Holidays means Family: Good or Bad? Authentic?

**Mike Dura** · 04-17-2006, 03:07 PM

Whenever there be a holiday, you're expected to spend time with family. "Blood is thicker than water" someone droned. I'm more swayed by the argument that family is a myth. By this I mean families create a kind of family mythology about itself and it's members. One common pattern is one in which there is a black sheep (the outsider) and the other members are relatively more cohesive (the insiders). In fact, it's been argued that the "black sheep" or the family scapegoat functions to stabilize the rest of the family system or build cohesion.

What seems to follow from this family mythology is scripts and politics and if you see through it...it actually seems like an absurd game or one big "collusion." In fact, if you expand your inquiry transgenerationally (across generations) you can see that the same mythology was in play (with different actors playing the same roles) way before your family put on it's own performance.

Is there anyone out there who has "seen through" their family myth or failed to buy into it? You ever feel fundamentally estranged from your own family and holidays seem like just going through the motions in some inauthentic, histrionic drama?

My family has what I call "emotional ways of understanding." I've learned at a young age that persuading my family members means appealing to them in emotional terms (vs. abstract reasoning). This often means playing into their egos for practical purposes. Not the ideal picture of a family is it?

**Hackamaniac** · 04-17-2006, 03:11 PM

I love my family lol

**taiboxa** · 04-17-2006, 03:15 PM

why are all ur posts SO LONG!!!... i have ADD.. ALWAYS add a cliffnotes 2ndary post for tai!

**Carlos_E** · 04-17-2006, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Dura

Whenever there be a holiday, you're expected to spend time with family. "Blood is thicker than water" someone droned. I'm more swayed by the argument that family is a myth. By this I mean families create a kind of family mythology about itself and it's members. One common pattern is one in which there is a black sheep (the outsider) and the other members are relatively more cohesive (the insiders). In fact, it's been argued that the "black sheep" or the family scapegoat functions to stabilize the rest of the family system or build cohesion.

What seems to follow from this family mythology is scripts and politics and if you see through it...it actually seems like an absurd game or one big "collusion." In fact, if you expand your inquiry transgenerationally (across generations) you can see that the same mythology was in play (with different actors playing the same roles) way before your family put on it's own performance.

Is there anyone out there who has "seen through" their family myth or failed to buy into it? You ever feel fundamentally estranged from your own family and holidays seem like just going through the motions in some inauthentic, histrionic drama?

My family has what I call "emotional ways of understanding." I've learned at a young age that persuading my family members means appealing to them in emotional terms (vs. abstract reasoning). This often means playing into their egos for practical purposes. Not the ideal picture of a family is it?

Where did you copy and paste this from

**Mike Dura** · 04-17-2006, 05:37 PM

LoL. If I copied it from a source I would have cited that source. That's my writing but the general idea is nothing new. It's called the family systems perspective. In fact, I think there's a popularized reading introducing family systems called "Dancing with Anger" by Harriet Lerner if I remember correctly. Never read it but I know it was a common read. I have an M.S. in psychology so I'm versed in all the relevant theories including basic Darwin. You cynical doubting Thomas you!!!

Originally Posted by Carlos_E

Where did you copy and paste this from

**steve0** · 04-17-2006, 07:59 PM

A copy or not, it's till intresteing at that, my mothers sides of the family is best we all get along i have never witnessed any arguments to date, maybe some miscomunications or bickering between my mother and her mother, but that is normal, Now on the other hand if you take my step family that my Father married into you could not stand to spend a single hour with these people nothing but drama and adrgueing about mostly money, they all somke and drink and wont associate with you if you dont like to go get hammard on a weekly basis for the mostpart, and that is why i dont visit much !!

**guest589745** · 04-17-2006, 08:04 PM

Dude, you write about some werid shit lol.

**Mike Dura** · 04-17-2006, 08:35 PM

Yeah, I think talking and theorizing about family is interesting. Frankly, I've never been a happy camper with my family. I've been marginalized from the herd and I guess not being a part of the "group think" I'm motivated to look in from the outside to try to make sense of it. That's a big part of my attraction to philosophy and psychology. A spontaneous yet primative clan my family is. They remind me of Ewalks (star wars).

Essentially, a family environment like mine is not unlike my experience running a farm in the summers up at New Paltz. The sheep had a definate pecking order with an alpha male named Rufus. Rufus even tried to dominate me but I wouldn't have it. While grazing I hopped down from a tree and beat him with a wifle ball bat. He never charged me again after that. I earned my right to be the alpha male of the farm. This kind of Gengis Kahn activity is seen commonly within the family - especially a primative one. I've seen it even worse than mine. I should feel lucky.

Originally Posted by steve0

A copy or not, it's till intresteing at that, my mothers sides of the family is best we all get along i have never witnessed any arguments to date, maybe some miscomunications or bickering between my mother and her mother, but that is normal, Now on the other hand if you take my step family that my Father married into you could not stand to spend a single hour with these people nothing but drama and adrgueing about mostly money, they all somke and drink and wont associate with you if you dont like to go get hammard on a weekly basis for the mostpart, and that is why i dont visit much !!

**guest589745** · 04-17-2006, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Dura

A spontaneous yet primative clan my family is. They remind me of Ewalks (star wars).

While grazing I hopped down from a tree and beat him with a wifle ball bat. . .

Are you even being serious??

**Teabagger** · 04-17-2006, 11:51 PM

we can only hope he is..............................................no t!!!!

**Psychotron** · 04-18-2006, 07:04 AM

lol i dunno man. i love my family, my imediate ones. We never got real close to our cousins aunts uncles etc. the only ones who are outcast in my family are the ones who have lost my parents trust, so i dont really have a black sheep in the family.

**Mizfit** · 04-18-2006, 07:23 AM

i love my sister and i can con her inot just about anything, she adores me..

The rest of them.. not sure about.. i like other ppls families, better than my own

**Mike Dura** · 04-18-2006, 08:07 AM

I'm serious about both. I do have a primative family - reflection and self-reflection is not one of their habits. They act very "naturally" out of simple immediate feelings and instant gratification. On the postive side, their sponaneity gives them charm.

And yes, I did beat Rufus the alpha male with a wiffle ball bat. I had to because I he was charging me and I had to establish dominance. He weighed about 1000 pounds padded with thick wool. A wiffleball bat will give him a sting at best and the sound of the plastic smashing would give him a scare. It was a single incident that prompted me to "wiffle" him. I was loading some fertilizer into the back seat of my car and I bent over to tie my shoes. Suddenly, I hear the gallop of this beast and I froze in fear. He head butted my ass and I flew into one side of my car and out the other side (both doors were open). In a flash, I knew I had to get Ghenges Kahn with him. Hence, the wiffle ball bat. So that what Rufus did to me:

Became what I did to him:

Ultimately, it proved to be a succesful strategy.

Originally Posted by Skullsmasher

Are you even being serious??

**Mike Dura** · 04-18-2006, 08:11 AM

It's nice that you at least have one family member you're close with. There's nothing like an authentic relationship with a family member not that I would know from experience. Your sister is a twin right? You should post a pic of the two of you together. I would like to see the "double trouble" - that would be a kick! Lol!

Originally Posted by Mizfit

i love my sister and i can con her inot just about anything, she adores me..

The rest of them.. not sure about.. i like other ppls families, better than my own

**NotSmall** · 04-18-2006, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Dura

Whenever there be a holiday, you're expected to spend time with family. "Blood is thicker than water" someone droned. I'm more swayed by the argument that family is a myth. By this I mean families create a kind of family mythology about itself and it's members. One common pattern is one in which there is a black sheep (the outsider) and the other members are relatively more cohesive (the insiders). In fact, it's been argued that the "black sheep" or the family scapegoat functions to stabilize the rest of the family system or build cohesion.

What seems to follow from this family mythology is scripts and politics and if you see through it...it actually seems like an absurd game or one big "collusion." In fact, if you expand your inquiry transgenerationally (across generations) you can see that the same mythology was in play (with different actors playing the same roles) way before your family put on it's own performance.

Is there anyone out there who has "seen through" their family myth or failed to buy into it? You ever feel fundamentally estranged from your own family and holidays seem like just going through the motions in some inauthentic, histrionic drama?

My family has what I call "emotional ways of understanding." I've learned at a young age that persuading my family members means appealing to them in emotional terms (vs. abstract reasoning). This often means playing into their egos for practical purposes. Not the ideal picture of a family is it?

Mike go back to making threads about sex, they make more sense than this, what exactly is this "myth" you're on about, who ever said that families were perfect?

**Mike Dura** · 04-18-2006, 08:27 AM

You can be sure that I'll eventually get back to sex....it's what's on my mind mostly.

By myth I mean something that's not literally true. A myth such as Jesus died, rose from the grave, came back and gave us hope that death is ultimately not the end but the beginning of our adventure into the realm of bliss and justice.....or UBAMBA the snake pounded the earth and the mountains formed...etc. These are scripts that give us meaning and self-esteem. The alternative is.....you live life, you suffer, you witness the absurd - the randomness of things - that good things happen for bad people and bad things happen to good people...the lack of justice.....and after all of this you die and your flesh decays as you become maggot food. What's more appealing to you - the myth (or the vital lie) or the reality (your destiny to be maggot food and participate in a life with no inherent meaning)? My point is we need illusion - we need mythology.

So families mythologize themselves too. One myth may read, "We are a gentle, noble, intelligent people"....this is an idea a family can have about themselves dispite a consistent behavior that belies this idea (or myth)." But these illusions or delusions function to give us meaning and self-esteem and we need that to get through life - it gives us a sense of equanimity so we can function practically from day to day. We need illusion.

Originally Posted by NotSmall

Mike go back to making threads about sex, they make more sense than this, what exactly is this "myth" you're on about, who ever said that families were perfect?

**NotSmall** · 04-18-2006, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Dura

You can be sure that I'll eventually get back to sex....it's what's on my mind mostly.

By myth I mean something that's not literally true. A myth such as Jesus died, rose from the grave, came back and gave us hope that death is ultimately not the end but the beginning of our adventure into the realm of bliss and justice.....or UBAMBA the snake pounded the earth and the mountains formed...etc. These are scripts that give us meaning and self-esteem. The alternative is.....you live life, you suffer, you witness the absurd - the randomness of things - that good things happen for bad people and bad things happen to good people...the lack of justice.....and after all of this you die and your flesh decays as you become maggot food. What's more appealing to you - the myth (or the vital lie) or the reality (your destiny to be maggot food and participate in a life with no inherent meaning)? My point is we need illusion - we need mythology.

So families mythologize themselves too. One myth may read, "We are a gentle, noble, intelligent people"....this is an idea a family can have about themselves dispite a consistent behavior that belies this idea (or myth)." But these illusions or delusions function to give us meaning and self-esteem and we need that to get through life - it gives us a sense of equanimity so we can function practically from day to day. We need illusion.

LMAO - You sir are a rambler!

A) I did not ask for an explanation of what a myth is, I am not a retard.

B) There is no mysterious mythology surrounding my family

, we are just a group of people that are related to one another, I like some of them more than I like others but we look out for one another because we are kin.

**pepperoni** · 04-18-2006, 09:56 AM

this is some of the corniest stuff i've ever read.

**NotSmall** · 04-18-2006, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by pepperoni

this is some of the corniest stuff i've ever read.

Would you mind changing your avatar? - It's making me hungry.

**pepperoni** · 04-18-2006, 10:10 AM

lol damn it does look pretty good eh. The way the cheese and peperoni and just cooked together with such perfection, on top of such nice thick dough.

**NotSmall** · 04-18-2006, 10:14 AM

I'm tellin ya man, it really detracts from your posts, I can barely read em cos my eyes are drawn to the pizza, its like trying to look a hot girl in the eye when shes wearing a low cut top.

**Mike Dura** · 04-18-2006, 11:37 AM

I like to write and I'm interested in the topic of family. Put the two together and you get a plenty of wind. Some may find it interesting some may wonder what the hell I'm talking about while others may encourage me to stick to my specialty of "sextalk."

I would say that most would feel the same way - that there is no "mythology" going down with their family. My point is that this mythology is perceived as "the scheme of things" as opposed to myth. Similarly, Christians wouldn't call their beliefs mythology. To do so would undermine the myth and with that the foundation of your sense of meaning and self-esteem. But if you're motivated to look close, you may very well uncover the scripts you (and your family members) live by. I wouldn't recomend it if your self-satisfied.

Originally Posted by NotSmall

LMAO - You sir are a rambler!

A) I did not ask for an explanation of what a myth is, I am not a retard.

B) There is no mysterious mythology surrounding my family

, we are just a group of people that are related to one another, I like some of them more than I like others but we look out for one another because we are kin.

**NotSmall** · 04-18-2006, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Dura

I like to write and I'm interested in the topic of family. Put the two together and you get a plenty of wind. Some may find it interesting some may wonder what the hell I'm talking about while others may encourage me to stick to my specialty of "sextalk."

I would say that most would feel the same way - that there is no "mythology" going down with their family. My point is that this mythology is perceived as "the scheme of things" as opposed to myth. Similarly, Christians wouldn't call their beliefs mythology. To do so would undermine the myth and with that the foundation of your sense of meaning and self-esteem. But if you're motivated to look close, you may very well uncover the scripts you (and your family members) live by. I wouldn't recomend it if your self-satisfied.

I think I get it now - the Matrix has us!

**Mike Dura** · 04-18-2006, 11:41 AM

Wow. That's a good analogy. I love the matrix because it makes that very point. Than again, the metaphor can serve a number of different points.

Originally Posted by NotSmall

I think I get it now - the Matrix has us!

**Mike Dura** · 04-18-2006, 11:45 AM

And to use that Matrix analogy most would choose the blue pill of serenity versus the red pill of hard truth which suggests that we are inherently deluded and that there is a relm transcendant of the matrix (or the family myth that our self-esteem and meaning is based on). Like Neo, I choose the red pill and fight against the mechanical Christians and my own kin. But this battle occurs within me as I keep it civil with my kin who have chosen the blue pill.

**NotSmall** · 04-18-2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Dura

Wow. That's a good analogy. I love the matrix because it makes that very point. Than again, the metaphor can serve a number of different points.

What are your favourite halucinogens?

**Mike Dura** · 04-19-2006, 09:13 AM

Shrooms help me get into that deep rabit hole where I can see the matrix from the outside.

Originally Posted by NotSmall

What are your favourite halucinogens?

***D7M*** · 04-19-2006, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Dura

Whenever there be a holiday, you're expected to spend time with family. "Blood is thicker than water" someone droned. I'm more swayed by the argument that family is a myth. By this I mean families create a kind of family mythology about itself and it's members. One common pattern is one in which there is a black sheep (the outsider) and the other members are relatively more cohesive (the insiders). In fact, it's been argued that the "black sheep" or the family scapegoat functions to stabilize the rest of the family system or build cohesion.

What seems to follow from this family mythology is scripts and politics and if you see through it...it actually seems like an absurd game or one big "collusion." In fact, if you expand your inquiry transgenerationally (across generations) you can see that the same mythology was in play (with different actors playing the same roles) way before your family put on it's own performance.

Is there anyone out there who has "seen through" their family myth or failed to buy into it? You ever feel fundamentally estranged from your own family and holidays seem like just going through the motions in some inauthentic, histrionic drama?
My family has what I call "emotional ways of understanding." I've learned at a young age that persuading my family members means appealing to them in emotional terms (vs. abstract reasoning). This often means playing into their egos for practical purposes. Not the ideal picture of a family is it?

yes to the bold. Except my (older) bro

**Mike Dura** · 04-19-2006, 10:01 AM

Yeah, I can relate. It's weird. It's like your on a completely different wave length and although you seem to speak a common language...it might as well be greek vs. grunts. At least that's how it is in my family. My mother has a very limited capacity for empathy and her responses seem to have the sensibility of a rock. I don't blame her. She came from a crazy upbringing. She's profoundly self-oriented and very concrete in her thinking so abstract reasoning has no place in an interaction with her - like banging your head against that rock. I've learned to keep it simple with her. Yet, sometimes she's so offensive. It's not intentional but god....it's a challenge to tolerate it.

Originally Posted by derek7m

yes to the bold. Except my (older) bro

**Mike Dura** · 04-19-2006, 10:02 AM

Just venting out!

**Liftnainez** · 04-19-2006, 04:11 PM

I dont agree with this theory or concept at all.. family is family and should be put over everybody.. i dont mean to be a dick but how do u even think of this stuff.. just doesnt make sense to me..

**Mike Dura** · 04-19-2006, 10:15 PM

You're not being a dick. It sounds like family is important to you. That's great. I wish I had positive feelings about my family. I just try to make the most out of it. Everyone has their own experiences and feelings about families. I didn't think of this stuff (if you are refering to the theory). Research psychologists did.

Originally Posted by Liftnainez

I dont agree with this theory or concept at all.. family is family and should be put over everybody.. i dont mean to be a dick but how do u even think of this stuff.. just doesnt make sense to me..

**Liftnainez** · 04-20-2006, 07:06 AM

sup mike.. yea i didnt want to come off sounding like a dick.. you are correct- family is very important to me.. thats the way i was raised and thats what i believe is the right way- to be close and trust family.. you cant trust anybody except family.. (close relatives) i wish you sucess for the future with you and your family..

**Mike Dura** · 04-20-2006, 09:59 AM

I have to admit, I envy you. Frankly, I've always wished I had what you have. Most of my friends come from strong, principled families and they owe so much to that fact. My exgirlfriend, for example, has a great family and fortunately for her she knows that. Other friends under estimate their families influence and take full credit themselves. My ex's parents always did the right thing for all of their children and I'm inspired by that. I'm not pining for perfection here or over idealizing them but they are a people of strong character and that can only benefit a developing person.

But family for many is a great disapointment. For those people, it's probably best to try to have a fair and balanced understanding and most of all don't blame them - it's probably best to understood any family member's behavior as a legacy across generations - the bad dream from which we try to awake. One Christian idea that I like (I'm an atheist) is to have compasion and to love those who have hurt you (e.g., love thy enemy/adversary). This is not an easy thing to do but if you aspire in the direction you will gain - so says the great teacher. Ultimately, you are responsible for your own destiny dispite any anvantage or disadvantage or any kind of emotional luggage that thwarts you. That's the lesson I've learned for myself. Just like in a high rep set of squats, the question becomes will you sink or swim? Just suck it up baby!

Originally Posted by Liftnainez

sup mike.. yea i didnt want to come off sounding like a dick.. you are correct- family is very important to me.. thats the way i was raised and thats what i believe is the right way- to be close and trust family.. you cant trust anybody except family.. (close relatives) i wish you sucess for the future with you and your family..

**Liftnainez** · 04-20-2006, 10:35 AM

Hey Mike.. Yes I def realise that there are many people who have suffering relationships with their family.. that is a true shame.. But you can change all that. I dont know if you are married or want to be married but one day you can raise a family of your own and change the past your dread. You can do it brotha.. You seem like a very intellgient determined guys.. good luck 2 u.. and def keep swimming..

**Mike Dura** · 04-20-2006, 11:00 AM

Thanks for the encouragement and the kind words. Yeah, challenging situations force you to become creative (or destroy you). I am determined but I've got a ways to go! Thanks

Originally Posted by Liftnainez

Hey Mike.. Yes I def realise that there are many people who have suffering relationships with their family.. that is a true shame.. But you can change all that. I dont know if you are married or want to be married but one day you can raise a family of your own and change the past your dread. You can do it brotha.. You seem like a very intellgient determined guys.. good luck 2 u.. and def keep swimming..