The End of the 1st Amendment-

[thegodfather]

For some odd reason thats beyond my comprehension, this thread I started in the News forum, got no responses. So, at the very least I'm making you aware of two bills which are in the process of being either approved or vetoed. Anyway, it is basically the end to the 1st amendment, and if some of you feel inclined to contact your state representative regarding this bill, I encourage you to do so.




__________________________________________________ _______________
Title: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007

Bill Numbers: H.R. 1955 and S. 1959

Sponsors: Representative Jane Harman (D-CA) and Senator Susan Collins (R-ME)

Bill Summary:
According to supporters, the measure will play an important role in helping government and law enforcement officials understand and prevent domestic terrorism. In a speech on the House floor advocating passage of the bill, Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) -- the coauthor and initial sponsor of the measure -- warned that the next time the U.S. faces a terrorist threat, "my assumption is that many who attack us will already be here, and some will be US citizens." To prevent that attack, she said, the new "legislation will help the nation develop a better understanding of the forces that lead to homegrown terrorism, and the steps we can take to stop it."

Critics of both pieces of legislation allege that the act is a thinly veiled and dangerous attempt to criminalize dissent. Such concern is based on the bills' vague and open-ended language that, critics say, could be used by the government to trample basic rights to free speech and assembly and turn legitimate dissent into thought crimes.


Bill Status:
H.R. 1955 passed the House by a landslide vote of 404-6 on October 23, 2007 (Roll Call Vote 993). The bill has been received by the Senate and was referred to the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

S. 1959 was introduced by Senator Susan Collins (R-ME) on August 2, 2007. The bill was read twice and referred to the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

Our Position:
The John Birch Society opposes the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 as a terribly drafted and badly misnamed bill that is a dangerous assault on both free speech and thought. The Senate should reject the measure.

Among the many problems with this legislation are the definitions, such as these below, which could be applied to criminalize the speech of not only, for example, violent jihadists of Hezbollah, Hamas, and Al-Qaeda who advocate suicide bombing, but also to jail and/or silence American patriots who write or speak out forcefully against a host of issues abortion, gun control, police-state surveillance, illegal immigration, or the Iraq War:

(2) VIOLENT RADICALIZATION- The term 'violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change.

(3) HOMEGROWN TERRORISM- The term 'homegrown terrorism' means the use, planned use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual born, raised, or based and operating primarily within the United States or any possession of the United States to intimidate or coerce the United States government, the civilian population of the United States, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

(4) IDEOLOGICALLY BASED VIOLENCE- The term 'ideologically based violence' means the use, planned use, or threatened use of force or violence by a group or individual to promote the group or individual's political, religious, or social beliefs.
In its section on key findings related to homegrown terrorism, the measure gives lip-service to constitutional rights, but also singles out the Internet and its open market for the flow of ideas and information as part of the problem. According to the measure, "The Internet has aided in facilitating violent radicalization, ideologically based violence, and the homegrown terrorism process in the United States by providing access to broad and constant streams of terrorist-related propaganda to United States citizens."
The unspoken threat implied by that passage is that the government might have to clamp down on free speech online. "At base," wrote retired Col. Dan Smith in Counterpunch, "Harman's proposal seems to be a direct attack on First Amendment rights."

[Z-Ro]

Does not suprise me, just easier to dispatch you if you do not agree.

Its kind of freaky, hope its not a prelude to the Gestapo.

[gixxerboy1]

They worded it vague so it can be used broadly

[Atomini]

I can feel it coming in the air tonight,

oh lord

[Panzerfaust]

Why even bother posting this, can you not tell most Americans give two shits about their consitutional rights. Hell, 90% cannot even begin to tell you what rights they "do" have.

I mean why waste time with that stuff when I can leave the gov't to do it all, they are trustworthy afterall right? I have my brand new car to play with and my new Plasma TV with HD-DVD player. Leave me alone, I'm an American and I have rights (although I don't know what they are).

/sarcasm


People are not going to wakeup until it is to late. How can you defend what is yours if you do not fully understand what it is you are trying to protect?

My new signature:

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

~Henry Ford

[Panzerfaust]

They worded it vague so it can be used broadly

That is the whole point, that way they can bend it however they see fit.

[goose]

How many Amendments do you have?

[Panzerfaust]

^^^A shitload. Around 27 I think? 27th Amendment was ratified in 1992. Hell, could be more?

[Johny-too-small]

Oh please. No offense, but this article is another editorial push to sell some newspapers...don’t give the media so much credit.

The general public may be clueless, however, the Supreme Court and a large % of trial lawyers (esp. criminal) would destroy this bill in no time. These types of bills are written all the damn time. If this bill were ever passed, sooner or later it would be overturned and ruled unconstitutional.

[Kennedy]

Figures.

[Panzerfaust]

Oh please. No offense, but this article is another editorial push to sell some newspapers...don’t give the media so much credit.

The general public may be clueless, however, the Supreme Court and a large % of trial lawyers (esp. criminal) would destroy this bill in no time. These types of bills are written all the damn time. If this bill were ever passed, sooner or later it would be overturned and ruled unconstitutional.

^^^You have to much faith in the gov't. The fact that they are even pushing this shit should make everyone stand up and take notice.

Just because it gets shot down does not mean they will not take it back, revamp it tad and then reintroduce it.

[thegodfather]

Oh please. No offense, but this article is another editorial push to sell some newspapers...don’t give the media so much credit.

The general public may be clueless, however, the Supreme Court and a large % of trial lawyers (esp. criminal) would destroy this bill in no time. These types of bills are written all the damn time. If this bill were ever passed, sooner or later it would be overturned and ruled unconstitutional.

A lot of people said the same things about the Patriot Act. And what do we have now in this country? Government sanctioned torture(Waterboarding), suspension of Habeaus Corpus(prisoners in Guantanamo for 3+ years without any formal charges being brought, Warrantless wire-tapping on all US Citizens... We live in a state of seriously reduced civil liberties. I completely disagree, the Patriot Act is the PRECEDANT for this bill to be passed.

[Johny-too-small]

A lot of people said the same things about the Patriot Act. And what do we have now in this country? Government sanctioned torture(Waterboarding), suspension of Habeaus Corpus(prisoners in Guantanamo for 3+ years without any formal charges being brought, Warrantless wire-tapping on all US Citizens... We live in a state of seriously reduced civil liberties. I completely disagree, the Patriot Act is the PRECEDANT for this bill to be passed.

I understand and agree with you and muriloninja in the current text.

Bush and the White House did an excellent job after 911 in pushing war propaganda on this country. The Patriot Act was passed, however, it is already starting to crumble. I dont believe that the Patriot Act will survive. There is already a huge push to overturn it.

Imo, I dont like what our govt is doing, and I dont believe that they are doing a good job. I agree that this crap is getting out of hand too fast. However, I do think that the Supreme Court will eventually put an end to much of it. My wife is a lawyer and she studied under Chief Justice Roberts this last summer. I guess Im used to hearing this stuff and Im not so concerned about it anymore. Do I have too much faith in our system? Perhaps you might think so. I, on the otherhand, just expect it.

[Amorphic]

whatever the result of it, pushing this kind of legislation is defiently potentially dangerous

[Panzerfaust]

I understand and agree with you and muriloninja in the current text.

Bush and the White House did an excellent job after 911 in pushing war propaganda on this country. The Patriot Act was passed, however, it is already starting to crumble. I dont believe that the Patriot Act will survive. There is already a huge push to overturn it.

Imo, I dont like what our govt is doing, and I dont believe that they are doing a good job. I agree that this crap is getting out of hand too fast. However, I do think that the Supreme Court will eventually put an end to much of it. My wife is a lawyer and she studied under Chief Justice Roberts this last summer. I guess Im used to hearing this stuff and Im not so concerned about it anymore. Do I have too much faith in our system? Perhaps you might think so. I, on the otherhand, just expect it.

It is people like me and you that can stop this. Whether they like it or not, they need us to vote to keep them in office. With that said, I absolutely have no confidence in the electronic voting machines.

The Supreme Court follows the same "master" as the gov't.

"The real rulers in Washington are invisible and excercise power from behind the scenes."

~Felix Frankfurter
U.S. Supreme Court Justice

[Amorphic]

It is people like me and you that can stop this. Whether they like it or not, they need us to vote to keep them in office. With that said, I absolutely have no confidence in the electronic voting machines.

the scandal regarding electronic voting machines is a very long winded one, i very highly doubt they are accurate.

i remember reading back in the 2000 presidential elections that the company that produced the voting machines was republican backed. coincidence? i doubt it

[Logan13]

A lot of people said the same things about the Patriot Act. And what do we have now in this country? Government sanctioned torture(Waterboarding), suspension of Habeaus Corpus(prisoners in Guantanamo for 3+ years without any formal charges being brought, Warrantless wire-tapping on all US Citizens... We live in a state of seriously reduced civil liberties. I completely disagree, the Patriot Act is the PRECEDANT for this bill to be passed.

Do not skew the facts. Prisoners of war have NEVER had the right of habeus corpus. Habeus corpus refers to criminal law, not military law as the two are undeniably seperate. Our own service men and women are subject to military justice as well. Disagree if you must but lets at least be honest about it.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...I2YzBlOGRlNzU=
Congress cannot “suspend” habeas corpus by denying it to people who have no right to it in the first place. The right against suspension of habeas corpus is found in the Constitution (art. I, 9). Constitutional rights belong only to Americans — that is, according to the Supreme Court, U.S. citizens and those aliens who, by lawfully weaving themselves into the fabric of our society, have become part of our national community (which is to say, lawful permanent resident aliens). To the contrary, aliens with no immigration status who are captured and held outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, and whose only connection to our country is to wage a barbaric war against it, do not have any rights, much less “basic rights,” under our Constitution.
"The Constitution does not provide alien enemy combatants detained at Guantanamo Bay with the constitutional right to file a petition for habeas corpus in our civilian courts, and thus Congress may regulate those combatants' access to the courts".

[Panzerfaust]

the scandal regarding electronic voting machines is a very long winded one, i very highly doubt they are accurate.

i remember reading back in the 2000 presidential elections that the company that produced the voting machines was republican backed. coincidence? i doubt it

So you believe they are accurate? If I remember correctly, the company refused to release the source code. I'm just saying they can be rigged easily through a few small lines of code.

[Amorphic]

no no, i am saying they are innacurate. i believe they were rigged.

[thegodfather]

Do not skew the facts. Prisoners of war have NEVER had the right of habeus corpus. Habeus corpus refers to criminal law, not military law as the two are undeniably seperate. Our own service men and women are subject to military justice as well. Disagree if you must but lets at least be honest about it.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...I2YzBlOGRlNzU=
Congress cannot “suspend” habeas corpus by denying it to people who have no right to it in the first place. The right against suspension of habeas corpus is found in the Constitution (art. I, 9). Constitutional rights belong only to Americans — that is, according to the Supreme Court, U.S. citizens and those aliens who, by lawfully weaving themselves into the fabric of our society, have become part of our national community (which is to say, lawful permanent resident aliens). To the contrary, aliens with no immigration status who are captured and held outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, and whose only connection to our country is to wage a barbaric war against it, do not have any rights, much less “basic rights,” under our Constitution.
"The Constitution does not provide alien enemy combatants detained at Guantanamo Bay with the constitutional right to file a petition for habeas corpus in our civilian courts, and thus Congress may regulate those combatants' access to the courts".

Really? Prisoners of war? I'm sorry, I must have missed when Congress declared war?

Not to mention, the wording in the Patriot Act allows them to consider even US citizens to be POWs, remember we are in a "war on terrorism." That is the beauty of the war on terrorism, they can twist and manipulate those definitions however they see fit. I like you as a person Logan, and I really enjoy our conversations, but I'm honestly afraid for you because you put SO much faith in the people who basically, RULE your life.

What good are elected officials if they are doing everything NOT in your interests. Well, of course they claim to be, but most things they do fulfill their own personal agendas or their cronies, or line someones pockets. It is never purely in our best interests, because they "care about us." Thats a load of shit, we all know that most of the politicians in Washington care about power and money, those are the only two currencies they give a shit about. They dont give a shit about your or me, yet we "elect" these jerkoffs.

Johnny-to-Small...No they do not need our vote. Presidents have WON the popular vote(The bullshit that me and you participate in), while LOSING the "electoral college".......... Our vote means a lot....

[thegodfather]

So you believe they are accurate? If I remember correctly, the company refused to release the source code. I'm just saying they can be rigged easily through a few small lines of code.

DIEBOLD.... they manufacture a lot of things, like ATMs...However, a woman on an HBO special had several computer experts get passed the "security" of Diebolds systems in SEVERAL ways. For one, the module that stores the votes on a memory card, had the capacity to have a program put on it, and according to the experts it was possible to create memory cards which could not have programs INSTALLED on them, yet the company refused to do so. So, the experts manipulated it so that for every 1 vote you cast for person X, it gave 2 to person Y. I saw it about a year ago, and Im not 100% on how the technology was being compromised, I just gave you an overview of it. I suspect we will start to hear more from that lady once election time gets closer.

[Panzerfaust]

no no, i am saying they are innacurate. i believe they were rigged.

I was about to say. ha

[Johny-too-small]

It is people like me and you that can stop this. Whether they like it or not, they need us to vote to keep them in office. With that said, I absolutely have no confidence in the electronic voting machines.

The Supreme Court follows the same "master" as the gov't.

"The real rulers in Washington are invisible and excercise power from behind the scenes."

~Felix Frankfurter
U.S. Supreme Court Justice

Agreed. I wish I could do more, or should do more. I wish the people of the US were united as a whole instead of divided and segregated by race, wealth, and age. The govt. has been brilliant in creating division amongst its citizens.

[Panzerfaust]

Agreed. I wish I could do more, or should do more. I wish the people of the US were united as a whole instead of divided and segregated by race, wealth, and age. The govt. has been brilliant in creating division amongst its citizens.

That is because they do not want you and I to focus on the real issue and endgame behind the gov't. The Federal Reserve should be the absolute #1 priority of the American people. Congress alone has the power to shut it down and they need us to continue to vote for them. So they do indeed need our cooperation to an extent. We still have some control left and that is the almighty vote. But i'm afraid they are increasingly damaging that power of ours (electronic fraud etc).

Don't get me wrong, we have alot of serious issues in this country but they can be put on the back burner IMO, we simply need to bring to light the actions of these "Elite" and what the Federal Reserve & CFR (Counsel Foreign Relations) truly stand for.

[Panzerfaust]

To continue my thought...people do not realise that these "Elite" have been in control of our money supply for almost 75yrs now. He who creates the money supply truly rules. These "Elite" can cause a massive depression in an instant if they so choose. They control the supply, not us.

They are absolutely some of the most brilliant yet diabolical people on the face of the earth. They want a one world gov't and are slowly but surely achieving their goal. We now have a "European Union", soon to have a "North American Union" which will consist of the US, Mexico and Canada. Our currency will the known as the "Amero".

Stop and think about it, which is easier; take control over 50+ countries seperately whom all have different sets of laws OR slowly combine these countries through a "Union" with one set of laws?

These people do not have a particular time table, they know the best way to achieve their domination is slowly over time.

It's the boiling frog theory.

You don't force change all at once, you do it gradually overtime.

IE: A new law today was passed banning allowing the gov't to listen in on all phone calls bla bla bla.

General Response: "Awe, I dont have anything to hide, go ahead I don't care", "If it's for our safety, ok" etc.

See what I mean...of course all this is backed by a huge propoganda machine AKA: The Media.

[goodcents]

You guys should watch "freedom to fascism" I rented it from netflix, great movie and they exposed shlt I never knew was going on, How many people know that the federal reserve is a private bank? I was like wtf? and mom said oh yeah I knew that years ago. (she was in banking for 30 years)

[Panzerfaust]

You guys should watch "freedom to fascism" I rented it from netflix, great movie and they exposed shlt I never knew was going on, How many people know that the federal reserve is a private bank? I was like wtf? and mom said oh yeah I knew that years ago. (she was in banking for 30 years)

I have psoted it many times:

http://freedomtofascism.com/

To watch the whole movie, go here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...80303867390173

[Panzerfaust]

Most people know nothing of the "Federal Reserve Act" and that President Woodrow Wilson signed it into law.

Not long after President Wilson stated

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is now controlled by its system of credit. We are no longer a goverment by free opinion, no longer a goverment by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a goverment by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

~Woodrow Wilson
1919

[Amorphic]

Most people know nothing of the "Federal Reserve Act" and that President Woodrow Wilson signed it into law.

Not long after President Wilson stated

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is now controlled by its system of credit. We are no longer a goverment by free opinion, no longer a goverment by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a goverment by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

~Woodrow Wilson
1919

thats got to be a shitty feeling

[Panzerfaust]

thats got to be a shitty feeling

We were all sold out before we ever swam and found the egg. Sad But True!

[qualityclrk1]

Ron Paul 2008

[wascaptain5214]

Ron Paul 2008

.....+1