Health care for everyone, 900 billion dollars over 10 years

**J-Dogg** · 09-10-2009, 04:43 PM

What is the big problem with that? 90 billion a year? Seriously, if that's an issue it's messed up.

I don't want to pay for the fat bastard eating fast food 5 times a day and paying with it by selling food off his food stamps for 50 cents on the dollar, but it's just how it is.

I'm not huge into politics, I'm on a dem or rep either, I'm just your average guy, too busy to follow things real close. But if people seriously sit back, look at the economy, and the things that are really WRONG in America. It's easy to see that health insurance and the cost of health care are probably the 2 biggest issues.

Previously, I felt the housing market, the ease of purchasing and ease of borrowing against homes was the biggest, Eventually things bottom out, and it did.

I think at some point (liberals jump my ass here!) the government is responsible for looking out for the common wealth. Drug manufactures, doctors and insurance companies all need some work.... When they are all getting along, things are going that smooth and the people are paying for it, thats when it's time to have the government implement some changes.

**sizerp** · 09-10-2009, 04:49 PM

Not only is our health care system a problem, so is our food supply system. One of the worst, aside from Ethiopia... All these GMO's and pesticides. Makes me sick. Actually, half the people in the diet section who think they are healthy make me sick too.

**J-Dogg** · 09-10-2009, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by sizerp

Not only is our health care system a problem, so is our food supply system. One of the worst, aside from Ethiopia... All these GMO's and pesticides. Makes me sick. Actually, half the people in the diet section who think they are healthy make me sick too.

the ass on your avy makes me think of sick filthy things too

**Flagg** · 09-10-2009, 05:14 PM

Democracy in the West = do whatever the hell you want. Or..what the Government encourages you to do. And thats buy and/or eat garbage.

Stuff your fat face, become a fat sack of shit, but dont worry. You're free to do this.

I've always been worried about food. I mean sooner or later, our population is going to go way beyond carrying capacity, though I think it already has, and measures are going to have to be taken. Being free doesn't mean we can just consume, consume, consume. That's what locusts do.

90 Billion dollars a year for Healthcare in America. Is that accurate? If it is then I really don't know what to say.

**thegodfather** · 09-10-2009, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by J-Dogg

What is the big problem with that? 90 billion a year? Seriously, if that's an issue it's messed up.

I don't want to pay for the fat bastard eating fast food 5 times a day and paying with it by selling food off his food stamps for 50 cents on the dollar, but it's just how it is.

I'm not huge into politics, I'm on a dem or rep either, I'm just your average guy, too busy to follow things real close. But if people seriously sit back, look at the economy, and the things that are really WRONG in America. It's easy to see that health insurance and the cost of health care are probably the 2 biggest issues.

Previously, I felt the housing market, the ease of purchasing and ease of borrowing against homes was the biggest, Eventually things bottom out, and it did.

I think at some point (liberals jump my ass here!) the government is responsible for looking out for the common wealth. Drug manufactures, doctors and insurance companies all need some work.... When they are all getting along, things are going that smooth and the people are paying for it, thats when it's time to have the government implement some changes.

Such an over simplification of an immensely complex problem with many variables. Even if 90 billion dollars a year was accurate, and it's surely not. Not saying that number was given to you incorrectly, just that the government never gives a true estimate of the cost of things. They underestimate in just about everything they are involved in. Say that it was 90 billion dollars, that means that 350 million people have to be given care within that amount of money, and anything more and you are SHIT OUT OF LUCK. Putting price caps on health care, and being able to provide health care for that cost would mean that RATIONING would have to be put in place. It is the ONLY way that costs would be able to be kept down. Because what if John Doe made a doctors appointment once a week? In a normal situation he is free to do so if he feels something is wrong with him, so long as he can pay out of pocket or afford his co-pay. Under the governments system, they would tell you when and where you can see your doctor, and how many times, in order to avoid 'waste'.

In closing, health care is not a right. You do not have a right to something that other people must provide in order for you to exercise it. You don't have a right to a plasma TV, a BMW, or a 5 bedroom house. You don't have rights to things just because you want them or think you need them. You have the right to life, and you have the right to liberty under our Constitution, you also have the right to pursue happiness, and you have that right so long as you don't require anyone else to do so. So if you used the argument that health care would make you happy, well that may be so, but it requires you obligating a 3rd party, by either forcing a doctor/nurse to treat you by coercion(force/violence), or by taking tax dollars from citizens by coercion(threat of force/violence) in order to pay for your health care.

If you examine any of the rights in the 10 amendments, none of them require action by a 3rd party. You have the right to freedom of speech, but NBC is not required to give you an hour of airtime to speak. You have the right to a firearm, but Smith&Wesson is not required to provide you one for free.

I could delve deep into the ways in which the free market has always provided a better product than the government in almost every single instance, but I'd be wasting my time. Just some food for though, Amtrak, US Postal Service, and Social Security, are government run, and all three are BANKRUPT.

**redz** · 09-10-2009, 07:30 PM

There are obvious benifts to free health care but believe me there are down sides too. The taxes here in Canada are rediculous. I pay virtually 40% income tax and 13% sales tax on everything I buy not to mention $3000 a year in property taxes. Personally i would rather pay for the health care and have less taxes taken from me.

**J-Dogg** · 09-10-2009, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Such an over simplification of an immensely complex problem with many variables. Even if 90 billion dollars a year was accurate, and it's surely not. Not saying that number was given to you incorrectly, just that the government never gives a true estimate of the cost of things. They underestimate in just about everything they are involved in. Say that it was 90 billion dollars, that means that 350 million people have to be given care within that amount of money, and anything more and you are SHIT OUT OF LUCK. Putting price caps on health care, and being able to provide health care for that cost would mean that RATIONING would have to be put in place. It is the ONLY way that costs would be able to be kept down. Because what if John Doe made a doctors appointment once a week? In a normal situation he is free to do so if he feels something is wrong with him, so long as he can pay out of pocket or afford his co-pay. Under the governments system, they would tell you when and where you can see your doctor, and how many times, in order to avoid 'waste'.

In closing, health care is not a right. You do not have a right to something that other people must provide in order for you to exercise it. You don't have a right to a plasma TV, a BMW, or a 5 bedroom house. You don't have rights to things just because you want them or think you need them. You have the right to life, and you have the right to liberty under our Constitution, you also have the right to pursue happiness, and you have that right so long as you don't require anyone else to do so. So if you used the argument that health care would make you happy, well that may be so, but it requires you obligating a 3rd party, by either forcing a doctor/nurse to treat you by coercion(force/violence), or by taking tax dollars from citizens by coercion(threat of force/violence) in order to pay for your health care.

If you examine any of the rights in the 10 amendments, none of them require action by a 3rd party. You have the right to freedom of speech, but NBC is not required to give you an hour of airtime to speak. You have the right to a firearm, but Smith&Wesson is not required to provide you one for free.

I could delve deep into the ways in which the free market has always provided a better product than the government in almost every single instance, but I'd be wasting my time. Just some food for though, Amtrak, US Postal Service, and Social Security, are government run, and all three are BANKRUPT.

If you want to see a doctor ever week, then you better be able to prove a good reason to do so.

If you are that sick, and can't afford the bill yourself, why should you deserve the privilege of picking out your favorite doctor, and flip the bill to the tax payers anyway?

I think doctors and drug companies should have guidelines for pricing in place anyway. If your doctor is outside of those boundaries, I guess he'll just have to serve the filthy rich clients....if that's his nitch, so be it, that's how the economy works. But the lady on food stamps in government housing, can't afford the same treatment as the CEO on the other side of town. Broke bums can't live like millionaires.

The government steps in to see that they get adequate treatment, at a affordable price because the government/tax payers are paying the bill.

I own a roofing company and the government pays for some people to have their roofs replaced. I never get the job, because my prices far exceed the lowest bid. I'm not going out of business, we use better materials, offer a better warantee and better craftsmanship, so the price is higher. Do these less wealthy people deserve the same roof that we put on doctors houses?

**Knockout_Power** · 09-10-2009, 08:43 PM

Come to Canada, its free here... oh wait, I mean its free for those on welfare or have aboriginal status, or "politcal refugees", the rest of us have to pay copious amounts of taxes to take care of the people Jdogg already described... Smokers, 3 Big Mac eating (but a diet soda) hypochondriacs. The Canadian citizens who actually work hard for their money and make more than average income want private healthcare. Funny how we cant get this shite straight and we are neighbors. Regardless, everything costs too much money. The cause or the resulting consequence.

**J-Dogg** · 09-10-2009, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by redz

There are obvious benifts to free health care but believe me there are down sides too. The taxes here in Canada are rediculous. I pay virtually 40% income tax and 13% sales tax on everything I buy not to mention $3000 a year in property taxes. Personally i would rather pay for the health care and have less taxes taken from me.

I pay a sick amount of taxes, 33% on income, sales tax on all my materials for work, I pay property taxes on 5 houses. 4 of them I pay 18 mills higher in school tax than someone who owns 1 property.

John next door pays 4 mills for school tax for his 2 kids to attend, I pay a total of 76 mills and I have zero kids in the school system.

Of what I make, I pay over 50% in taxes.

If there were more entrepenures out there, we'd probably be in civil war right now. Paying income taxes, and taxes on everything else is way different when you are writing a check for 50k at the end of the year for income tax, 20k for property taxes on a depreciating market, paying registration for the same vehical every year to drive down the road, that your property taxes are suppose to cover to maintain. I pay 1,900 a year to the city to put 3, 13 gallon garbage bags of garbage out a week, and put out 1 bag most of the time. Yes, It cost me $40 to have a garbage man stop in front of my house, and toss a white garbage bag of garbage into a dumpster.

There is a TON of wreckless spending in the government system, I see it every day and hate it. City workers driving around it brand new 4 wheel drive trucks, state police in mustangs, schools with a lap top for every student, we just put in a million dollar tennis court at the Jr high for a city with a population of 9k.

For the amount of money the goverment spends, the amount of taxes we have to pay, if they can give people health care for 90billion a year, I'm all for it.

**thegodfather** · 09-10-2009, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by J-Dogg

I pay a sick amount of taxes, 33% on income, sales tax on all my materials for work, I pay property taxes on 5 houses. 4 of them I pay 18 mills higher in school tax than someone who owns 1 property.

John next door pays 4 mills for school tax for his 2 kids to attend, I pay a total of 76 mills and I have zero kids in the school system.

Of what I make, I pay over 50% in taxes.

If there were more entrepenures out there, we'd probably be in civil war right now. Paying income taxes, and taxes on everything else is way different when you are writing a check for 50k at the end of the year for income tax, 20k for property taxes on a depreciating market, paying registration for the same vehical every year to drive down the road, that your property taxes are suppose to cover to maintain. I pay 1,900 a year to the city to put 3, 13 gallon garbage bags of garbage out a week, and put out 1 bag most of the time. Yes, It cost me $40 to have a garbage man stop in front of my house, and toss a white garbage bag of garbage into a dumpster.

There is a TON of wreckless spending in the government system, I see it every day and hate it. City workers driving around it brand new 4 wheel drive trucks, state police in mustangs, schools with a lap top for every student, we just put in a million dollar tennis court at the Jr high for a city with a population of 9k.

For the amount of money the goverment spends, the amount of taxes we have to pay, if they can give people health care for 90billion a year, I'm all for it.

Thats the point. If we eliminated 50% of the government agencies that have been created in the last 30-40 years, we could significantly cut income taxes, down to 0% in fact. In the year 2000, the income tax did not pay for a single government service that was provided. Your roads are covered by gas tax, school by property tax, and a number of other excise taxes cover other "ESSENTIAL" services. State income tax covers the rest. The Federal income tax is illegitimate and absolutely unconstitutional had it not been for the 16th amendment, which was questionably voted in.

The point is people should be free to do with their earnings what they wish. They should KEEP more of their earnings, and therefore be able to choose which services they can and cannot afford. Health care, is a SERVICE. And I can't believe you are advocating pay caps on doctors and pharm companys. Doctors are ALREADY struggling to maintain their current pay, dont get me started. If anything, they DESERVE MORE MONEY! You can bitch about their salaries, but you didn't spend 12 years of your life sacraficing 60-70 hours a week to class and studying, missing out on life. You didn't spend 4-7 years of your life in a hospital for 80-100 hours a week, sleeping there overnight, and getting paid $38,000 a year. On top of that, you dont see 30-50 patients per day, all of which have the potential to sue you within whatever arbitrary statute of limitations the state you practice in decides to set on med mal damages. But luckily for you, the Federal government has already been limiting doctors pay, by continually lowering Medicare&Medicaid reimbursements to doctors and hospitals, to the point that if a doctor were to take ONLY patients with those two forms of insurance they wouldn't be able to stay in business.

**J-Dogg** · 09-10-2009, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by thegodfather

Thats the point. If we eliminated 50% of the government agencies that have been created in the last 30-40 years, we could significantly cut income taxes, down to 0% in fact. In the year 2000, the income tax did not pay for a single government service that was provided. Your roads are covered by gas tax, school by property tax, and a number of other excise taxes cover other "ESSENTIAL" services. State income tax covers the rest. The Federal income tax is illegitimate and absolutely unconstitutional had it not been for the 16th amendment, which was questionably voted in.

The point is people should be free to do with their earnings what they wish. They should KEEP more of their earnings, and therefore be able to choose which services they can and cannot afford. Health care, is a SERVICE. And I can't believe you are advocating pay caps on doctors and pharm companys. Doctors are ALREADY struggling to maintain their current pay, dont get me started. If anything, they DESERVE MORE MONEY! You can bitch about their salaries, but you didn't spend 12 years of your life sacraficing 60-70 hours a week to class and studying, missing out on life. You didn't spend 4-7 years of your life in a hospital for 80-100 hours a week, sleeping there overnight, and getting paid $38,000 a year. On top of that, you dont see 30-50 patients per day, all of which have the potential to sue you within whatever arbitrary statute of limitations the state you practice in decides to set on med mal damages. But luckily for you, the Federal government has already been limiting doctors pay, by continually lowering Medicare&Medicaid reimbursements to doctors and hospitals, to the point that if a doctor were to take ONLY patients with those two forms of insurance they wouldn't be able to stay in business.

I like money, I like my money in my account. I'm siding with you on this one

**xlxBigSexyxlx** · 09-10-2009, 09:40 PM

Seems to be working for Europe no?

**gixxerboy1** · 09-10-2009, 09:43 PM

i think there needs to be some reform though. I cant get insurance because I'm a diabetic. Hell someone with a dwi can get car insurance. But i have a pre-existing condition but in good health. i wish i was just a fat ass

**Immortal Soldier** · 09-10-2009, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx

Seems to be working for Europe no?

Europe's population is not reproducing itself, thus inevitably the population will decline and Europe will no longer be made up of those from European background (french, English, German, Polish, etc.) but Asians/Middle Eastern/Africans/Eastern Europeans.

(this has nothing to do with Europe's healthcare system lol)