Affirmative Action Debate

**D-END** · 11-16-2004, 10:43 PM

I have a debate in my speech 240 class. The debate is on affirmative action.

I want some reasons why or why not

I need reasons why it should or should not be used in College admin, or for jobs.

Please don't start flaming I want this thread to stay unlocked.

Thanks bros

**decadbal** · 11-16-2004, 10:52 PM

im for the better ment of humanity, which ever it is, for AA or against it, i vote that way.

**CarvedFromStone** · 11-16-2004, 11:01 PM

Im gonna have to say im against it bro, i think that it handicaps people. By being submitted as an African American, not because of your intellect or talent. Its saying that being and African American is a handycap wjich is BS. And if submitted to a school because of your race or religion then who says you are quliefied to do the job or pass the classes. Not to mention that its unfair for the students that dont get submitted because of affirmitave action.

**D-END** · 11-16-2004, 11:04 PM

what happened to the other post?

**D-END** · 11-16-2004, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by HULK1732

Im gonna have to say im against it bro, i think that it handicaps people. By being submitted as an African American, not because of your intellict or talent. Its saying that being and African American is a handycap wich is BS. And if submitted to a school because of your race or religion then who says you are quliefied to do the job or pass the classes. Not to mention that its unfair for the students that dont get submitted because of affirmitave action.

affirmative action is:
Race-neutral, gender-neutral assurance against actual discrimination. This is the type of Affirmative Action contemplated by President Lyndon Johnson's Executive Order 11246, in which he sought to ensure that individuals have equal opportunity WITHOUT regard to their race, sex, or ethnicity. In this 1965 Executive Order, President Johnson consistently and repeatedly used the term non-discrimination and never once mentioned racial quotas or preferences. The original, unamended version of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 similarly emphasized race-neutrality and non-discrimination.

it's not: i want to get away from the image of a black or hispanic man with little to no education and no experience getting a white man's job with a degree and experience. It is so companies and schools look at all applicants with similar experience/education equally.

**CarvedFromStone** · 11-16-2004, 11:11 PM

True, but isn't it the case the a black or hispanic man with similar education may be admitted to a college before a white male because of aff. action? i may be wrong, but that was my understanding. I thought that there was a case not to long ago, (in michigan maybe) where being black or hispanic got you an extra point towards admission that whites didn't get. To me that is just bull****, i wouldn't even want that extra point.

**Fat Guy** · 11-16-2004, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by HULK1732

True, but isn't it the case the a black or hispanic man with similar education may be admitted to a college before a white male because of aff. action? i may be wrong, but that was my understanding. I thought that there was a case not to long ago, (in michigan maybe) where being black or hispanic got you an extra point towards admission that whites didn't get. To me that is just bull****, i wouldn't even want that extra point.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/23/sc...mative.action/

Here is the story on Michigan and yeah race, sex and ethnicity plays a key role in A.A. and that is why it is so controversial. A.A. is a component to many university admissions and it is a formula that many universities use for the admission process. In that formula depending on the university’s policy towards A.A., minority groups are given extra points towards their admission process. The argument used is that many minority groups are underrepresented due to historical and cultural oppression and this is a way to even the playing field. I personally do not know if it is the right thing to do or not. I can see valid arguments on both sides of the fence.

**D-END** · 11-16-2004, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by HULK1732

True, but isn't it the case the a black or hispanic man with similar education may be admitted to a college before a white male because of aff. action? i may be wrong, but that was my understanding. I thought that there was a case not to long ago, (in michigan maybe) where being black or hispanic got you an extra point towards admission that whites didn't get. To me that is just bull****, i wouldn't even want that extra point.

yes that is one of my Q's, can AA ever be used in it's purest from which is stated above and will the misguided interpretations of a couple universities cripple the image of what AA is supposed to be.

**D-END** · 11-17-2004, 12:05 AM

bump

**.45Caliber** · 11-17-2004, 12:44 AM

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/

Go to that site. Look under Pre Law OR Students and Graduates. Also, there is a minority topic under pre law. There are a few posts about AA that have been discussed over the last few weeks. That will help you. Although, I didnt read many of them and some of them were just flames. Check it out and search a little. You'll find what you need probably.

**.45Caliber** · 11-17-2004, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by D-END

yes that is one of my Q's, can AA ever be used in it's purest from which is stated above and will the misguided interpretations of a couple universities cripple the image of what AA is supposed to be.

Post that question on that board.

**D-END** · 11-17-2004, 12:46 PM

anyone else ??

**decadbal** · 11-17-2004, 01:06 PM

PM carlos to get a brothers view on it..

**D-END** · 11-17-2004, 01:29 PM

thanks, but the reason I posted on here is because the majority of the members are white. Myself being a black man I would like to know how white people feel about it and if their feelings are based on the stereotypes and hear say of AA rather than what AA atually is and does.

**D-END** · 11-18-2004, 11:45 PM

Bump

**D-END** · 11-20-2004, 01:54 PM

up ya go

**Property of Steroid.com** · 11-20-2004, 02:07 PM

If 2 candidates are equal, then the "tie-breaker" could be race (affirmative action...the tie goes to the minority). Other than that, I think it's foolish.

**1badcamaro** · 11-20-2004, 02:10 PM

affirmative action is complete crap. i think its best man for the job. If that happens to be all white ppl so be it, all black ppl so be it, etc......You dont hire someone because their racial or ethnic group is lacking in numbers in whatever job it is. A perfect example of this is in the movie american history x where the dad says that two white guys didnt get the job because they had to hire minorities over them to keep the numbers more even. And that now he had two guys that werent as good at doing there job backing him up. and PLEASE, do not take this as me being racist, it should be the best man for the job no matter what the color of his skin

**D-END** · 11-20-2004, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by 1badcamaro

affirmative action is complete crap. i think its best man for the job. If that happens to be all white ppl so be it, all black ppl so be it, etc......You dont hire someone because their racial or ethnic group is lacking in numbers in whatever job it is. A perfect example of this is in the movie american history x where the dad says that two white guys didnt get the job because they had to hire minorities over them to keep the numbers more even. And that now he had two guys that werent as good at doing there job backing him up. and PLEASE, do not take this as me being racist, it should be the best man for the job no matter what the color of his skin

i agree, another than that american history x WAS MOVIE.

**decadbal** · 11-20-2004, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by D-END

i agree, another than that american history x WAS MOVIE.

best lesson that movie should teach anyone... there are plenty of reasons to hate anyone from any race, and if yoru dumb enough to hate a race of ppl bc of one person, one day the entire reason you might be alive is bc of someone from that race... i loved that, how he was a nazi, then the black guy kept him from gettin killed in prison when the nazi bitches turned their back on him..

**UrbanLegend** · 11-20-2004, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by 1badcamaro

affirmative action is complete crap. i think its best man for the job. If that happens to be all white ppl so be it, all black ppl so be it, etc......You dont hire someone because their racial or ethnic group is lacking in numbers in whatever job it is. A perfect example of this is in the movie american history x where the dad says that two white guys didnt get the job because they had to hire minorities over them to keep the numbers more even. And that now he had two guys that werent as good at doing there job backing him up. and PLEASE, do not take this as me being racist, it should be the best man for the job no matter what the color of his skin

If anything, you are being 100% non-racist. You are looking at people totally as individuals without putting them in groups to get special treatment. And thats supposed to be what everyone wants. Sadly it isn't though.......

I think affirmative action has its place with giving out government grants for college, etc, but not anywhere else. I'm also suprised it tends to just be white people that get in a hissy fit over this stuff. By allowing, lets say, hispanics to get addmited to colleges with lesser academic credentials is basically saying hispanics aren't smart enough to get in on their own.

Plus it puts people that get in based on lesser credentials at a higher risk for failure, as they may not be as prepared to take on the course work as someone who did better in school.Ditto with the job scenario described from American History X, all these rediculous lawsuits that employees throw for getting fired. While the law does not require businesses to hire incompetants, it doesn't always seem like that.
(Note that I'm only talking about the rediculous lawsuits, I'm not trying to imply that there has never been a justified case about discrimination in the work place.)

I don't know if there are any numbers on that (there probably are for college at least), so if you could find them that would be a great addition to your speech. Go with what the numbers say. If my theory is correct, then you could point it out as a con of affirmative action. If its not, then you could point that fact out as a positive trait of affirmative action.

**decadbal** · 11-20-2004, 03:22 PM

i think in life you should always try to take ppl as they treat you, nothing more... there are ppl from all races and cultures i dislike, but i dont hold that against anyone else of the same race or culture. ppl are ppl, thats all race isnt anything other than evolution and geography..

**Red Ketchup** · 11-20-2004, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by D-END

i agree, another than that american history x WAS MOVIE.

Maybe thats so but that quote is based on reality

"Affirmative action" around here really means "minority quotas".

It means that in many public sector jobs like police, fire and even civil servant they have quotas to fill and regardless of qualifications, and they will fill them because they have to.

That means for a given job (lets say police officer) they have to hire 10 cops this month... the "affirmative action quota" says the force should be x% minorities and we're under that quota, then all the folks hired will be minorities, regardless of if they really are the best qualified or if there are 500 white male applicants better qualified.

I've had it happen to me in the Fire Dept, twice. Same crap happened to an old buddy of mine when he wanted to join the Mounties when he left the army (he was a Military Police instructor 10+ years service, passed all the RCMP admission exams in the top 3% but was turned away because they were only hireing minorities at that time, at least the human resources officer had the balls to tell him the truth)

Whats the peoples reaction? Whats our reaction?

Disgust, distrust and I'd even dare say it CAUSES racism.

I think hireing (or university admissions) should ALWAYS be based on "best person for the job". I don't care what sex colour, religion or ethnic background someone is, only the best qualified person should get a position. And the "two equally qualified candidates" theory is bull, one is ALWAYS better than the other, take the time to find out which has the edge over the other.

Yes in the past there was discrimination... all the good positions went to white males, and if you go further back in the past, it was only white males of a certain social class or caste... but quotas and so called reverse discrimination won't turn back the clock, nor will it fix the errors of the past, it will only CAUSE resentment and racism.

My 2 cents...

Red

**Gorgoroth_** · 11-21-2004, 12:19 AM

Awhile back some college representatives came to my school to try to get seniors to sign up for their college. Well , a good friend of mine went up to the table that the representative from Benedict college was situated at. He asked what the requirements are to attend the school . At first she ignored him , then he asked what classes were offered. she then tooked at him , adjusted her glasses and sneered at him and said " Its not for you " .

benedict college has a reputation for being an " all black " college - and my friend is white . I told my friend he could bitch about it , but he opted not to cause a scene .

**Gorgoroth_** · 11-21-2004, 12:22 AM

Does anyone recall that case that was recently settled out of court.. I forgot which university it was , but this girl sued a school big time because they didn't have room for her - they had to ensure a certain amount of minority students got enlisted despite the fact that she had a 1500 SAT and she was a straight A student throughout highschool . In the end she sued to attend the school and was awarded a disclosed amount of money .

It was a bleep in the news during the summer . one of the bros here probably knows what I am talking about.

***BajanBastard*** · 11-21-2004, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Gorgoroth_

Awhile back some college representatives came to my school to try to get seniors to sign up for their college. Well , a good friend of mine went up to the table that the representative from Benedict college was situated at. He asked what the requirements are to attend the school . At first she ignored him , then he asked what classes were offered. she then tooked at him , adjusted her glasses and sneered at him and said " Its not for you " .

benedict college has a reputation for being an " all black " college - and my friend is white . I told my friend he could bitch about it , but he opted not to cause a scene .

That's sick i wonder what would if the tables were turned?

**statuZ** · 11-21-2004, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Decadbal

PM carlos to get a brothers view on it..

hahahahahahahahah

**BASK8KACE** · 11-21-2004, 12:16 PM

Afirmative action was never meant to give a less qualified minority a job over a more qualified person.

The quotas set by major companies and institution were a quick and ineffective way to deal with the issues of affirmative action that companies and institutions were pressured to address.

At the beginning of affirmative action, underqualifed minorites were thrust into postitions they were not qualified to handle to set them up for failure. This quite effectively fostered the belief that AA only promotes underqualified people.

Afirmative action should be less about getting people in the door of a company or college and more about breaking the vicious socio-economic cycles that have prevented some parts of the minority commuity from getting a good education.

It is futile to open the door at the top of the stairs (into companies and univerisites) when, for the ones who most need the help, the first step to be mounted (basic education, goals and values) is a 500 foot cliff to climb.

The only benefit of AA is to help those minorities who have put in the time and effort to be well-educated and thoroughly qualified get jobs that an equally or a less qualified white person would normally have gotten just because s/he's white.