Protestant vs. Catholic Vs. Muslim Cage-Match to the death: why did Jesus [as] die?

[D7M]

^^I heard that somewhere, too.

Something like "Jesus is quoted more than Muhammed in the Quran"

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, RockinRed.

Buffed, well I can go into depth meaning of atonement, but I was rejected out of the conversation because I am not considered mainstream Christianity.

I did not mean that. You are most welcome to participate, God-Willing. Sorry if I implied otherwise.

Now, the reason I posted in your thread is because you started this as a debate to take away the meaning of Jesus' life.

My Christian cousin, this was not my intent. Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is respected and loved by us. I will shortly post on the Muslim view as to why Jesus (peace be upon him) was not crucified. In fact, we believe that those who crucified him intended to declare him a failure thereby, and that is why we believe it is necessary to reject the idea that they succeeded in this. We believe that it does not befit the Majesty of God to allow His beloved prophet, Jesus, to be crucified in such a manner.

I could not be a Muslim if I insulted or degraded Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). Just because I say "do not go to excess with what you say about Jesus", it does not mean that I do this to tarnish Jesus. Similar is our attitude towards Prophet Muhammad [s]. For example, the Shi'ites (a group considered heterodox by orthodox Muslims) elevate the status of Prophet Muhammad [s] by claiming that he (Prophet Muhammad) is perfect, beyond making mistakes, incapable of sin, etc. The Shi'ites also claim that Prophet Muhammad [s] has the power to answer our prayers. And heterodox groups claim that Prophet Muhammad [s] was not a human being, but made out of light like the angels, etc etc.

And yet, we (the orthodox Muslims) reject all of this, and refute them in debate, declaring clearly that Prophet Muhammad [s] was a human being, capable of making mistakes and minor sins, and that he [s] cannot answer our prayers--only God can.

Does this mean that we are trying to "bring down" Prophet Muhammad [s]? Or insult him? Or take away his status? No. It just means that we want to maintain our creed of monotheism above all else. Likewise, our intention here is not to bring down the status of Prophet Jesus, but rather to promote the proper monotheistic creed, which Jesus himself taught. As the Quran says:

"Christ disdains not to serve and worship God, nor do the angels, those nearest to God. Whosoever scorns His worship and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him [to punish]! O People of the Book! Do not go to excess in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ, Jesus--the son of Mary--was a messenger of God, and His Word...So believe in God and His messengers. Say not 'Trinity': desist! It will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And sufficient is God as the Guardian Lord." (Quran, 4:169-170)

In other words, we believe that Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) would want to be remembered as a pious servant, and there is nothing degrading in claiming that this is what he was.

And you started it in a haughty sort of way.

I apologize if I came across as haughty. I simply wanted to have a dialogue, and arrive at a Common Word.

the second I talked about the scriptures outside of mainstream, you back out.

Dear cousin, this is not the case. In fact, I tried to explain to you that even with your view, my argument would *still* apply, but you don't seem to understand this. Please go back to the argument and you will see how--no matter what you believe "hell" is or is not--my argument still applies.

Forgive me for any transgressions against you.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[subaruwrx04]

Jesus is the only way enough said..

[D7M]

I will shortly post on the Muslim view as to why Jesus (peace be upon him) was not crucified. In fact, we believe that those who crucified him intended to declare him a failure thereby, and that is why we believe it is necessary to reject the idea that they succeeded in this. We believe that it does not befit the Majesty of God to allow His beloved prophet, Jesus, to be crucified in such a manner.

Um, Buffed, have you ever heard of Josephus, the 1st century historian?

[BuffedGuy]

Jesus is the only way enough said..

I agree with you that the way of Jesus (peace be upon him) is the only way.

[BuffedGuy]

Um, Buffed, have you ever heard of Josephus, the 1st century historian?

No, I haven't.

[rockinred]

Josephesus is an unbiased historian who wrote about that time frame. His writings were not about Jesus at all and were in fact few, but what he does write about him, it coincides with the accounts of what has been written... derek is implying that you can't alter the facts of Jesus' life as it was also documented outside of a christian writer to support what was written. Google Josephus.

[BuffedGuy]

Josephesus is an unbiased historian who wrote about that time frame. His writings were not about Jesus at all and were in fact few, but what he does write about him, it coincides with the accounts of what has been written... derek is implying that you can't alter the facts of Jesus' life as it was also documented outside of a christian writer to support what was written. Google Josephus.

What facts have I altered?

[rockinred]

well, I think i understand what you are saying in the crucifying of Jesus. Josephus only confirms that Jesus was crucified by the request of the Jews. so from an outside source that part is true and if you want the inner workings as to why; the only source of reference would be the scriptures.

Also, I do not believe in the trinity either. what I do disagree with you on is that Jesus was more than a prophet as he does claim. He does defend himself from accusations of him being God in the book of John, but I do believe he is the greatest man. As you stated above, many doctrines in the Muslim faith have changed how people percieve Mohamed.... the same can be said for Buhdda, and the same for Jesus. I do believe that he was more than a great man though.... as one writer states, he is who he claims to be, or a he is a lunatic. That sounds harsh, but when you think about it, it is true. He even died because of his beliefs. He claimed to be from Heaven as one of God's worker from the beginning. he also claimed that no one has ascended to heaven except he who has descended. he also claims that he was going to prepare a place where no one would be able to go.... and he also said he would return.

I am not offended with anything you stated friend. As I pointed out, I was only offended by the starting of this thread.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, RockinRed.

well, I think i understand what you are saying in the crucifying of Jesus. Josephus only confirms that Jesus was crucified by the request of the Jews. so from an outside source that part is true and if you want the inner workings as to why; the only source of reference would be the scriptures.

When King Nimrod commanded his men to throw Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) into the fire, God commanded the fire "be cool!" And so the fire did not harm Prophet Abraham, but it became coolness and safety. And thus were the plots of the polytheists foiled.

Similarly, when the Jews and the Romans wished to kill Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him), God came to rescue him. God says:

"They rejected Faith...They uttered against Mary a grave false charge...They boasted: 'We killed Christ, Jesus--The Son of Mary--The Messenger of God.' But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but they only follow conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not! Nay, God raised him up unto Himself, and God is Exalted in Power, Wise." (Quran, 4:156-157)

Obviously, this is a miracle of God, and therefore is a matter of faith, and cannot be proved or disproved either way. Since it appeared to the disbelievers that they killed Jesus (peace be upon him), then of course the historians from amongst them would narrate that.

Interestingly enough, there are ancient manuscripts--such as the Apocalypse of Peter, the one of the Nag Hammadi library--that confirm that many early Christians believed that only Jesus's likeness was killed, and it was only made to appear to the disbelievers that they succeeded in killing Jesus. The text reads:

"He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. "

Here is a documentary on this text:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxV7...C332F6&index=8

And there is other evidence that Muslims put forward, but largely it is a matter of faith.

Let me explain the Islamic position fully:

According to the Old Testament itself, the worst of punishments--reserved for slaves and traitors--is crucifixion. It is said--again in the Bible itself--that the one who is crucified has the curse of God on him. That is the very reason that the Jews wished to crucify Jesus [as], in order to prove that he was not truly the promised Messiah but a cursed impostor. They figured that if they crucified him, that would be enough evidence to support this thesis. Here is one Christian website that explains:

Crucifixion was offensive to the Jews - they regarded anyone who was crucified as being under God's curse because they were being 'hung on a tree,' and the law of Moses said that anyone hung on a tree was cursed by God - see Deuteronomy chapter 21 verse 22-23. The early Church saw Jesus as being 'hung on a tree' when he was crucified, and therefore under God's curse - see Acts chapter 5 verse 30, Acts chapter 10 verse 39, and Galatians chapter 3 verse 13.

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/crucified.php

Furthermore--according to the Jewish belief, the Messiah would rule the world and bring world peace. Therefore, they wished to kill Jesus [as], so that they could use it as a proof against him, i.e. that he died without bringing any of the things that the Messiah would bring.

In fact, if you talk to a Jew today--and ask him why he doesn't believe that Jesus [as] was the Messiah--this is the number one reason they will give, namely that Jesus [as] did not bring to fruition all of the things that the Messiah was prophesied to bring forth.

This proof against Jesus [as], i.e. that the curse of God is upon the one who is crucified, was dealt with by the Pauline Christians by arguing that Jesus [as] had taken the curse of the world upon himself, thereby alleviating us all from the curse of sin. In other words, this is the rationale behind the concept of Jesus [as] dying for our sins: he took the curse upon himself, to save us from it.

Muslims, however, take another view. We say that Jesus [as] was not crucified at all, and he was ascended to the Heavens in safety, like Abraham [as] was saved from the fire. As for the proofs used against Jesus [as] by the Jews to claim that he was not the Messiah, we say: Jesus [as] will return at the End of Times to fulfill the prophecies, and to rule the world and bring world peace. Therefore, we believe that the plots of the disbelievers against Jesus [as] have been foiled: they could not kill him, even though they tried. The Quran says:

"The disbelievers plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God. Behold! God said [to Jesus]: I will take you and raise you to Myself, and clear you of the falsehood of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow you superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection. Then shall you all return unto me, and I will judge between you concerning those matters wherein you differed." (Quran, 3:55)

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[BuffedGuy]

Peace be unto you, Derek.

^^I heard that somewhere, too.

Something like "Jesus is quoted more than Muhammed in the Quran"

Although it may be true that the name "Jesus" is taken more times in the Quran than the name "Muhammad" (I'd have to check if this is true but I believe it is), Prophet Muhammad [s] is normally referred to simply as "Prophet" or "Messenger", and as such, I think that these references would outnumber those that are in reference to Jesus [as].

However, it is true that Prophet Jesus [as] is mentioned a lot in the Quran, and an entire chapter is entitled "Mary." Prophet Jesus [as] is considered one of the five Arch-Prophets, along with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[subaruwrx04]

Do you believe in the anti-crist.. Do you think you will see the anti-christ or not in flesh?

[BuffedGuy]

Do you believe in the anti-crist.. Do you think you will see the anti-christ or not in flesh?

Peace be unto you, Subaru.

Yes, we believe in the coming of the Anti-Christ, in the most literal of senses. We believe that the Anti-Christ will do battle with Prophet Jesus [as], and be defeated. Good will prevail over evil.

In the Care of the Lord,
-Saladin.

[subaruwrx04]

Hmmm.. Ive heard different things from people with your religion.. Was just curious cause you seem pretty bright. What I thought though..

[BuffedGuy]

Hmmm.. Ive heard different things from people with your religion.. Was just curious cause you seem pretty bright. What I thought though..

Well, whatever I say is from the orthodox doctrine, as in the Quran and Prophetic Sayings. Some non-practicing or semi-practicing Muslims in the West tend to--well, how should I put this lightly--speak out of their rear ends.