is as relevant to me today as it was when the letters were written - you mistakenly forget that our constitution and indeed the very creed of freedom that our country now enjoys sprang from its principles - indeed, while circumstances and technology has changed, people have not - a thief is still a thief, a murderer still a murderer

[VIXI]

i guess this subject does infact leave me a little torn...being that with my religious beliefs and upbringing...I know it tells me this is wrong...but what do you do when you love two people so much and only wish them true happiness...and you know your last place is to judge anyone?...i also know that premarital sex is a sin...and yet though I am a practicing christian...it just yeah....like i said makes for a few internal struggles...

[Hometown Hero]

Imagine what kids in school would do to a kid that had 2 gay dads. If anyone found out he would be humiliated to the extreme and probably lead to suicide one day. Thats what happens in these kind of abnormal environments

Ok im interested.....

That happens in the movies...it's called drama...it really isn't that big of a deal anymore...not in these times...

Alright... as far as my personal opinion is concerned I see absolutely no problem with it at all. As long as the parents, whatever sexual orientation they may be, provide a wholesome loving environtment for their children to grow up in. I do see posible problems in not having a mixed gender preferance in the home, although plenty of single mothers have raised their children to excel. I do feel however that what Diablo is saying does hold water. I personaly witnessed a kid go through this at my highschool and it was very traumatic for him. He was the adopted child of a gay uncle who ran a hair salon and lived with his gay lover. The kid cought so much hell over it at school that he ended up transfering to a private boarding school in another state to avoid further problems. VIXI im not trying to say you dont have a point sweetie, but I think sometimes we forget how ruthless children can be to one another. Things are slowly changing but it will take time to avoid scenerio's like this completely. I just feel really sorry for any kids that have to take sh*t over something they can't change. Its only a matter of time before somebody get's pushed to far and they comes to school with a .45 and start target practice. It's hard to take a side on this argument, but if I had to put a vote in, I would vote against it. I see more benefits to having a mixed gender home for a child, and lets not skew the facts... the child is the issue here... what's best for the child... not gay parents who want to raise one.

[Quake]

This is from the American Pschological Association.

"Not a single study has found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents.

Rees (1979) administered the Bem Sex Role Inventory (BSRI) to 24 adolescents, half of whom had divorced lesbian and half of whom had divorced heterosexual mothers. The BSRI yields scores on masculinity and femininity as independent factors and an androgyny score from the ratio of masculinity to femininity. Children of lesbian and heterosexual mothers did not differ on masculinity or on androgyny, but children of lesbian mothers reported greater psychological femininity than did those of heterosexual mothers. This result would seem to run counter to expectations based on stereotypes of lesbians as lacking in femininity, both in their own demeanor and in their likely influences on children.

http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

There's one contradiction for you. Are you telling me that being more feminine is not a problem or a "disadvantage" for a teenage boy growing up in an average environment and going to an average school?

[Quake]

Again I say, how do you choose to be aroused by another man?

This may seem a little OTT, but what about those who are aroused by animals? Or worse? Are you saying that this cannot be recognised as "wrong" because there's nothing they can do about their dick getting hard or their pussy getting wet?

Are these psychological problems that can be dealt with? Or should it be accepted and integrated as a "norm" in society?

The bottom line on this one is that it will never be a "norm", it will always be an "alternative" "minority" life style for whatever reasons.

[Testsubject]

This may seem a little OTT, but what about those who are aroused by animals? Or worse? Are you saying that this cannot be recognised as "wrong" because there's nothing they can do about their dick getting hard or their pussy getting wet?

Are these psychological problems that can be dealt with? Or should it be accepted and integrated as a "norm" in society?

The bottom line on this one is that it will never be a "norm", it will always be an "alternative" "minority" life style for whatever reasons.

Your right on the money brother.

[Testsubject]

Also for everyone who thinks its OK, look at it this way, 50 years ago if you were gay it WAS wrong and now, 50 years later, people have gotten so used to it that they DO consider it normal and people think your weird if you think its not normal. Now tell me this, if someone was to start having sex with there own birth mother (now I know its obviously been done before but we will leave this out of the equation), it would be considered wrong and bad and gross and this person would probably end up in jail, but what about 50 years from now when 1000s of people think it ok and normal to have sex with thier own birth mother, are you going to tell me you just have to accept these people and that thier no different that any one of us?????? Judging by the comments on this thread you people will accept these people!!!, If something happens for long enough, it seems to me that people just begin to think its normal but in reality its WRONG!!!!!

[Mart651]

I have given this example before.

My neighbor is gay and his lover and him decide to adopt a 1 year old child. The child is loved and treated very well. His parents are good to him and teach him right and wrong. He sees his parents love each other. Not goping and stuff but kisses good night and holding hands. That kind of stuff.

Now this child and my son are now say 4. This child decides he is curious about sex. So he gets my son to go down to the creek and starts trying some gay stuff on him. Not the childs fault. This is right to him but to me, this is enough to get his parents killed. I feel that strongly about protecting my child. So natural or not. The kid would go threw his life parentless.

[Testsubject]

I have given this example before.

My neighbor is gay and his lover and him decide to adopt a 1 year old child. The child is loved and treated very well. His parents are good to him and teach him right and wrong. He sees his parents love each other. Not goping and stuff but kisses good night and holding hands. That kind of stuff.

Now this child and my son are now say 4. This child decides he is curious about sex. So he gets my son to go down to the creek and starts trying some gay stuff on him. Not the childs fault. This is right to him but to me, this is enough to get his parents killed. I feel that strongly about protecting my child. So natural or not. The kid would go threw his life parentless.

See, thats the kind of stuff that drives me crazy, If those were my neighbour they would be having one angry man on their doorstep, people like that shouldnt adopt kids it JUST NOT RIGHT.

[einstein1905]

I have given this example before.

My neighbor is gay and his lover and him decide to adopt a 1 year old child. The child is loved and treated very well. His parents are good to him and teach him right and wrong. He sees his parents love each other. Not goping and stuff but kisses good night and holding hands. That kind of stuff.

Now this child and my son are now say 4. This child decides he is curious about sex. So he gets my son to go down to the creek and starts trying some gay stuff on him. Not the childs fault. This is right to him but to me, this is enough to get his parents killed. I feel that strongly about protecting my child. So natural or not. The kid would go threw his life parentless.

That's well before the age where actions are compelled by sexual feelings....that's just child mimickery. You can make that argument for many other actions (hitting women, swearing, etc), but sexuality isn't learned. take 2 animals at birth, put them in an isolated cage....eventually they will attempt to mate....no need to learn that, it's instinctual, and cleary there is individual variation when it comes to instincts.

[einstein1905]

Also for everyone who thinks its OK, look at it this way, 50 years ago if you were gay it WAS wrong and now, 50 years later, people have gotten so used to it that they DO consider it normal and people think your weird if you think its not normal. Now tell me this, if someone was to start having sex with there own birth mother (now I know its obviously been done before but we will leave this out of the equation), it would be considered wrong and bad and gross and this person would probably end up in jail, but what about 50 years from now when 1000s of people think it ok and normal to have sex with thier own birth mother, are you going to tell me you just have to accept these people and that thier no different that any one of us?????? Judging by the comments on this thread you people will accept these people!!!, If something happens for long enough, it seems to me that people just begin to think its normal but in reality its WRONG!!!!!

and 500+ years ago the world was flat too, right? 200 years ago, it was ludicrous to think a black man should count as a full person in a vote. Our track record is full of such things.

[Mart651]

That's well before the age where actions are compelled by sexual feelings....that's just child mimickery. You can make that argument for many other actions (hitting women, swearing, etc), but sexuality isn't learned. take 2 animals at birth, put them in an isolated cage....eventually they will attempt to mate....no need to learn that, it's instinctual, and cleary there is individual variation when it comes to instincts.

There is a lot better chance that the kid would try something with a little girl if he was raised by a straight couple. Playing doctor is not supposed to be between to boys.

BTW you can't realy compare animal instinct with human. It's not even close.

[einstein1905]

BTW you can't realy compare animal instinct with human. It's not even close.

Absolutely incorrect. the two are virtually identical. The only differences are in the response to those instincts. Humans tend to be dishonest with themselves in order to conform to societal norms.

[Mart651]

Absolutely incorrect. the two are virtually identical. The only differences are in the response to those instincts. Humans tend to be dishonest with themselves in order to conform to societal norms.

Ok. Next time I get a boner when I'm around a goat. I will go **** it so I aint dishonest with myself.

[Quake]

That's well before the age where actions are compelled by sexual feelings....that's just child mimickery. You can make that argument for many other actions (hitting women, swearing, etc), but sexuality isn't learned. take 2 animals at birth, put them in an isolated cage....eventually they will attempt to mate....no need to learn that, it's instinctual, and cleary there is individual variation when it comes to instincts.

All experiences go towards drawing the conclusion. At 4 years of age the child knows no different and has had most experience of seeing two same sex people being intimate with each other, what happens in the same childs head when at 12 years of age they remember their actions as a toddler but now have far more experience and knowledge to compare their thoughts, ideas and beliefs too? By the age of 12 they will have realised that having two daddies or two mommies is not "normal" (although they may not have a real perception of what is normal at this age) and might feel "lost at sea".

The main thing that people do not comprehend are the traumatic experiences of internal struggles, this is what is all too often overlooked. As was posted previously, this whole thing is about the child, not the happiness and love of the parents. Just providing love and lessons doesn't cut it, everyone has their own mind regardless of what they are told by other people.

[Quake]

Absolutely incorrect. the two are virtually identical. The only differences are in the response to those instincts. Humans tend to be dishonest with themselves in order to conform to societal norms.

I did once learn that animals derive no pleasure out of mating, they only do it as they are compelled to due to biological cycles. Whether this belief is maintained today I do not know, but animals DO have a mating "season" whereas humans do it all year round.

[Mart651]

All experiences go towards drawing the conclusion. At 4 years of age the child knows no different and has had most experience of seeing two same sex people being intimate with each other, what happens in the same childs head when at 12 years of age they remember their actions as a toddler but now have far more experience and knowledge to compare their thoughts, ideas and beliefs too? By the age of 12 they will have realised that having two daddies or two mommies is not "normal" (although they may not have a real perception of what is normal at this age) and might feel "lost at sea".

The main thing that people do not comprehend are the traumatic experiences of internal struggles, this is what is all too often overlooked. As was posted previously, this whole thing is about the child, not the happiness and love of the parents. Just providing love and lessons doesn't cut it, everyone has their own mind regardless of what they are told by other people.

You made a great point. What happens as a young child effects you all of your life. Look at the kids that were melosted at 4. For the most part they stay ****ed up all their life.

Same goes for a child who is touched by another child of the same sex. They never forget and they never get over it. They always think they did something wrong and It was their fault.

[Carlos_E]

There's one contradiction for you. Are you telling me that being more feminine is not a problem or a "disadvantage" for a teenage boy growing up in an average environment and going to an average school?

Did you read the link? It says:

"they reported no differences in these areas for sons. Lesbian mothers were no more or less likely than heterosexual mothers to report that their children often played with "feminine" toys such as dolls. In both family types, however, children's sex-role behavior was seen as falling within normal limits."

Where do you see that teenage boys are more feminine?

[Carlos_E]

You made a great point. What happens as a young child effects you all of your life. Look at the kids that were melosted at 4. For the most part they stay ****ed up all their life.

Same goes for a child who is touched by another child of the same sex. They never forget and they never get over it. They always think they did something wrong and It was their fault.

How is that? How do you know your son is not gay and he would be the one to instigate touching between the two of them?

[Mart651]

How is that? How do you know your son is not gay and he would be the one to instigate touching between the two of them?

With all do repect. How bout you **** off. Thats my son and thats not funny.

[Cycleon]

i guess this subject does infact leave me a little torn...being that with my religious beliefs and upbringing...I know it tells me this is wrong...but what do you do when you love two people so much and only wish them true happiness...and you know your last place is to judge anyone?...i also know that premarital sex is a sin...and yet though I am a practicing christian...it just yeah....like i said makes for a few internal struggles...

There is a vast difference between judging a person and judging an action that the person does -

equally, as a Christian you might know that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" - yet it is in recognising that we have sinned that we know we need forgiveness - but when we declare that sin is no longer sinfull, there is no longer any remedy, the same as when you declare that cancerous cells are just a part of the body and just as naturally there as the rest (a bit abnormal to be sure but within statistical limits), no doctor can help you remove them - I also have not been perfect as to pre-marital sex but I recognise that it was wrong and I was weak at the time and with Gods help I will do better in the future - but that does not make it any less sin - it is when we begin to justify sin as "good" because we want to continue in it without guilt we have a real problem - because there can be no cure for someone who thinks themseves perfectly well

and Einsteins statements are all predicated that we are only animals anyway - so you must cast what he says in that frame - yet no animal has an external sense of itself - the Id that is so much discussed in psycology - and while our fleshly forms could have indeed evolved from various lower forms - our souls, as it were, could not have

[Cycleon]

How is that? How do you know your son is not gay and he would be the one to instigate touching between the two of them?

and tho your point is understood - that is very close to crossing the line

[Quake]

You made a great point. What happens as a young child effects you all of your life. Look at the kids that were melosted at 4. For the most part they stay ****ed up all their life.

Same goes for a child who is touched by another child of the same sex. They never forget and they never get over it. They always think they did something wrong and It was their fault.

For most people childhood and teen years are full of fun and care free. For those that have experienced abnormalities or traumatic times life remains a mystery to them for a lot longer, and unless you have personal experience of this or have been friends with someone who has then you just don't realise how different (warped?) the world can seem.

[Carlos_E]

and tho your point is understood - that is very close to crossing the line

It wasn't intended to be. Just a question... not a flame.

[Quake]

Did you read the link? It says:

"they reported no differences in these areas for sons. Lesbian mothers were no more or less likely than heterosexual mothers to report that their children often played with "feminine" toys such as dolls. In both family types, however, children's sex-role behavior was seen as falling within normal limits."

Where do you see that teenage boys are more feminine?

"but children of lesbian mothers reported greater psychological femininity than did those of heterosexual mothers."

Playing with toys is one thing, approach to life is something totally different and far more important.

[Cycleon]

I know but people are "touchy" about touchy with their kids

[Carlos_E]

With all do repect. How bout you **** off. Thats my son and thats not funny.

It wasn't intended as an insult if you took it as such. Obviously I have no problem if my son was gay.

[Mart651]

It wasn't intended to be. Just a question... not a flame.

Lets you and I not discuss this. As I stated in my very first post. I do not want to argue with the same people about the same subject as in a previous thread.
I know where you stand and you know where i stand. No changing our minds.

[Mart651]

It wasn't intended as an insult if you took it as such. Obviously I have no problem if my son was gay.

I refer to my above post.

[einstein1905]

sex, murder, profanity, etc... those are all examples are human instinct. It has been clinically proven that children that grow up in bad environments end up doing sometjhing bad later on in their lives. The same thing that follow with sex. Like Martha said, if his son gets sexual vibes from his neighbors son at a very young age they dont know any better therefore as they get older it will be more of a curiosity then if it never happened at all.

That's very true....children that grow up in bad environments are more prone to grow up and "act out", not necessarily in the same way their parents did though. The point here is......you're making the assumption that having homosexual parents is a "bad environment". That's the whole argument here. I can't agree that just because children are exposed to homosexual relationships in youth, that they'll be more "curious" about them, but even if that were true, curiosity is merely superficial when compared to ones sexual instincts. Being curious about homosexual relations doesn't change your very nature....you're still compelled to pursue the gender to which you are attracted, all curiosities aside.


I guess what I don't understand is the whole man+woman, make babies, propogate, propogate, propogate, as if that's somehow the collective goal of society. Many people here are saying that we are above animals....well, propogation is very primal....that's the ultimate goal of all animals. We, being above animals, should have grander goals. Our "propogation" mentality has led us to an overpopulated, underfed, undereducated, diseased world. The relationships between humans are supposedly much more complex than that of animals

Society's general goals: avoid death, get married (because that's what people do), have babies (because that's what people do), die, repeat cycle.

My goals: Live life with open eyes and an open mind so as to be able to appreciate all there is in the world.......die

[trailrider38]

This thread is way too long to read it all, so if this point has already been made forgive me....

IMO Gays and Lesbians are totally selfish in there pursuit to raise a child... not concerning themselves with the most likely future ridicuol of the innocent child but to rather fulfill thier own lives with the love of a child which biologically is an impossibility in a lifestyle that they have "Chosen" upon themselves...

[mass junkie]

Is their electricity in that cave you live in?

[Quake]

This thread is way too long to read it all, so if this point has already been made forgive me....

IMO Gays and Lesbians are totally selfish in there pursuit to raise a child... not concerning themselves with the most likely future ridicuol of the innocent child but to rather fulfill thier own lives with the love of a child which biologically is an impossibility in a lifestyle that they have "Chosen" upon themselves...

yup, it is a point being discussed at present. People who have posted "pro" gay/lesbian parents all seem to not take the magnitude of this point on board!

[Quake]

The point here is......you're making the assumption that having homosexual parents is a "bad environment". That's the whole argument here.

You cannot possibly say that it is a "normal" environment, not after all we've discussed. The very fact that gay/lesbian parents strive to give their child a "normal" upbringing speaks for itself. They obviously recognise that a "normality" exists, so must on some level accept their own "uniqueness" too. This being recognised, where does the argument stand when addressing the possibilities of the child being at a disadvantage by being brought up by gay/lesbian parents. The disadvantage becomes clearly apparent and recognised without question, even if it is not admitted.

[brian11]

i didnt take the time to read all 4 pages of this thread so forgive me if im repeating, but i am fine with gays marriage and gays in general. I do however take issue with them having children. If you are gay you are choosing a certain lifestyle and for better or worse that lifestyle should not include parenting children. It has nothing to do with them not being good parents, hell they might be better parents then most of the straight ones, but we all know how hard it is for kids to grow up and many are scarred for life bc of experiences when they are young. In the same manner a parent should always take measures to prevent their child from being obese at a young age not only bc of the health factors but bc kids are brutal at that age. A kid with gay parents would no doubt have a real tough time growing up, no matter how much love they have at home!!!

-B-

[Quake]

A kid with gay parents would no doubt have a real tough time growing up, no matter how much love they have at home!!!

-B-

Yup, also valid and in discussion. Thanks for your input!

[einstein1905]

You cannot possibly say that it is a "normal" environment, not after all we've discussed. The very fact that gay/lesbian parents strive to give their child a "normal" upbringing speaks for itself. They obviously recognise that a "normality" exists, so must on some level accept their own "uniqueness" too. This being recognised, where does the argument stand when addressing the possibilities of the child being at a disadvantage by being brought up by gay/lesbian parents. The disadvantage becomes clearly apparent and recognised without question, even if it is not admitted.

Normality is all relative. Certainly it's not "normal", but it's not normal because of the infrequency of it. Relative rarity doesn't imply "wrongness". An extremely high IQ is a relative rarity too, but we don't condemn people that suffer from this, do we?

The "magnitude" of this issue is not because of the issue itself....it's because of people's perceptions of the issue. In the absence of the stigma ascribed to gay parents, children raised in these situations would not suffer the teasing and ridicule that you all seem to be basing your arguments on. We could start a movement proclaiming left-handedness to be "wrong", and eventually those that are left-handed would be ridiculed and their children the same.

The fact is that you can't say one way or the other that if you hadn't been taught that homosexuality is wrong, then you wouldn't see the act as wrong. You'll never know....you can never go back to that completely naive, unprogrammed mindset, where you rely on nothing but your own thoughts and logic to form a conclusion

[brian11]

Perhaps you didnt read my post, I never said that being gay was wrong. It is undeniably in the minority however. Your argument about left handedness doesnt fit in response to the argument we have about the children being ridiculed though because children themselves are left handed. I dont think you know any 10 year old gays! The point we are making is that the child would be teased becasue of his parents not because of something that is wrong with them personally!