Hunting shootings - gun problems.

**Scooby1** · 11-23-2004, 01:05 PM

yeah- F*** gun control. and if someone in the UK wants more gun control- WRITE OUR CONGRESSMEN-

so saith scooby

**Elysium** · 11-23-2004, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by scooby122884

yeah- F*** gun control. and if someone in the UK wants more gun control- WRITE OUR CONGRESSMEN-

so saith scooby

What a stupid reply.

Red, where you mention the fact that guns are smuggled from the US to canada, that only strengthens the arguement that stricter gun laws should be enforced within the US. Oh and not ALL guns have had to be registered in Canada, it was not until 2003 that ALL guns had to be registered, up until then there was a few exceptions.

**Scooby1** · 11-23-2004, 01:37 PM

Momma always said "Stupid is what Stupid does"

-Forrest Gump

**Animal Cracker** · 11-23-2004, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by MESSY_UK

Hey all

As many of you may of seen, there was a guy who had an arguement with some people whilst hunting, who then decided to pick off 6 people with his rifle!

I have always made my opinion heard in the past, i dont like guns, they will ultimately only lead to bad things.

The states as the biggest gun related deaths in the world. Surely this event shows how bad a problem there is?

Did you know that less than 1% of all crimes reported last year in the UK were gun related?

Did you know that in the states an average of 90 people are victims to gun related incidents per day!

Actually that is a fallacy- Columbia far exceeds the US in gun deaths every year.

**Elysium** · 11-23-2004, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by BamaSlamma

Actually that is a fallacy- Columbia far exceeds the US in gun deaths every year.

The USA actually has the highest % deaths per 100,000 people. This information is from your own goverment.

**UrbanLegend** · 11-23-2004, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by MESSY_UK

The USA actually has the highest % deaths per 100,000 people. This information is from your own goverment.

Indeed. And do you know who does those killings? Criminals. Criminals who would have guns, one way or another. Taking away people's right to bear arms is leaving them to be defenceless against armed criminals. States with the most gun owners (registered people who are not criminals) have the lowest crime rates. Think about it - you aren't going to rob someone's house if they might be packing heat. Ditto with murder. To curve murder rates down in FL, they leagalized concealed weapons. And what do you know.......the murder rate went down like Tyson with this liscense back.

I do think the US needs somewhat stricter gun laws, but it has more to do with preventative measures regarding accidental shootings than preventing law abiding citizens from purchasing guns. There should also be a limit on how many guns a person can own......but I'm not to clear on the laws around that, so I don't know what needs to be changed or left alone.

PS- Bowling for Columbine is full of factual holes. If thats where you got all of these ideas from, I can help show you the light.

**Elysium** · 11-23-2004, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by UrbanLegend

Indeed. And do you know who does those killings? Criminals. Criminals who would have guns, one way or another. Taking away people's right to bear arms is leaving them to be defenceless against armed criminals. States with the most gun owners (registered people who are not criminals) have the lowest crime rates. Think about it - you aren't going to rob someone's house if they might be packing heat. Ditto with murder. To curve murder rates down in FL, they leagalized concealed weapons. And what do you know.......the murder rate went down like Tyson with this liscense back.

I do think the US needs somewhat stricter gun laws, but it has more to do with preventative measures regarding accidental shootings than preventing law abiding citizens from purchasing guns. There should also be a limit on how many guns a person can own......but I'm not to clear on the laws around that, so I don't know what needs to be changed or left alone.

PS- Bowling for Columbine is full of factual holes. If thats where you got all of these ideas from, I can help show you the light.

At no point in this debate did i say that banning guns would solve the problem, i simply said that making it law to have ALL guns registered would help lower gun crime. Can you not admit that this would help? I know that the states will not give up their guns, and i dont EVER expect them to. I am not suggesting that honest people be restricted from buying arms, im simply saying that if they do, they should have to be registered.

**Elysium** · 11-23-2004, 03:45 PM

Following is someones ideas when it comes to gun control, they are not saying at any point that they should be outlawed, because this is un-realistic. The following passage has some very good ideas, it was written by an American for your information too.

"Should there be a Ballistics Registry for every gun? Critics make four arguments against storing a sample bullet fired by every gun and storing the groove pattern in a computer database.

First, they say it would not cover existing guns. Well, that could be fixed by requiring all sales and gun registration renewals to supply a current sample, e.g., by firing into the sand at your local police station. Gradually, most legal guns would be covered.

Second, they say the pattern on the bullet is changed by time and by deliberate alteration. Many firings will wear the groove pattern, but many guns are not fired that much. Deliberate alterations will often make the gun less accurate, perhaps sparing lives. Perhaps more important, even if the pattern changes, many guns can still be ruled out as possible sources for a bullet, helping people prove they're innocent, just as DNA has freed innocent people even when the guilty party hasn't contributed a sample.

Third, they say a registry would not help when guns are stolen.

No doubt stolen guns are more likely to be used in crime than legal guns, but legal guns are used to commit crimes, and in accidents too. Many gun crimes are crimes of passion, not calculation. Even the records of guns that were stolen can be useful. Perhaps the thief was caught, but not the gun. The thief can be questioned further about what happened to it, and additional penalties could be attached to stealing a gun later used in a crime. If the gun was stolen far away, that may provide clues to the current criminal.

Fourth, they say it is like fingerprinting ordinary people rather than criminals. It is not. The gun is fingerprinted, not the owner. Does the government know the VIN of your car or truck? Of course they do. Why not your gun too?

Yes, a ballistics registry will cost money. So do guns. A registry may aid the solution of many future crimes, speeding justice both for the guilty, and the innocent.

— Tom Trottier"

**UrbanLegend** · 11-23-2004, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by MESSY_UK

Either way, without the guns there would be ALOT less gun related deaths..
Im not saying guns should be outlawed, i would love them to be but i doubt it will happen.

Originally Posted by MESSY_UK

At no point in this debate did i say that banning guns would solve the problem, i simply said that making it law to have ALL guns registered would help lower gun crime. Can you not admit that this would help? I know that the states will not give up their guns, and i dont EVER expect them to. I am not suggesting that honest people be restricted from buying arms, im simply saying that if they do, they should have to be registered.

Well, then why do you believe the things you do? If you don't think that banning guns would solve the problem, why do you want them gone?

I do think all guns should be registered in some way. The problem is, the system that is used could end up with a lot of crimes being charged to those who didn't commit them. Say my gun was registered in my name ,etc, and you used it to kill Michael Moore. The gun would be traced back to me. My whole "it was stolen by the idiot Messy UK" line wouldn't help me much then. Its like if they saw my car driving away from a crime scene, I would be the primary suspect.

I think that the background checks they do now are good and thorough, they just need to have limits so that people can't sell guns to criminals. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that someone without a felony can own as many guns as they want.............

**Elysium** · 11-23-2004, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by UrbanLegend

Well, then why do you believe the things you do? If you don't think that banning guns would solve the problem, why do you want them gone?

I do think all guns should be registered in some way. The problem is, the system that is used could end up with a lot of crimes being charged to those who didn't commit them. Say my gun was registered in my name ,etc, and you used it to kill Michael Moore. The gun would be traced back to me. My whole "it was stolen by the idiot Messy UK" line wouldn't help me much then. Its like if they saw my car driving away from a crime scene, I would be the primary suspect.

I think that the background checks they do now are good and thorough, they just need to have limits so that people can't sell guns to criminals. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that someone without a felony can own as many guns as they want.............

Read what you just quoted again, i stated i would like all guns gone. I didnt suggest this however as the solution to the current problem, my statements are a solution, the comment about how i would like them gone is personal opinion.

Did you read my last post, the quote from a letter that was written to your goverment? Surely you agree with the fact that all guns should be registered? I dont see how you could disagree with this, the fact that nearly every country that allows guns enforces laws to have them all registered, and the fact that they have significantly lower % deaths surely shows this works? Or are you telling me that the USA is an exception, that the people are different and trying to help them is simply a lost cause?

**Red Ketchup** · 11-23-2004, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by MESSY_UK

Red, where you mention the fact that guns are smuggled from the US to canada, that only strengthens the arguement that stricter gun laws should be enforced within the US.

Maybe so, but I am not American and I am not in the US so I can't do squat about it. I do know that the majority of gun crimes in Canada are commited with ILLEGAL weapons, no amounts of registrations or laws will change that.

Originally Posted by MESSY_UK

Oh and not ALL guns have had to be registered in Canada, it was not until 2003 that ALL guns had to be registered, up until then there was a few exceptions.

Sorry, thats inacurate. All guns have always needed to be registered in Canada, you could not get a firearm without an FAAA (Fire Arms Acquisition Authorisation) certificate before 2003. The only difference is that before 2003 guns were registered in authorised dealers ledgers and at your provincial police station, wereas now with the new Gun Registry law, the federal government keeps a billion dollar database which does the same thing.

And in the end, the gun incident statistics have not changed...

Red

**Elysium** · 11-23-2004, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

Maybe so, but I am not American and I am not in the US so I can't do squat about it. I do know that the majority of gun crimes in Canada are commited with ILLEGAL weapons, no amounts of registrations or laws will change that.

Sorry, thats inacurate. All guns have always needed to be registered in Canada, you could not get a firearm without an FAAA (Fire Arms Acquisition Authorisation) certificate before 2003. The only difference is that before 2003 guns were registered in authorised dealers ledgers and at your provincial police station, wereas now with the new Gun Registry law, the federal government keeps a billion dollar database which does the same thing.

And in the end, the gun incident statistics have not changed...

Red

Ahh ok, sorry i retract that statement then. You mention that the statistics havent changed, the thing is so, the problem if it is at all a problem in Canada is not nearly as severe as in the USA. Canada doesnt really have a major problem, the US does.

**UrbanLegend** · 11-23-2004, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by MESSY_UK

Read what you just quoted again, i stated i would like all guns gone. I didnt suggest this however as the solution to the current problem, my statements are a solution, the comment about how i would like them gone is personal opinion.

I understand. I was simply pointing out to you why I wrote what I wrote in my earlier post. You would like all guns gone, and I brought up security reasons as to why they shouldn't be eliminated.

Originally Posted by MESSY_UK

Did you read my last post, the quote from a letter that was written to your goverment? Surely you agree with the fact that all guns should be registered? I dont see how you could disagree with this, the fact that nearly every country that allows guns enforces laws to have them all registered, and the fact that they have significantly lower % deaths surely shows this works? Or are you telling me that the USA is an exception, that the people are different and trying to help them is simply a lost cause?

I was pointing out one of the fallacies which most concerns me involved with the type of registration you were talking about. If you read MY LAST POSt, then you would see that I would like guns registered in some way too.

You must also not be very familiar with the laws you bring up. They haven't accomplished what you say they have. http://www.crpa.org/pressrls051502.html

What I would like to see are the numbers that compare the amount of criminal activity involved with gun ownership BEFORE the registration compared with after, as well as the number of gun related deaths/injuries, etc. I would bet its around the same. I would also bet that Canada has always had (and probably always will) lower death rates from firearms. The reason being, they don't have the same amount of idiots that we do here in the US.........not for lack of trying though, thats for sure

**RussianVodka** · 11-23-2004, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by MBaraso

People kill people...Guns don't kill people bro.

100% agree. I LOVE guns.

**RussianVodka** · 11-23-2004, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by MBaraso

People kill people...Guns don't kill people bro.

100% agree. I LOVE guns.

**SickNasty** · 11-23-2004, 09:02 PM

hmm i wonder how the nazis conquered poland so easily with almost no casualties...
maybe because all their guns where registered. the nazis knew exactly what homes to take out before any resistance could be organized.

blaming guns is just a copout, the problem is much deeper (americans kill because _____.)

this is like taking tums for repeat acid indigestion, it only treats the symptoms not the problem

**UrbanLegend** · 11-24-2004, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by SickNasty

blaming guns is just a copout, the problem is much deeper (americans kill because _____.)

this is like taking tums for repeat acid indigestion, it only treats the symptoms not the problem

That is a really good analogy, and it applies to just about every problem in American society.

**Soldier of Misfortune** · 11-24-2004, 02:20 PM

Gun control means hitting your target.

The day we loose the 2nd Amendment is the day the 2nd Revolution begins.

**DADDYDBOL** · 11-24-2004, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Maraxus

Guns dont kill people, bullets kill people. Charge like 5 grand for bullet, that way you avoid deaths, and if someone dies from a bullet, they sure had it coming.

lol....

we have guns and toothbrushes.....get over it.....its never going to change

**marka** · 11-24-2004, 04:40 PM

Gun control wouldn't have prevented this crime. I dont think any law would have prevented it. He's a nut that went bezerk. Too bad, he would have made a fine postal worker.

I think everyone should have a right to bear arms.

How could I not protect my residence without the security from my.177 caliber, Model: "Pump It Up Young Man" by Daisy underneath my pillow

**muff-chaser** · 11-24-2004, 04:54 PM

messy, you just keep playing around with your photoshop software, i shot a deer today with a 308 and it felt good!!!!!!!

***BajanBastard*** · 11-24-2004, 05:00 PM

Americians seem too love violence and guns.......look at the movies, idols (mobsters, gangters etc) there is a thread here that asked what kind of gun you owned and 99% of the bros who posted had 3 or more! That's nuts! Guns don't kill people, people kill people is right but americians love packin' heat.

**worldtraveln** · 11-26-2004, 02:22 PM

While registering all guns would allow law enforcement to solve gun crimes easier, I don't see how it would actually stop the violence. I think a better approach is to focus on the reasons for gun violence. It is common knowledge that most gun crimes occur from uneducated lower income people. It is not the average middle class soccer mom who is doing drive-bys. This is why the government should focus its assets on developing education and jobs for high risk individuals. If this is done their tendancies to commit crimes declines althogether. This would help to reduce all crimes, which in proportion seems to be high for such an industrialized country as the USA. Thats right the USA has a high murder rate, violent crime rate, robbery rate, etc. Focusing on just gun control is really a narrow point of view. Its alot like the antacid analogy posted before, you are just treating the sypmtoms and not the problem.

**Panzerfaust** · 11-26-2004, 03:04 PM

I wrote a ten page essay for my Comp II class, it had all kinds of grammatical errors in it, it was'nt my fault but my pencils.

Swellin · 11-26-2004, 03:19 PM

As was previously mentioned, there are no rational gun control laws that would have prevented this particular incident. This was done by a luantic with a hunting rifle that would be a "hunting rifle" by any gun control standard in any country. We have ample gun control laws here, many of which are not enforced. This goes to the court system being swamped and not capable of dealing with the current case load.

As for the gentleman who mentioned "99% of the bro's who replied had 3 or more," quantity is no measure in this. Why should there be a limit? There are different types of game animals that require different types of weapons. For instance...deer sized animals at long range...deer sized animals at close range...dove...ducks....quail(entirely different than duck weapons)...elk...moose/bear....Eland...Cape Buffalo....gang banger.
You get the point. I have something for everything but the cape buffalo, and I have quite a few different ones for each of the others. As a firearm owner for 31 years (I owned two at birth), I have never used one because I felt it gave me power and the urge to act upon some sinister inclination.

In the words of the psychopath Ted Nugent, "If guns kill people, then all of mine are defective."

**abstrack** · 11-26-2004, 07:01 PM

well it was hunting season and shotguns dont require a gun permit. All you need to be is 18 and you can purchase a shotgun. there were 9 people shot and 6 of them died so far. All of them were shot in the back from what I read. In that little town I guess that the Loatian population and the caucasian population have collided more than once with racial issues. The loatian man said the people who he shot we tauning him and threatning him. i dont condone what he did, but I still dont think the answer is tighter gun control. There are accidents every hunting season with people getting shot in the woods by trigger happy hunters.

AnabolicAlien · 11-26-2004, 07:12 PM

having more gun control would be like banning car shows to stop dwi's....

A.A.

**abstrack** · 11-26-2004, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by AnabolicAlien

having more gun control would be like banning car shows to stop dwi's....

A.A.

exactly.

**cjp85** · 12-04-2004, 12:31 AM

I also read somewhere that the guys who was doing the shooting was a felon. If true, under Federal law, he couldnt even hold a gun. But its the law abiding citizens that should be disarmed.
Check these links out:
http://users.adelphia.net/~redneck131/audio/caller.mp3

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FAQs/De...aspx?Section=1