The Marriage Thread - rules please abide

[vettewreck]

[B]females actually do the picking which explains the manipulation.

Thank you. I just had to quote that coming from a woman! lol

[SlimmerMe]

Thank you. I just had to quote that coming from a woman! lol

LOL x 2!

and I will add one more thing which was left out...
because of the 60's movement, men no longer felt needed. Everyone wants to feel needed. All of us. So when women got their power, men more or less threw their hands up in the air and said...YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN HONEY PIE!

[Times Roman]

It's interesting all the different perspectives we have

[stack_it]

Thanks mate! In many ways, I am a traditional family guy, and it is nice to know that there are others that feel the same way I do in certain areas. Far too often, with all our tolerence for gays, and non traditional family groupings, it is marriage that is getting the black eye, and it is marriage that people are becoming less tolerent with.

Let me tell you, i voted for the gay marriage proposal in california, but that shouldn't diminish marriage in any way. It seems peculiar to me that marriage seems to be falling out of favor.

Simple question. Everything else being exactly the same, if you were a younger child, wouldn't you prefer your parents to be committed in a long term relationship, as opposed to shacking up?

I know how I would answer that.

I'm a perfectly normal law abiding person and grew up without my father. Then had an alcohol step dad that died when I was 14. Wouldn't change any of it.

My sister and her boyfriend have been together for 20 years unmarried and are perfectly happy with two normal children who graduated highschool at the top of there classes and don't do drugs or party all the time.

I don't need a ring to believe someone loves me. I'd rather spend the money on something more important like test or a motorcycle.

[Bojangles69]

(I should note anyone who reads this entire post most likely has no life, but still has more of a life than me, so don't feel bad =])
Don't forget correlation does not equal causation, just because divorce rates went up the same time womens independence did does not mean one caused the other.

Divorce rates have actually rised for a multitude of different reasons, of which there is no motivation for me to talk about right now.
One thing I do want to state about womens independence however.

Since more women have joined the workforce, rates for female suicide, heart disease, stroke, drug/alcohol use have all raised in women too.
And womens life expectancy is predicted to drop over the years (as women integrate further into the workforce) as mens stay somewhat the same or even gets better.

NOW, about marraige. I want to say first that I study relationships both formally for school and nonformally in the seduction community. So I'm one of very few people who can take what research has shown, and real life has shown, and compare them both.
There are TONS of theories and hypotheses alluding to what causes divorce and all the different random shit that influences relationship satisfaction. Relationship turbelence model, principle of lesser interest (known as 'cat-string' theory in the seduction community), communal vs exchange relationships, but the SINGLE most important thing worth looking at is something I wanna cover briefly right now.

This theory is perhaps one of the most powerful determinants of relationship/marraige satisfaction and there ARE actually ways to measure it. But you would have to report to a counselor/therapist and have them test both you and your partner individually.

On the other hand, if you read/research on your own, you can often figure out whether your own relationship will work implementing not just the models from this theory, but all the other shit I mentioned before like communal vs exchange and what not.

This is as close to science as you will get in relationships, "social exchange theory" aka "interdependence theory". They are both the same so I may use them interchangeably.

A relationship is measured on 3 main things, yet this model only touches on 2 of those.
There is satisfaction, commitment (which for the sake of relationships is interchangable with dependency) and investments.

But for now we are only focusing on satisfaction and commitment.
Satisfaction in a relationship is measured by one thing, its called our "CL" or "comparison levels". Comparison levels can be measured through self report and a likert type scale. But they are the standards at which satisfaction is measured. If a CL is higher than the current outcome, you are NOT satisfied no
matter what.

A comparison level is merely based on 1 main thing, our past relationships. Its also based on the media, our parents, upbringing, but CL is very specific and very easy to measure. You will base your current satisfaction in your current relationship on how you were treated in the past, and this is NOT just romantic relationships, this permeates ANY relationship you've ever had in your life. And is also a major dictator of peoples self esteem.

If you were treated badly in the past, if relationships with teachers were bad, relationships with friends, relationships with lovers, then RIGHT NOW you are expecting the same thing, another bad relationship. We rarely ever actually compare our relationships to other peoples relationships to determine if they're good, we always compare them to our own past relationships. If your last relationship was great, you will be expecting another good one now, thats what determines satisfaction. You have whats known as a "high CL", but if your outcome isn't even higher (outcome as a measure of current relationship quality/satisfaction) you won't be happy.

Say you had 3 relationships:
Relationship 1 had a satisfaction level of 4 (out of 10)
Relationship 2 was a 2
Relationship 3 was a 1

Your current CL = 2.3

If the relationship you are in now is a 2.3 or above (outcome), you'll be satisfied, if its anywhere under 2.3 you won't. (remember this is just a theory but you won't realize how powerful it is till we cover CLalt).

Now there is another comparison level called "CLalt" which is how good you think you would do in another relationship.
If your CLalt is higher then your CL, and your outcome is higher than both, you're in a happy/stable relationship. Its really outcome that determines how everything works.

Saying your last relationship was a 4, you're expecting another 4 now, but if your present relationship is a 5 (outcome), your satisfied. However, you can still be satisfied but noncommited.
If your CLalt is a 7 (potential to do better in a new relationship with another person) you will be satisfied, but you won't be commited at all. You will likely cheat/breakup and a high CLalt is the number 1 trigger for unstable relationships. All it takes for divorce, is for 1 person to be unsatisfied, don't forget that.


So outcomes - CL = Satisfaction or Dissatisfaction
And outcomes - CLalt = Dependence or Independence


Lets apply this to a marraige.

2 people.
Person A is a male, his last relationship before getting married wasn't that good. He scores it a 3. The outcome of his current marriage is a 4, thus he is satisfied.
Yet his CLalt is a 1, which will always keep him stuck in the relationship regardless of how satisfied he is (his outcome is better than what he believes he can do anywhere else). If he can't do better in another relationship, but his current relationship is better than his last, but STILL SUCKS, he's not going anywhere. As long as its better than his last he's satisfied.

Person B is the female. Her last relationship before getting married was a 6, she considers the current outcome with person A to be a 5. And her CLalt is a 8. What does that mean? Because the outcome is lower than she expected from her CL, shes NOT satisfied, and because her potential to do better is high, she will be neither commitied or satisfied. This relationship is doomed to end in divorce.

Your CL and CLalt don't change untill one relationship ends and another begins. So as long as you are in one relationship right now, they make excellent predictors of the outcome of that relationship.

Theres 6 different ways CL & CLalt can manifest in relationships. Heres a brief summary.

Anything listed *above another word means the quality is better, anything underneath means the quality is worse. You can imagine a scale of 1-10 on the left, where quality is close to 10 for the higher words, and closer to 1 for the lower words.

Outcome
CLalt
CL >>> A happy stable/commited relationship


Outcome
CL
CLalt >>> A happy stable/commited relationship


CL
Outcome
CLalt >>> An unhappy, but stable/commited relationship


CLalt
Outcome
CL >>> A happy, unstable/noncommited relationship


CL
CLalt
Outcome >>> An unhappy, unstable/noncomitted relationship

Just remember, when outcome is higher than CL you're happy/confident/satisfied.
When outcome is higher than CLalt you're commited/dependent/stable.
When CL is higher than outcome, your unhappy/insecure/unsatisfied.
When CLalt is higher than outcome, your noncommited, and bound to cheat or find a new partner.

As simple as this sounds it gets tricky when you add the 3rd dimension of investments into it.
Investments can be sunk costs like time (things you don't get back)
or other things like money, personal milestones, and even self esteem. Lots of
people don't understand self esteem is an investment, and if you are the one who
is dumped, that becomes a "sunk cost". You're not getting it back. But some people have high enough self esteem, where if the invest a little, it doesn't really matter to them when they lose it.

Investments can keep you in a relationship when you are both unsatisfied AND noncommited. Thats why winds up ****ing up a lot of shit and making people turn real ugly on each other.
Have kids? A house neither one of you are willing to lose? Car? Property?
Maybe you're just being miserable and waiting for your time investments to pay
off?

And this is what leads to the "principle of lesser interest". People with less
invesments in a relationship ALWAYS have more power. Do NOT **** this up or
you will be sorry down the road. The man who is spending thousands a week on jewelry and presents for his gf is a ****ing tool. He will NOT get up and leave and
his mate knows that due to all the investments he's made.
She can then proceed to **** other guys, and shit on him and general and he's still likely not going anywhere.

The less invested you are, the better off you are. But as a general rule of thumb don't aim to be completely uninvested, aim merely to be less invested than your
partner. At certain points if you show too little investment, you throw off the
relationships "proportional justice" which can cause your mate to leave regardless
of investments. These are all theories, there are no absolutes in theory, but still
use all this knowledge to your advantage when you can.

And lastly, I do want to talk about communal vs exchange relationships for a second and how they apply to divorce/marraige and the overall exchange theory.
Exchange relationships are by far the most common and easiest to find, while communal are less prevalent although they do still exist in varying degrees. Exchange relationships are based on the desire of and expecation for immediate repayment anytime benefits are given.
A communal relationship is one that is governed by the mutual responsiveness of others needs.

Exchange -
(when we do favors) We prefer people who pay us back immediately
(when others do a favor) We prefer those who ask for immediate repayment
(when working on a joint task) We try to ensure that our contributions are distinguished from those of others.
(when we help others) Our moods and self-evaluations change only slightly

Communal -
(when we do favors) We don't prefer those who pay us back immediately
(when others do a favor) We prefer those who don't ask for immediate repayment
(joint tasks) We don't make clear any distinction between anothers work and our own
(when we help others) Our moods moods brigthen and our self-evaluation improves.

Exchange theory however still applies to both equally, as exchange theory is based on both responsiveness and investments. But in such a highly industrialized nation as USA, you definitely find a much higher prevalence of exchange relationships. We are not all investment managers constantly persuing
the highest possible profits. As exchange theory can leave a person tolerating
no benefits at all for high contributions.

If a female had an abusive partner who hit her 10 times a week in her last relationship, and her current partner only hits her 5 times a week, and she views alternative potential in other relationships as low, she will stay in an abusive relationship while simultanesouly being satisfied/happy. Thats the best part about
exchange theory as it can explain any relationship. In summation, I tried to use as much research as possible here and apply it to marraiges, but I think largely relationships that succeed have 2 partners who are both experienced in relationships and UNDERSTAND commitment.
Many young adolescents and teenagers DO NOT understand commitment. And commitment, intimacy and passion are the 3 main aspects of love. You always usually start high in passion then transform in later years to lower levels of passion and higher commitment and intimacy. A 23 year old is more likely to leave when passion degrades vs acknowleding increased commitment as a a form of love. And a 35 year old is much more likely to stay during this reevaluation period in marraiges. There are essentially tons of factors all playing a role in divorce, but I truely believe experience is everything. Research has also shown people with less experience who also tend to be younger, experience higher levels of passion early on in a relationship which essentially will exhaust itself faster in the eary course of things.
Thats why if you get into a relationship, and passion is through the roof. You guys are fvcking like rabbits, having romantic dinners, telling each other "I love you" every 5 seconds, you're in worse shape than a couple who has a more moderate level of passion. Once that reevaluation period occurs, you will not recognize increased levels of intimacy and commitment, yet ONLY the diminished level of passion. Which obviously causes you to misattribute the quality of the relationship and bye bye soul mate. The word soul mate itself to me conveys a lack of experience and when I see people using it I usually take it as a sign that they lack enough past relationship experience.

Anyway, this has turned out long as fvck and I should prob end it here. But I figured I chime in here to give a more boring/educational take on things.

-Bo

[Times Roman]

my eyes hurt

so if I'm a beater, and usually beat my women only 5 times a week, then I should look for women that are used to getting beat 10x a week and hook up with them, and they'll think i'm a great guy? ok, that's a dumb asss example, but in a weird bizzaro world kinda way, it makes sense.....

OK, now pull this back to reality. Say I've got a 5" wang (maybe I'm asian?). So If I only hook up with women that have had a 4" wang (max), then I make the top of their list in their secret book. Am I on track here?

[Knockout_Power]

men no longer have the previous deep urge to pin anymore....

hah, ask my lady if I dont get those deep urges to pin her down =)... evolution doesnt exist in my life

[SlimmerMe]

^^^ a real caveman! few left

[stevey_6t9]

[Knockout_Power]

good point, I can see where you are going with this...

[Knockout_Power]

are we back to double and triple posts? damn it...

[D3m3nt3d]

Thats why if you get into a relationship, and passion is through the roof. You guys are fvcking like rabbits, having romantic dinners, telling each other "I love you" every 5 seconds, you're in worse shape than a couple who has a more moderate level of passion. Once that reevaluation period occurs, you will not recognize increased levels of intimacy and commitment, yet ONLY the diminished level of passion. Which obviously causes you to misattribute the quality of the relationship and bye bye soul mate.

This really applies to the way my wife views her relationships; which explains why we are now separated. I think she confuses love for lust. She has other issues aside, which do not help matters. She seems to have a lot of emotional immaturity, even at her age of 26. I believe this has a lot to do with her shitty upbringing.

[chemicalromance]

My parents (both catholic) divorced when i was 10 and they were both married once before. I am now in my late 20's, college educated with two older brothers. The more i associate with/date mothers my age, the more i realize just how good my parents did raising me and my two brothers. I am still comepletely respectful of my mom and dad, even tho they absolutely hate eachother. I cant count how many opportunities i had as a teen to cheat on gf's, do drugs, not study or just fukk off in general. By the time i was a teen i just knew not to do these things and the only reason i can come up with as to why is my genetics(mom and dad). I still partied, smoked pot, made my gf miss a period lol, but nothing ever got out of control because i always knew self control.

Kids have no self control today. I dont care if they are 5years old or 17. The first grader who wont listen, is impulsive or not respectful is the adult who cheats, takes the easy road, is a golddigger/slut. Like KnockoutPower said, excuses/medications are always made for bad kids and those kids turn into that impulsive golddinggin piece of hot ass with nice tits like D3m3mt3d's wife. I mean no offense by that either..More and more people are showing they dont have or want the self control to be married today.

And that sunburned girl in the bikini must be single bacause any boyfriend would have rubbed those boobs down with a mix of sbf40 lotion and ball jooze..

[UberSteroids]

Marriage is nothing more than just a more "official" relationship. I'm 27 and I don't see myself getting married till I am at least 35.

If you are with someone for a long time (at least 3 years) but you feel as you just met and you guys have a great time together and you don't see yourself with anyone else as she is all you ever wanted... then go for it. Anyone who rushes it takes a risk... this is why there is so many divorces... and bunch of all other BS. People think they are in love and are meant for each other after dating for 6 months.

[D3m3nt3d]

Like KnockoutPower said, excuses/medications are always made for bad kids and those kids turn into that impulsive golddinggin piece of hot ass with nice tits like D3m3mt3d's wife

But boy would I love to get in between them tits one more time

[Nicotine]

a piece of paper doesn't define a good solid relationship.

for us homos in canada, it can help protect one another in an emergency situation....

so while marriage isn't for me - maybe someday.

[Bojangles69]

my eyes hurt

so if I'm a beater, and usually beat my women only 5 times a week, then I should look for women that are used to getting beat 10x a week and hook up with them, and they'll think i'm a great guy? ok, that's a dumb asss example, but in a weird bizzaro world kinda way, it makes sense.....

Well just to reiterate I'm really just trying to apply science and research models to the real world so theres always a chance I will fvck up in some way.

"Self-verification" is a weird theory that says people don't want to be complimented nor do they want to be insulted.
All they want is for someone to treat them in a way that matches the way they treat themself.

For example, you find an insecure girl and compliment her saying "you know what you are really smart".
That girls low self esteem won't allow her to apply that compliment to who she is as a person aka her identity.

So she assumes a variety of things:
He obviously has no idea who the real me is/doesn't know anything about me
He obviously is just trying to get in my pants
He obviously is just extremely dumb

Whatever she thinks it will be something that runs congruent to what she always believes about herself,
and will allow to her dismiss a lot of things that just may be true (maybe she really is smart).

In terms of the beating, if you beat your girl 5x a week, it doesn't really matter one bit. It depends more on the actual interaction and where shes coming from too.
If she was use to being beat 5x a week, and you now beat her 4x a week, that will technically be a much better relationship for her
than meeting a guy who only beats her 2xs a week.
A lot of people don't understand this but its based on the same concepts of "money can't buy happiness".

Humans can ONLY improve/evolve at a limited rate. For example, you're a bum, I give you 10 million dollars, you are bound to start having panic attacks, being depressed, and being a complete mess of a person. You identify yourself as a "bum" or "poor", your entire identity resides on the stability of you always being that way. So once thats taken away, regardless of whats put in its place, you have no idea how to act, how to live, how to be in general. So you almost always resort back to being that bum. You give the money away, blow it on shit you dont need, you do almost anything to sabatoge the potential of taking on a new identity that
you are deeply unfamiliar with. People like familiarity more than something that is merely 'good'.

This can also be seen sometimes when some people get promotions and wind up quitting their job or taking on a drinking problem.

People DO NOT KNOW how to instantly reform their identities so they can feel "normal" in new roles (ways of behaving), even if they are technically better roles to have. So you should really just find out what the girls past relationships were like, and mimic a role that is only a *slight improvement on her past boyfriends. Too much improvement and she assumes you don't know her for who she is, too little improvement will just remind her of her old bf. So if she was beat 5 times a day, aim
for beating her only 3-4 times lol.
Its dumb as shit to talk about this way, but it would be the basic gist of it all.

[Knockout_Power]

But boy would I love to get in between them tits one more time

an honest man, good to see... at least there were some good things about her.

[Knockout_Power]

for us homos in canada, it can help protect one another in an emergency situation....
.

Damn you Nico, I just spit my cinnimon toast crunch all over the monitor while reading that... now buy me a new one!!!

[zaggahamma]

imo, legal marriage is for religious reasons alone

monogamy is a different ballgame

[Nicotine]

no......

why on earth are you eating cinnamon toast crunch at 7:17pm at night for anyway? :P

[fattymcbutterpants]

I think it might just have to do with how I was raised and everything, but I believe in marriage. I understand why many people are against it or whatever because it is true the divorce rate is so high, but honestly I think thats just from those people rushing into it and then realizing they dont really workout. I want to spend the rest of my life with someone, sure it will be hard at times and nothing is perfect but to me its worth it. I mean sure it sounds cool saying your gonna be single or bang whoever you want or whatever, but I mean honestly when im old and decrepit I want someone to be there with me and to have someone in my life.

I mean to cut the shit you can say you come into this world and leave it alone if you want. Ive heard guys say that on here a bunch and I mean sure its true, but I would much rather die with the one I've loved all my life by my side than just be some old geezer that died. I want kids and to be a dad and have a family. If you want something else then thats you but I believe in marriage and I believe in it being for life.

[valencia1]

Married for 19 years and although there have been some close calls it looks like we will make it for the duration. My suggestions: marry for money and looks and sense of humor. The money helps everything go more smoothly. It is sure nice to have someone around who looks hot even after all these years. And, she will need the sense of humor to put up with all your shit and fvck-ups. Great sex would be nice but you can always rent that with the $...

[Knockout_Power]

no......

why on earth are you eating cinnamon toast crunch at 7:17pm at night for anyway? :P

cause I was too lazy to cook and there was only 1 bowl left in the box and i wanted all the crap out of my place before I start my diet Dec 1... so come to think of it, I want a box of chicken breasts instead

[Standby]

wow bo you really out did yourself in this thread lol thats alot of text and my ass read it all i like it btw good sh*t

[lil_herc81]

I would say the reason for marriage is not complex. For my wife and I; were best friends, we want to have children and a chance at a fruitful life and for me.. Im Fu@king crazy, so a woman that wants to stay is worth it. Being single there isnt really any stability and its hard to have nice things unless you have a great income. If you make a ton of money then that changes everything and it comes down to if you want a family.

[zaggahamma]

I would say the reason for marriage is not complex. For my wife and I; were best friends, we want to have children and a chance at a fruitful life and for me.. Im Fu@king crazy, so a woman that wants to stay is worth it. Being single there isnt really any stability and its hard to have nice things unless you have a great income. If you make a ton of money then that changes everything and it comes down to if you want a family.

so u cant have a family without marriage i dont see where u made the point of marriage...all the things you say are nice and i agree but cant you have all that without marriage

[BigJuice777]

Marriage is the best thing that has ever happened to me. She is amazing! She is smokin hot, my best friend and still loves me after all the stupid sh!t I do

[JohnnyVegas]

I am for marriage...even after my first divorce. I don't believe the paper brings any guarantees, and while logic screams that it is meaningless, I think it is the best way to show commitment. Well, other than simply being faithful. It is especially important when children are involved, mostly so they grow up with the belief that the two people caring for them are committed to one another.

I am married for a second time (12 years the first time) and think this one will stick! :-)

[DSM4Life]

my eyes hurt

so if I'm a beater, and usually beat my women only 5 times a week, then I should look for women that are used to getting beat 10x a week and hook up with them, and they'll think i'm a great guy? ok, that's a dumb asss example, but in a weird bizzaro world kinda way, it makes sense.....

OK, now pull this back to reality. Say I've got a 5" wang (maybe I'm asian?). So If I only hook up with women that have had a 4" wang (max), then I make the top of their list in their secret book. Am I on track here?

Your wangs only 5inches, loser.

[Times Roman]

Your wangs only 5inches, loser.

well, until it starts getting hard and begins to grow!

let me tell ya, I wear pants like these, legs on either side, but that middle leg can sometimes cut off the circulation abit.