Philosophical question

[crash187ct]

As for God making a rock he cannot move, I left that question behind when i realized I do not have a high enough level of consciousness to understand what God is...and even if someone told me what God is, I don't think I have the mental capacity to appreciate the answer...

^^ Exactly my thoughts and response to that question... we are not equipt to understand somethi8ng as complex and mu,ltilayerd as the divine

most philosophers have faulty theories, but its the refining of all those fallible ideas that lead them to the refined theories...

Zeno i believe had many mathmatical tricks that were disproved

Many people would date the religion issue. Some would argue (from a christianity perspective) that we understand who God is, but many times cannot understand his actions. But that is a whole other ball park.

[ShnouzedUp]

Both...but it's more philosphical in the fact that your mind and the plant outside your window are made up of the exact same building blocks, so in essence everything is just particles....so what, then, are the indentities we carry made of. Who are "we"? What makes you, "you"? If you could not see, taste, touch, hear, or smell, would you even exist outside of your mind? What would your world be? your mind?

thats some deep shi+ man..

[Psychotron]

That's not a correct statement, that is a false way of thinking based on old scientific thinking. It goes back to the old saying "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound?" Expand your thinking a little bit. How can there be a sound if no one is able to hear it? How can the sound even exist if it cannot be experienced?

Reality is only as real as your mind makes it out to be, this is a fact. In a black hole, time and space have no meaning, so does that mean reality in a black hole is different than reality here on earth? Of course not..what it DOES mean is that your definition of what is real is so predefined by mankind's limited history here on earth that it is impossible to comprehend anything differently. Yes your foot would break here, but would it break elsewhere? What if you could use your mind to heal your foot? No one knows!

Remember 500 years ago, reality was a flat world that was the center of the universe.

As far as animals go, when was the last time you saw an animal commit suicide? (Outside of it's instinct of course). Animals are not capable of cognitive decision making. You can never convince an animal that it will die one day, because they very fabric of what makes up an animal's mind is self preservation. Hell even HUMANS have trouble accepting it...look at all the cigarette smokers! We KNOW this shit will kill us and we still do it!

Only humans have the ability to communicate the idea of the future. That is what makes us self aware. By understanding that you can change the outcome of your own reality simply by acting a certain way or doing a certain thing, you become aware of the idea that what you do NOW will change what happens THEN. This is being aware of your own presence, hence the term "self-aware".

the tree makes a sound because i saw a tree fall yesterday and it made a sound.

my dog can tell the future, he predicts my movements, that no different then how we look at the future.

[aadrenaline]

this has always interested me along with history and science...more so philosophy, life, how things work.

i never went to college after highschool and im thinking of going to further my chances of being successful in life. now of course we all need to make money and the more the merrier..what type of jobs are openly availible in this feild? and do they pay well enough to support a family and live comfortably cause if so i may have to go major in this field.
i mean if money wasnt an issue id go to school and just take classes to learn more about it.
thanx

[Kärnfysikern]

BTW, the many worlds theory is what is demonstrated by the "cat in the box" no? Schroedingers cat I think it's called?

well kind of. Schrödingers cat was a way for Schrödinger to demonstrate how absurd it would be if quantum superposition happened to macroscopic objects.

It didnt give raise to the many worlds interpretation. But if you follow the many worlds interpretation it would mean the cat dies in alot of worlds and stay alive in alot of others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

[Phreak101]

the tree makes a sound because i saw a tree fall yesterday and it made a sound.

my dog can tell the future, he predicts my movements, that no different then how we look at the future.

Your dog doesn't know it's going to die, you do.

[Terinox]

Here's a question I've often wondered about, and I think it would still be valid if you believe there is a God (who controls virtually everything, and no God).

The thing that I've wondered, is that with all the laws and rules in the world (refering only to the physical ones), why is it not possible to break some of the most fundamental and oldest ones?

Now I know to some extent it is possible, and the example to give about what I'm talking about is things like gravity, physical matter, etc... Like, there are people who have CLAIMED they can bend something with the power of their mind, or that they can walk on fire without burning the bottom of their feet (this one I've actually seen, so I know it exists or whatever), but what about other laws and stuff.

Like gravity, why is gravity there? Is that just a universal law? Created by God? Does he control all laws, that each time you try to break the laws, he interferes and sets it straight. Stupid example, but, I let go of an apple in mid air, and I want it, with my thoughts and beliefs, to just float in the air, but it won't, it will fall straight to the ground because of gravity. Just one example, but in the bigger sense, these rules, there must be a way to break off from them...no?

I mean, if everything is technically man made, we have created so much, in the big sense of it, society, language, etc., it's all there because we needed an explanation. Yes, gravity is a physical scientific fact. But, an apple fell on Newtons head, so he explained it, by stating there is gravity, and everyone can prove it in simple ways (drop an object), or complicated mathematical ways with equations and what not. But still...rules (I think), should always have a way of being broken, or denied or something...hard to explain.

Gravity just one example used, cuz it's an easy one to use, but my question applies to all other laws/rules as well.

Ok, not even sure exactly how I'm explaining this or if it even makes any sense so I'm gonna stop here :P

[Phreak101]

Here's a question I've often wondered about, and I think it would still be valid if you believe there is a God (who controls virtually everything, and no God).

The thing that I've wondered, is that with all the laws and rules in the world (refering only to the physical ones), why is it not possible to break some of the most fundamental and oldest ones?

Now I know to some extent it is possible, and the example to give about what I'm talking about is things like gravity, physical matter, etc... Like, there are people who have CLAIMED they can bend something with the power of their mind, or that they can walk on fire without burning the bottom of their feet (this one I've actually seen, so I know it exists or whatever), but what about other laws and stuff.

Like gravity, why is gravity there? Is that just a universal law? Created by God? Does he control all laws, that each time you try to break the laws, he interferes and sets it straight. Stupid example, but, I let go of an apple in mid air, and I want it, with my thoughts and beliefs, to just float in the air, but it won't, it will fall straight to the ground because of gravity. Just one example, but in the bigger sense, these rules, there must be a way to break off from them...no?

I mean, if everything is technically man made, we have created so much, in the big sense of it, society, language, etc., it's all there because we needed an explanation. Yes, gravity is a physical scientific fact. But, an apple fell on Newtons head, so he explained it, by stating there is gravity, and everyone can prove it in simple ways (drop an object), or complicated mathematical ways with equations and what not. But still...rules (I think), should always have a way of being broken, or denied or something...hard to explain.

Gravity just one example used, cuz it's an easy one to use, but my question applies to all other laws/rules as well.

Ok, not even sure exactly how I'm explaining this or if it even makes any sense so I'm gonna stop here :P

You're well on you're way to getting lost down the rabbit hole my friend!

[Phreak101]

thats some deep shi+ man..

Work's been slow, my mind is wandering

[Kärnfysikern]

We have never ever seen a case of a natural law beeing broken. I dont like the use the word natural law though.

Better to express it like there has never been a case where a verified physics theory has been proven wrong. All theories have its range of application though. Newtonian physics for instance is only valid during slow speeds and in weak gravity fields, general relativity doesnt seem to be valid inside of black holes and possibly not for VERY big ranges(like galactic sizes and up), quantum mechanics is only valid in microscopic systems.

But within the ranges those theories are verified they have never been "broken" so to speak.

I wouldnt think of it as god making sure the laws are obeyed. Its just how nature works.
Think of it like this, some things are logicaly impossible. You can not for instance make a square circle or a straight curve. I propose that "breaking" the laws of nature is equaly impossible as making a square circle.
I dont know how this holds up logicaly since I am no philosopher though.

But a circle is a circle and gravity is gravity. Not obeying gravity in my mind is like trying to make a square circle. Its trying to break the nature of reality.

[Phreak101]

We have never ever seen a case of a natural law beeing broken. I dont like the use the word natural law though.

Better to express it like there has never been a case where a verified physics theory has been proven wrong. All theories have its range of application though. Newtonian physics for instance is only valid during slow speeds and in weak gravity fields, general relativity doesnt seem to be valid inside of black holes and possibly not for VERY big ranges(like galactic sizes and up), quantum mechanics is only valid in microscopic systems.

But within the ranges those theories are verified they have never been "broken" so to speak.

I wouldnt think of it as god making sure the laws are obeyed. Its just how nature works.
Think of it like this, some things are logicaly impossible. You can not for instance make a square circle or a straight curve. I propose that "breaking" the laws of nature is equaly impossible as making a square circle.
I dont know how this holds up logicaly since I am no philosopher though.

But a circle is a circle and gravity is gravity. Not obeying gravity in my mind is like trying to make a square circle. Its trying to break the nature of reality.

Ive always thought that myself. God is simply what brings it all together...kinda like Pi with a circle.

Wouldn't our natural "laws" only be valid in our area of the galaxy? I'd imagine there are areas in the universe that simply don't follow these laws because of varying circumstances (very strong gravity field, converging galaxies, etc)?

[Kärnfysikern]

Ive always thought that myself. God is simply what brings it all together...kinda like Pi with a circle.

Wouldn't our natural "laws" only be valid in our area of the galaxy? I'd imagine there are areas in the universe that simply don't follow these laws because of varying circumstances (very strong gravity field, converging galaxies, etc)?

Nah all observations indicate that all of the observable universe follows the same laws.

Circumstances doesnt change the laws, they just change the manifestation of the law so to speak.

the same laws govern the electric field around a electron and the electromagnetic field around a electric wire. But at first glance it might not look like it is the same thing at all.

There are some physcisist that speculate that the fundamental constants of nature has changed though in the time since the big bang. But so far no observation supports that.

[Phreak101]

Nah all observations indicate that all of the observable universe follows the same laws.

Circumstances doesnt change the laws, they just change the manifestation of the law so to speak.

the same laws govern the electric field around a electron and the electromagnetic field around a electric wire. But at first glance it might not look like it is the same thing at all.

There are some physcisist that speculate that the fundamental constants of nature has changed though in the time since the big bang. But so far no observation supports that.

What about the flow of time? What causes time to go forward? If I can move any direction in space, why not time?

[Kärnfysikern]

What about the flow of time? What causes time to go forward? If I can move any direction in space, why not time?

Thats a question I dont have a answere to
I dont think there is any answere.

[thegodfather]

We have never ever seen a case of a natural law beeing broken. I dont like the use the word natural law though.

Better to express it like there has never been a case where a verified physics theory has been proven wrong. All theories have its range of application though. Newtonian physics for instance is only valid during slow speeds and in weak gravity fields, general relativity doesnt seem to be valid inside of black holes and possibly not for VERY big ranges(like galactic sizes and up), quantum mechanics is only valid in microscopic systems.

But within the ranges those theories are verified they have never been "broken" so to speak.

I wouldnt think of it as god making sure the laws are obeyed. Its just how nature works.
Think of it like this, some things are logicaly impossible. You can not for instance make a square circle or a straight curve. I propose that "breaking" the laws of nature is equaly impossible as making a square circle.
I dont know how this holds up logicaly since I am no philosopher though.

But a circle is a circle and gravity is gravity. Not obeying gravity in my mind is like trying to make a square circle. Its trying to break the nature of reality.

Johan I disagree. Basically because I believe if people have the cognitive sense to be able to imagine a law being broken, for instance an apple being able to float in the air, then it is in fact capable of floating in the air. What I mean to say is...........if you can think it, it is possible..

If these laws were unable to be broken in any way I dont believe the human mind would be able to fathom a way for them to be broken. Therefore I believe that the apple cannot float in the air because at the present time we dont know how to make it do such a thing.

[Kärnfysikern]

Johan I disagree. Basically because I believe if people have the cognitive sense to be able to imagine a law being broken, for instance an apple being able to float in the air, then it is in fact capable of floating in the air. What I mean to say is...........if you can think it, it is possible..

If these laws were unable to be broken in any way I dont believe the human mind would be able to fathom a way for them to be broken. Therefore I believe that the apple cannot float in the air because at the present time we dont know how to make it do such a thing.

Interesting point of view. That kills my square circle idea because it is impossible to even imagine a square circle.

I belive we will someday maby be able to manipulate gravity perhaps. Just like I belive we will be able to somehow travel faster than light. But imo if wé manage to do that we wont be breaking any laws, we will just have found more complete theories that allow such thing to happen.

Im not sure if you mean you think we will be able to do it with technological means or with pure mindpowder???