Study on Prayer Healing and Results.

**Serotonin** · 08-30-2007, 02:33 PM

So, my latest read was The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Don't bother reading reviews on it because its a book about atheism so Dawkins is always being slammed by religious people, whether they read his book or not. Personally, I'm an atheist and this book was like a breath of fresh air for me.

Anyway, there was a part that discussed this study that was conducted on prayer and healing that was funded by a Christian organization, the Templeton Foundation. The results speak for themselves. (Kind of old and sorry if you already read it)

http://www.americanchronicle.com/art...articleID=7484

God doesn't care if you're sick.

**Psychotron** · 08-30-2007, 03:17 PM

Not sure if it's the same one, but I think the results showed that those who knew they were being prayed for actually ended up having more complications.

At the moment I am a believer, but that faith is diminishing, and it had nothing to do with what other people said it all came about from my studying of scriptures. I can't believe with my heart that which my mind can not accept. That isn't to say though that I am just giving up, but there are things that I can't bring myself to believing.

**5ifthCitizen** · 08-30-2007, 03:26 PM

check out minutes 10-35 or so on this video. makes me think a little differently about the religion that has been imposed on most of us. in before the lock lol

**Serotonin** · 08-30-2007, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Psychotron

Not sure if it's the same one, but I think the results showed that those who knew they were being prayed for actually ended up having more complications.

At the moment I am a believer, but that faith is diminishing, and it had nothing to do with what other people said it all came about from my studying of scriptures. I can't believe with my heart that which my mind can not accept. That isn't to say though that I am just giving up, but there are things that I can't bring myself to believing.

Yea, that was an interesting part of the study. The Dr.'s mentioned it could have been related to stress the individuals felt based off of their "need" to get better for the sake that people were praying for them. However one interprets it, that is quite an unusual outcome and certainly worth some consideration.

I understand what you feel though Psycho. My entire family is composed of DEVOUT Christians and when I was in my young teens I planned on going to seminary at Lincoln Christian College.

Luckily, I picked up a book one day called "The Will to Power" by Nietzsche and that pretty much got me going toward many other philosophy books. After joining college and studying chemistry and biology to a much greater depth, as well as other religions, I was able to purge the religion, or rather the conditioning my family put me through, out of my life. I'm a very empirical and rational person by nature anyways so I always had an IMMENSE amount of doubt that I tried to ignore for the sake of being a shitty believer. :P

**Psychotron** · 08-30-2007, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Serotonin

Yea, that was an interesting part of the study. The Dr.'s mentioned it could have been related to stress the individuals felt based off of their "need" to get better for the sake that people were praying for them. However one interprets it, that is quite an unusual outcome and certainly worth some consideration.

I understand what you feel though Psycho. My entire family is composed of DEVOUT Christians and when I was in my young teens I planned on going to seminary at Lincoln Christian College.

Luckily, I picked up a book one day called "The Will to Power" by Nietzsche and that pretty much got me going toward many other philosophy books. After joining college and studying chemistry and biology to a much greater depth, as well as other religions, I was able to purge the religion, or rather the conditioning my family put me through, out of my life. I'm a very empirical and rational person by nature anyways so I always had an IMMENSE amount of doubt that I tried to ignore for the sake of being a shitty believer. :P

Right now I am filled with so much doubt it is amazing. Though I came to the point a month back where I decided I just don't accept much of any of it. I would share with everyone my personal thoughts rambling that I wrote during this time but it might offend some people.

I tell you though since I began to doubt and move on from believing I was a bad person for doubting I have become a much happier individual.

***Doc.Sust*** · 08-30-2007, 05:17 PM

having doubts is human and we should have doubts, nothing wrong with having trouble excepting things that arent exactly tangible or in front of our faces, but having faith in any higher power IMO is a good thing,the world cannot be fully explained by scientific fact and theory. sometimes you have to read btwn the lines or think "outside of the box" just because you dont see something or it isnt 100% guaranted to be does not make any of it is impossible. to what extent, who knows, but back to the study at hand, i cant believe that prayer could be bad, if all else fails, why not? ts worth a shot

**Psychotron** · 08-30-2007, 06:18 PM

I suppose it gives you some psychological comfort. I should say I hold to the notion that there is a God, but I am having a hard time that Christianity as it is today is the correct way to him. I would say I lean towards a Deistic viewpoint on God then one shown by revelation.

I should say that I prayed for truth and I think it came to me, so perhaps the problem is people arent really looking for the truth, but are just accepting what is. I can not do that when it does not make any sense to me. C.S. Lewis made a cool statement about prayer and it went something along these lines: Perhaps the reason why God does not respond or why he responds with No is because what youre asking makes no sense to God. That is, perhaps youre asking how many seconds there are in an inch or something silly like that.

In any matter I have stopped prayer for the most part, I got to the point where it seemed like I was not even getting a No, but just a nothing. I should say it's not like God talks to you haha, so I don't even know. I have this problem with saying that when something good happened it was because I prayed for it to occur. Well whether I pray or not it seems to happen if I want it to. I don't know anymore lol I have been reading a lot of C.S. Lewis and Paul Tillich lately.

**Serotonin** · 08-30-2007, 06:28 PM

A great book by Lewis is "Mere Christianity." Another good read is "The Great Divorce." Two of my favorite books still to this date. It kind of eludes to the deist side of Lewis.

Check them out man, both are very good if you're unsure of your faith.

**Lexed** · 08-30-2007, 06:34 PM

im a believer in evolution serotonin but some things are just unexplainable

**Renesis** · 08-30-2007, 06:54 PM

I never understood this. In religion you are taught that God gave you life and he can take it away. So lets say God has decided it is your time to go through some kind of illness, THEN YOU ARE GONNA FREAKING DIE!! Praying to someone who has decided you are going to die isn't going to change anything. Again this is if you even believe in such things.

***Doc.Sust*** · 08-30-2007, 07:12 PM

chirstianity is far from perfect, i agree with you psychotron, i believe it is very flawed. one eason is because of the interference of humans that pretend to be an extension of god and make up and change silly rules and tell you what is true and what is not

**Psychotron** · 08-30-2007, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Renesis

I never understood this. In religion you are taught that God gave you life and he can take it away. So lets say God has decided it is your time to go through some kind of illness, THEN YOU ARE GONNA FREAKING DIE!! Praying to someone who has decided you are going to die isn't going to change anything. Again this is if you even believe in such things.

Another thing I do not understand about the teaching of the Bible. There really does not seem to be a point of supplication in prayer, that is requests from God. Whatever is going to happen is going to happen no matter what you ask, that is God(according to christian and jews) already knows everything that will happen. So it's not like youre changing God's decision. I however can see the need to confess your wrong doings and give praise to God. Though I do not even do that anymore.

**Amorphic** · 08-30-2007, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Psychotron

Another thing I do not understand about the teaching of the Bible. There really does not seem to be a point of supplication in prayer, that is requests from God. Whatever is going to happen is going to happen no matter what you ask, that is God(according to christian and jews) already knows everything that will happen. So it's not like youre changing God's decision. I however can see the need to confess your wrong doings and give praise to God. Though I do not even do that anymore.
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I agree. The bible is just too outdate to have any sway in the modern world. Believing in a higher power is one thing, but to blindly follow something that has been spoonfed to you without questioning it is too much for me. I like to question, look to alterior options and wonder why/how the universe works, not have some priest regurgitate the same readings that have been accepting since the dawn of time.

**sonnygll** · 08-31-2007, 02:00 AM

I LOVED the God Delusion. Excellent book. Just the thought of a world without religion gives me wood. Or maybe it's just the test...

**Kale** · 08-31-2007, 04:01 AM

I am a devout Agnostic. I will believe it when I see it !!! I was brought up a Roman Catholic and if ever there was a fvcked up religion that has to be it.

**smokeyd** · 08-31-2007, 08:00 AM

someone said it doesnt make since, well you cant see it or feel it and sometimes it doesnt make since, but i think thats why its called faith because you gotta have faith because you cant understand and see all things... just my 2cents

**dwaynewade** · 08-31-2007, 08:13 AM

all i believe in is faith and willpower...

a few good reads IMO... "Conversations with God... Book I" "Tao Te Ching" "The Celestine Prophecy" "The Zen of All Beliefs"

**Lexed** · 08-31-2007, 08:16 AM

whats Tao Te Ching about?

**kfrost06** · 08-31-2007, 08:43 AM

God does not believe in atheist therefore atheist do not exist.

**Psychotron** · 08-31-2007, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

God does not believe in atheist therefore atheist do not exist.

That is the most obsurd thing ever. "Atheist does not believe in God therefore God does not exist."

**Lexed** · 08-31-2007, 09:24 AM

lol owned

**Serotonin** · 08-31-2007, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by dwaynewade

all i believe in is faith and willpower...

a few good reads IMO... "Conversations with God... Book I" "Tao Te Ching" "The Celestine Prophecy" "The Zen of All Beliefs"

YES! Coincidentally, the Tao Teh Ching is sitting about 9 inches from my left hand right now. I LOVE that book. You think about how long ago it was written and how much powerful insight the authors had. They easily rival that of 90% of the US population today.

**Serotonin** · 08-31-2007, 01:46 PM

Here Lexed... this is verbatim from the back of my translation of the Tao.

"Written more than two thousand years ago, the Tao Teh Ching, or "The Classic of the Way and Its Virtue," has probably had a greater influence on Asian thought than any other single book. It is also one of the true classics of the world of spiritual literature.
Traditionally attributed to the near-legendary "Old Master," Lao Tzu, the Tao Teh Ching teaches that the qualities of the enlightened sage or ideal ruler are identical with those of the perfected individual...." and it goes on.

Worth checking out if you're open to new things. Number 24 is one of my favorites...

One on tip-toe cannot stand.
One astride cannot walk.
One who displays himself does not shine.
One who justifies himself has no glory.
One who boasts of his own ability has no merit.
One who parades his own success will not endure.
In Tao these things are called "unwanted food and extraneous growths,"
Which are loathed by all things.
Hence, a man of Tao does not set his heart upon them.

**Lexed** · 08-31-2007, 01:58 PM

looks like a really good read im gonna try to find a ebook of this

**nyjetsfan86** · 08-31-2007, 09:59 PM

while i was in basic training i went to a christian science church service which is a religion based on the power to heal through prayer its actually very interesting

**notus** · 09-01-2007, 07:42 PM

I used to be preacher and missionary but lost my faith from studying the scriptures. I haven't read the bible in about 2.5 years.

Originally Posted by Psychotron

Not sure if it's the same one, but I think the results showed that those who knew they were being prayed for actually ended up having more complications.

At the moment I am a believer, but that faith is diminishing, and it had nothing to do with what other people said it all came about from my studying of scriptures. I can't believe with my heart that which my mind can not accept. That isn't to say though that I am just giving up, but there are things that I can't bring myself to believing.

**Psychotron** · 09-01-2007, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by notus

I used to be preacher and missionary but lost my faith from studying the scriptures. I haven't read the bible in about 2.5 years.

That's interesting do you mind pm'ing me what happened or what was so revealing?

**Serotonin** · 09-02-2007, 09:01 AM

What pushed me over the edge and out of faith was nothing more than taking calc, organic chemistry, and human physiology in college.

After you start to get a full understanding of how things truly work based off of mathematical laws, and the natural behavior of atoms... the tumblers just fall into place in your brain. You realize how imperfect life and how mistakes happen all the time. You can see how life can form because its the behavior of molecules that gently "push" themselves to be something else over billions and billions of years. What I think hinders most people in understanding evolution is the time span involved. You hear religious people talking of heaven as if its going to be a great retirement but how many of those people have actually sat down and contemplated eternity? Personally, I don't want to be around for eternity... my lifetime seems long and its only been 25 years so far so understanding what 2 billion years can do for evolution takes quite a lot of thought and eternity?... well what could possibly be so great that it would keep you sublime for eternity? Seems to me you'd have to be under a spell for that to be true in which case the free will you had to fight with for your physical life, and also what makes all of religion valid to some point, is thrown out the window. Just never added up to me once I learned more.

edit* after rereading my post I just wanted to add that I started to look at heaven and how its advertised, but it didn't make sense because first, I knew a LOT of atheists to start with or people who, based off Christianities rules, would be going to hell. These were dear cousins and even a brother so I wondered how happy I could really be if I were in heaven and I knew they were in what I was told hell would be like. I'm certain that type of thing would weigh on me for eternity and quite frankly that makes me hate God for setting up this bullshit test with these bullshit rules. What could ANY person do in such a short human lifetime that would warrant eternal suffering like that? Even a person who knew of God and lived a good life but just didn't accept him? Seems like a creator that is omniscient and eternal wouldn't have the petty needs of a jealous human, and I'm not afraid to say it but in today's world it is quite easy to surpass that type of mentality as a human, so surely it isn't the mentality of a God. I've seen believers use this argument far too many times, the threat of hell. All that does in my mind, is reflect very poorly on them and shows a great deal of ignorance and lack of better judgment since something so incredibly disgusting could be construed as a means of convincing someone. James Keenan from TOOL said it best... "There is no love in fear."

**notus** · 09-02-2007, 05:21 PM

Nicely put. Funny because I often think of the TOOL quote you used at the bottom.

Originally Posted by Serotonin

What pushed me over the edge and out of faith was nothing more than taking calc, organic chemistry, and human physiology in college.

After you start to get a full understanding of how things truly work based off of mathematical laws, and the natural behavior of atoms... the tumblers just fall into place in your brain. You realize how imperfect life and how mistakes happen all the time. You can see how life can form because its the behavior of molecules that gently "push" themselves to be something else over billions and billions of years. What I think hinders most people in understanding evolution is the time span involved. You hear religious people talking of heaven as if its going to be a great retirement but how many of those people have actually sat down and contemplated eternity? Personally, I don't want to be around for eternity... my lifetime seems long and its only been 25 years so far so understanding what 2 billion years can do for evolution takes quite a lot of thought and eternity?... well what could possibly be so great that it would keep you sublime for eternity? Seems to me you'd have to be under a spell for that to be true in which case the free will you had to fight with for your physical life, and also what makes all of religion valid to some point, is thrown out the window. Just never added up to me once I learned more.

edit* after rereading my post I just wanted to add that I started to look at heaven and how its advertised, but it didn't make sense because first, I knew a LOT of atheists to start with or people who, based off Christianities rules, would be going to hell. These were dear cousins and even a brother so I wondered how happy I could really be if I were in heaven and I knew they were in what I was told hell would be like. I'm certain that type of thing would weigh on me for eternity and quite frankly that makes me hate God for setting up this bullshit test with these bullshit rules. What could ANY person do in such a short human lifetime that would warrant eternal suffering like that? Even a person who knew of God and lived a good life but just didn't accept him? Seems like a creator that is omniscient and eternal wouldn't have the petty needs of a jealous human, and I'm not afraid to say it but in today's world it is quite easy to surpass that type of mentality as a human, so surely it isn't the mentality of a God. I've seen believers use this argument far too many times, the threat of hell. All that does in my mind, is reflect very poorly on them and shows a great deal of ignorance and lack of better judgment since something so incredibly disgusting could be construed as a means of convincing someone. James Keenan from TOOL said it best... "There is no love in fear."

**lightwaytbaby** · 09-02-2007, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Doc.Sust

having doubts is human and we should have doubts, nothing wrong with having trouble excepting things that arent exactly tangible or in front of our faces, but having faith in any higher power IMO is a good thing,the world cannot be fully explained by scientific fact and theory. sometimes you have to read btwn the lines or think "outside of the box" just because you dont see something or it isnt 100% guaranted to be does not make any of it is impossible. to what extent, who knows, but back to the study at hand, i cant believe that prayer could be bad, if all else fails, why not? ts worth a shot

good post doc.

**notus** · 09-03-2007, 10:58 AM

This is why prayer can hurt. It actually can lead to severe depression. This is what Mother Theresa said "[But] as for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great, that I look and do not see, — Listen and do not hear — the tongue moves [in prayer] but does not speak ..."

As a preacher I found this to be true with almost everyone I counseled, even the spiritual pillars in the church. People get depressed when they can't figure out why god won't help them or can't help them.

Originally Posted by Doc.Sust

, i cant believe that prayer could be bad, if all else fails, why not? ts worth a shot

**Tock** · 09-03-2007, 11:02 PM

An interesting book, circa 1790, is The Age of Reason
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/
I liked it . . . written by one of the US founding fathers . . .

**Serotonin** · 09-04-2007, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by Tock

An interesting book, circa 1790, is The Age of Reason
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/
I liked it . . . written by one of the US founding fathers . . .

Paine and Jefferson were either deists or agnostics but there are some excerpts from historic letters written by both in Dawkins' book and to me it seems like they were simple atheists. It is even more clear they wanted our nations govt. to be secular but look where we are now.