Do Americans Care About Big Brother?

**Flagg** · 09-23-2008, 08:37 AM

Found this lil article: http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...rss-topstories

Quoted: "Pity America's poor civil libertarians. In recent weeks, the papers have been full of stories about the warehousing of information on Americans by the National Security Agency, the interception of financial information by the CIA, the stripping of authority from a civilian intelligence oversight board by the White House, and the compilation of suspicious activity reports from banks by the Treasury Department. On Thursday, Justice Department Inspector General Glenn Fine released a report documenting continuing misuse of Patriot Act powers by the FBI. And to judge from the reaction in the country, nobody cares.

Spying to Support a Life-Style
Is the Press Endangering the Nation?

Guardian Angels Are Here, Say Most Americans!
A quick tally of the record of civil liberties erosion in the United States since 9/11 suggests that the majority of Americans are ready to trade diminished privacy, and protection from search and seizure, in exchange for the promise of increased protection of their physical security. Polling consistently supports that conclusion, and Congress has largely behaved accordingly, granting increased leeway to law enforcement and the intelligence community to spy and collect data on Americans. Even when the White House, the FBI or the intelligence agencies have acted outside of laws protecting those rights — such as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act — the public has by and large shrugged and, through their elected representatives, suggested changing the laws to accommodate activities that may be in breach of them.

Civil libertarians are in a state of despair. "People don't realize how damaging it is to a democratic society to allow the government to warehouse information about innocent Americans," says Mike German, national security counsel at the American Civil Liberties Union.

Or do they? In all the examples of diminished civil liberties, there are few, if any, where the motivating factor was something other than law and order or national security. There are no scandalous examples of the White House using the Patriot Act powers for political purposes or of individual agents using them for personal gain. The Justice IG report released Thursday, for example, examined some 50,000 National Security Letters issued in 2006 to see whether the FBI misused that specialized kind of warrantless subpoena. The IG found some continuing abuse of the power, but blamed it for the most part on sloppiness and bad management, not nefarious intent. In a press release accompanying the report, Fine said, "The FBI and Department of Justice have shown a commitment to addressing these problems."

There may, nonetheless, be reasons to feel wary of the civil liberties vs. security trade-off into which Americans have bought. If the misuse documented in the Justice IG report stems from incompetence, Americans may not be getting the security they bargain for in sacrificing their civil liberties. It's also possible the Justice IG may yet find among the abused Patriot Act powers examples of an FBI agent stalking his girlfriend or doing a favor for a political operative friend. Fine is still preparing a report on the illegal use of "exigent letters" in unauthorized demands for records from business.

For now, however, civil libertarians will have to continue to argue that the danger lies not in how the government's expanded powers are being used now, but how they might be used in the future. "The government can collect information about the average citizen without any concern for their rights, but the citizen can't find out what the government is doing, and that's inimical to government of we the people," says the ACLU's German. So far, that argument hasn't convinced the people."

I don't think this just applies to Americans but for most of The West. Im starting to think that more and more, the general public just don't care about facts, as long as they get their daily diet of bullshit in the form of reality TV shows and soap operas. When shit goes wrong, just blame the guy who is supposedly in charge. Right now in the UK everyone cant stand Brown, but nothing is Browns fault. It's the fact he is there, if it was Blair or anyone else, they would be getting the same treatment.

**JiGGaMaN** · 09-23-2008, 08:40 AM

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

**Flagg** · 09-23-2008, 08:59 AM

Well I don't think the people care about facts.

Government over here in the UK is similiar to government in America in that people think they only have two choices. In the States people think they can only vote for Republican or Democrats and here people think they can only vote for Conservatives or Labour! People don't even stop to consider the third option.

Over here we have a third party called the Liberal Democrats, and the leader of that party is a man called Nick Clegg. Now like Ron Paul, he is also not a fan of big government, and one of the first things he said he would do is stop civil servants earning hundered of thousands of pounds a year. Anyone earning over 100K will have their jobs and salary re-evaluated. But 80% of the general public dont know who Nick Clegg even is. Now what pisses me off is that people will vote for the Conservatives on the grounds of hating the Labour government, its a joke. David Milliband of the conservatives is another one jumping on the Russia fear hysteria bandwagon, and that worries me...but again, PEOPLE DONT CARE ABOUT FACTS!

**Hoggage_54** · 09-23-2008, 09:33 AM

I'm so happy every day that I don't live in the US anymore. Unfortunatly, we have a neo-con in power right now in Canada who would love to do everything Bush does, and he is trying to. **** Harper.

**JiGGaMaN** · 09-23-2008, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Hoggage_54

I'm so happy every day that I don't live in the US anymore.

why is that? Were you being oppressed? Was the government spying on you? Do tell.

**Gears** · 09-23-2008, 10:01 AM

This sh*t is getting off the hook, civil liberties are diminishing and I don`t see how its not obvious to point out. You`re right, people really don`t care.

**gixxerboy1** · 09-23-2008, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by JiGGaMaN

why is that? Were you being oppressed? Was the government spying on you? Do tell.

well the gov now gets copies of every credit card transaction you make. The also got at&t to turn over all phone records. So yes they are spying on all of us. By the the time they do soemthing to you it will be to late. if its not already

**spywizard** · 09-23-2008, 10:23 AM

in a single word..

lawyers.. all of them..

**40plusnewbie** · 09-23-2008, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by JiGGaMaN

why is that? Were you being oppressed? Was the government spying on you? Do tell.

We are all debt slaves in the usa. Each person in this country currently owes the federal government over $70K.

When half of everything you earn goes to taxes (i.e. you are forced to pay or sent to the gulag or shot) what do you call yourself? Free?

**JiGGaMaN** · 09-23-2008, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by 40plusnewbie

We are all debt slaves in the usa. Each person in this country currently owes the federal government over $70K.

When half of everything you earn goes to taxes (i.e. you are forced to pay or sent to the gulag or shot) what do you call yourself? Free?

what does that mean?

**Panzerfaust** · 09-23-2008, 11:12 AM

Why do we not listen to our Forefathers nor learn from History?

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

~Benjamin Franklin

This was said hundreds of years ago...amazing how insightful our Forefathers were.

**Gears** · 09-23-2008, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by muriloninja

Why do we not listen to our Forefathers nor learn from History?

This was said hundreds of years ago...amazing how insightful our Forefathers were.

That`s a beast quote, i`m going to have to steal that.

**inky-e** · 09-23-2008, 05:17 PM

Big has a brother...didn't know that. Hi Big's brother!!

**Flagg** · 09-23-2008, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by inky-e

big has a brother...didn't know that. Hi big's brother!!

lol!

**RussianVodka** · 09-23-2008, 05:36 PM

No, I don't care

**Skully44420** · 09-23-2008, 05:43 PM

nope..

**Hoggage_54** · 09-23-2008, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Hoggage_54

I'm so happy every day that I don't live in the US anymore. Unfortunatly, we have a neo-con in power right now in Canada who would love to do everything Bush does, and he is trying to. **** Harper.

Mostly has to do with the insanely overpriced health insurance just to get denied a claim, and people owning guns who should not own guns. With the shit going on now in the US, it makes me even happier we got out of there. I remember my dad saying in 2000 when Bush got "elected" that the shit is going to hit the fan. I see now what me meant by that.

**DSM4Life** · 09-23-2008, 06:51 PM

Who is big brother and is he cute ?

**JiGGaMaN** · 09-23-2008, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

Who is big brother and is he cute ?

lol, one track mind...

**Deltasaurus** · 09-23-2008, 07:16 PM

US BS
Gov------>

**Rugger02** · 09-23-2008, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by skully44420

nope..

x2...

**SMCengineer** · 09-23-2008, 10:57 PM

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. – Edward R. Murrow

Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. – P. J. O'Rourke

The preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people. – George Washington

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. – Pericles

Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom. – Albert Einstein

The strength of the Constitution, lies in the will of the people to defend it. – Thomas Edison

**Flagg** · 09-24-2008, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by Blome

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. – Edward R. Murrow

Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. – P. J. O'Rourke

The preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people. – George Washington

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. – Pericles

Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom. – Albert Einstein

The strength of the Constitution, lies in the will of the people to defend it. – Thomas Edison

Awesome quotes.

I've noticed that for people do have a problem with Big Brother seem to have a reason or at least a few sentences on the matter. For those that have put "no", that's all they can put? Nothing else? I swear to God, more and more people dont care about facts and are happy to just not be educated on any subject. On this board im surprised, id assume most people are on the juice or thinking about it, yet seem fine with the fact that as more and more freedoms are taken away, the greater the risk of being caught with some gear. Shame.

**40plusnewbie** · 09-24-2008, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by JiGGaMaN

what does that mean?

It means that if you look at the federal debt and then divide by the number of citizens you wind up with $70K plus per citizen. You don't think a fary is going to come out of the sky and pay off the federal debt for us do you? The federal reserve bank (which is a private institution, private banks owned by individuals and NOT a government institution) can't simply keep printing out pieces of paper (that the government calls 'money') and lending to the government (which means more debt to us- whiich is added tax and causes inflation- the reason that a house used to cost 20K but now costs 400K) without us citizens suffering more and more consequences.

Why do you think it is that in the 1950's an grown man could work a job as a grocery store bagage boy and support a wife and a couple of kids but now a college student or a teenager can't work that same job and even pay his own rent and essential living expenses?

Why do you think it is that more and more it takes 2 incomes and not 1 to support a family? Or it takes working 60 hrs/week and not 40?

Sure the government propaganda machine might pipe out lies talking about 'jobs being shipped overseas' or 'foreigners taking our jobs' but that's just propaganda distracting the populace from what is really going on here.

So since you owe the federal government 70K plus that makes you a debt slave. They own your ass. And in 20 years your going to owe even more b/c the federal debt is going to continue to grow b/c the federal reserve is going to keep printing pieces of paper that the government calls money and lend it to the government at an interest rate...which the populace is responsible for paying/dealing with the repercusions of same.

And as far as you paying 50% of everything you earn in taxes, that should be more obvious when you think about it. Government propaganda has everyone chanting 'this is the greatest country on earth' or 'it's a lot worse in other places'. So what even if that is true? If your a slave picking cotton all day and you get 1 full bowl of rice at the end of the day are you supposed to feel pround and or comforted because the slaves down the block only get 1/2 a bowl of rice after picking cotton all day? Screw that!

When you think of taxes you pay do not forget about gas tax, exise tax, registration tax, buying a drivers license tax, speeding ticket tax, no seatbelt tax, parking your car wrong tax, property tax (renters this is built into your rent, you don't think your landlord is footing the bill for your share do you?), federal tax, state tax, sales tax, soc sec tax (good luck getting out every penny you put in over the course of your life plus a fair compounded interest rate lol, and INFLATION tax.

Inflation is not some entity that naturally exists on the planet earth. Governments cause inflation and inflation hurts you (ie costs you money/wealth), it doesn't help you.

Government has their hand in everything, every transaction imaginable. They want a piece of the action everywhere. You work and get paid and they take money from your pay before you even cash your check. Then you spend some of that money and they take a cut from sales tax. Then the people who you paid take that money and buys stuff and the governmetn takes a piece of THAT. If you save/invest some of the money the government takes a piece of THAT. etc, etc.

Add it all up and you pay a hell of a lot more than you are conditioned to think you pay.

Governments are territorial monopolies. They have exclusive rights to control everything that happens in the land they claim oversight of. No competition means they can give piss poor service and force you to pay for it all. If you refuse you go to the gulag or get shot.

It's like the mafia. It's a racket. Except the government has a multi billion dollar propaganda machine to disguize the reality that they are robber barrons who have turned you into a debt slave. Try to set up shop in competiton to the government and you will be killed (or sent to the gulag).

**Flagg** · 09-24-2008, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by 40plusnewbie

It means that if you look at the federal debt and then divide by the number of citizens you wind up with $70K plus per citizen. You don't think a fary is going to come out of the sky and pay off the federal debt for us do you? The federal reserve bank (which is a private institution, private banks owned by individuals and NOT a government institution) can't simply keep printing out pieces of paper (that the government calls 'money') and lending to the government (which means more debt to us- whiich is added tax and causes inflation- the reason that a house used to cost 20K but now costs 400K) without us citizens suffering more and more consequences.

Why do you think it is that in the 1950's an grown man could work a job as a grocery store bagage boy and support a wife and a couple of kids but now a college student or a teenager can't work that same job and even pay his own rent and essential living expenses?

Why do you think it is that more and more it takes 2 incomes and not 1 to support a family? Or it takes working 60 hrs/week and not 40?

Sure the government propaganda machine might pipe out lies talking about 'jobs being shipped overseas' or 'foreigners taking our jobs' but that's just propaganda distracting the populace from what is really going on here.

So since you owe the federal government 70K plus that makes you a debt slave. They own your ass. And in 20 years your going to owe even more b/c the federal debt is going to continue to grow b/c the federal reserve is going to keep printing pieces of paper that the government calls money and lend it to the government at an interest rate...which the populace is responsible for paying/dealing with the repercusions of same.

And as far as you paying 50% of everything you earn in taxes, that should be more obvious when you think about it. Government propaganda has everyone chanting 'this is the greatest country on earth' or 'it's a lot worse in other places'. So what even if that is true? If your a slave picking cotton all day and you get 1 full bowl of rice at the end of the day are you supposed to feel pround and or comforted because the slaves down the block only get 1/2 a bowl of rice after picking cotton all day? Screw that!

When you think of taxes you pay do not forget about gas tax, exise tax, registration tax, buying a drivers license tax, speeding ticket tax, no seatbelt tax, parking your car wrong tax, property tax (renters this is built into your rent, you don't think your landlord is footing the bill for your share do you?), federal tax, state tax, sales tax, soc sec tax (good luck getting out every penny you put in over the course of your life plus a fair compounded interest rate lol, and INFLATION tax.

Inflation is not some entity that naturally exists on the planet earth. Governments cause inflation and inflation hurts you (ie costs you money/wealth), it doesn't help you.

Government has their hand in everything, every transaction imaginable. They want a piece of the action everywhere. You work and get paid and they take money from your pay before you even cash your check. Then you spend some of that money and they take a cut from sales tax. Then the people who you paid take that money and buys stuff and the governmetn takes a piece of THAT. If you save/invest some of the money the government takes a piece of THAT. etc, etc.

Add it all up and you pay a hell of a lot more than you are conditioned to think you pay.

Governments are territorial monopolies. They have exclusive rights to control everything that happens in the land they claim oversight of. No competition means they can give piss poor service and force you to pay for it all. If you refuse you go to the gulag or get shot.

It's like the mafia. It's a racket. Except the government has a multi billion dollar propaganda machine to disguize the reality that they are robber barrons who have turned you into a debt slave. Try to set up shop in competiton to the government and you will be killed (or sent to the gulag).

Absolutely great post. In the UK we have the worst roads in Europe, yet we spent more money on them than anyone else in Europe did on theirs. In the UK we have shocking public transport service, yet again, we spent more money on this than anyone else did in Europe. And so on..

**SMCengineer** · 09-24-2008, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Flagg

Awesome quotes.

I've noticed that for people do have a problem with Big Brother seem to have a reason or at least a few sentences on the matter. For those that have put "no", that's all they can put? Nothing else? I swear to God, more and more people dont care about facts and are happy to just not be educated on any subject. On this board im surprised, id assume most people are on the juice or thinking about it, yet seem fine with the fact that as more and more freedoms are taken away, the greater the risk of being caught with some gear. Shame.

Funny you say that because I first bacame interested in politics when I found out the hypocrisy of the steroid laws . Of course from there I've become more concerned about different issues, but that was my introduction to politics.

For anyone who says "what rights have been taken away?" or "have you actually been oppressed?" need I remind you that in the eyes of the government you're a criminal for doing something to your body that doesn't effect anyone else. To us, big brother is a very real threat even if some of you haven't had to deal with it yet. By big brother I'm not referring to any conspiratorial issues, quite the contrary. I'm referring to the very real threat that is posed to you everytime you import and use AAS and the very real dangers associated with it.

There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws. – Ayn Rand

It is not the responsibility of the government or the legal system to protect a citizen from himself. – Justice Casey Percell

**Flagg** · 09-24-2008, 10:12 AM

There used to be an old saying that went something like:

"Innocent, until proven guilty".

To me, Big Brother is "Guilty until proven innocent".

Big Brother is the result of paranoid governments that does not trust the public, and it's the ultimate form of control. I had a part time gig doing a bit of delivery driving, and the company that I worked for were talking about putting survielance cameras above the passengers front seat. And I can't abide idiots that say "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear"....are they that naive that corruption doesnt exist, and that things like a DNA Data Base wouldn't be abused?

Governments also say that things like this is an attempt to combat crime, I mean what a load of shit that is. Knife crime is enormous in London at the moment and it's being deemed as the most dangerous city in Europe. Politicians don't give a shit about crime because they dont live in areas where crime exists.

It's ALL ABOUT CONTROL.

**Flagg** · 09-24-2008, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Blome

Funny you say that because I first bacame interested in politics when I found out the hypocrisy of the steroid laws . Of course from there I've become more concerned about different issues, but that was my introduction to politics.

For anyone who says "what rights have been taken away?" or "have you actually been oppressed?" need I remind you that in the eyes of the government you're a criminal for doing something to your body that doesn't effect anyone else. To us, big brother is a very real threat even if some of you haven't had to deal with it yet. By big brother I'm not referring to any conspiratorial issues, quite the contrary. I'm referring to the very real threat that is posed to you everytime you import and use AAS and the very real dangers associated with it.

There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws. – Ayn Rand

It is not the responsibility of the government or the legal system to protect a citizen from himself. – Justice Casey Percell

It's blatant hypocrisy when alcohol destroys thousands of lives a year, through being a alcoholic or drink driving or domestic violence brought on by alcohol.

Unfortunately, alcohol makes vast sums of money for Government. You're not gonna see that lil cash cow dissapear any time soon.

I think propaganda about drugs is created to divert people away from the dangers of alcohol and tobacco.

**40plusnewbie** · 09-24-2008, 10:29 AM

To those who don't think 'Big Brother' is a problem, how many more laws do we need? 100? 1000? 10,000? 100,000? 1 million? 10 million?

And the uber rich people who control the politicians (you don't think poor people control them, do you?) have everyone convinced that all of this is 'helping you'. LMAO

It's like that dude from Ruby Ridge said (paraphrased) "If the government told everyone tomorrow that they needed a 'walking license' everyone would be rushing off to fill out the paperwork and pay the fee."

Can you imagine walmart having the ability to produce any good it wanted to and automatically take money out of everyones paycheck in the country to pay for it? If you resist you go to the gulag or get shot. And if someone comes along and says "walmart sucks, you guys are getting screwed!" and tries to open up a territory where goods and services are offered only on a voluntary basis, on a pay as you go basis, walmart sends out guys with guns to take control over that territory and every item of value in it and sends the dude to the gulag or shoots his ass dead.

That's government.

If government is so good and so helpful, why do they need to force people to pay for it at the barrel of a gun?

People who provide products and services at the barrel of a gun are evil maniacs. I don't care if they wear fancy hats and live in washington d.c and are on tv or live in an alley somewhere and dressed like a gangster.

**Flagg** · 09-24-2008, 10:36 AM

You know there doesn't seem to be that much difference between the various governments of the world. People say that the Burma regime is evil because they utterly exploit the people. The West just exploit the planet instead.

**40plusnewbie** · 09-24-2008, 10:46 AM

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on when the usa sends billions in 'aid' to various countries and then all that money winds up in the pockets of a few people...and then the next year the usa sends more 'aid' to the same country.

If I'm trying to help some poor starving family down the street from me and ship off some money to them... and then I see that the father takes all the money and buys a condo with it and puts a mistress in it... what kind of person am I if the next year I send more money to 'help the family' and he gets a couple more mistresses with the money and leaves his family in destitute poverty? What kind of person am I if I go around collecting (ie stealing via taxes) money from all my neighbors as part of my campaign to 'help' the 'starving family'.... year after year after year....when it is clear as day what the results are?