Separation of Church and State.

[Tock]

Best thing I have heard in a long time!!

Tock, but since "teaching" everything is so important, how can we automatically excuse a child from learning the pledge of allegiance, including "under God" just becasue they don't want to. A parent's note should be required in order for the child to not say it. It's too important a part of our country's history.
ttgb

The courts have said that if they take "under God" out of the pledge, then it's ok to have the kids recite it.
Otherwise, the state cannot ask people if they wish to participate in anything religious. They can't ask if you approve of it, or if you disapprove. They can't ask if you beleive in God or if you don't, they can't ask what religion you belong to, they can't ask why you don't belong to a particular church or why you have no beleifs at all.
As soon as the state says, "Ok, anyone who wants to be excused can come and tell us," they are asking people to volunteer whether or not they want to participate in saying a religious phrase. And back in 1963, the Supreme Court said that the gov't can't do that, as well it shouldn't.

On top of that, every person in this country has the right not to participate in a state-sponsored religious activity (yes, when a taxpayer funded public school does the "one nation under god" thing, it's a state-sponsored religious activity--a very brief one, but still a religious activity), and a person can not be required to volunteer whether or not they wish to participate in order to exercise their First Amendment rights under the US Constitution.

So . . .

You hear a lot of whining that "liberals are against the Pledge of Allegience," but really all it is, is a fight by religious people to keep as many references to religion in public schools that they can. If the Pledge had the two words "under god" removed (and why not? That's what we had from 1897 to 1954, and it worked fine), then it would be not only constitutional, but welcomed into public school systems by lily-livered liberals all over the nation. The religious conservatives wouldn't like it, 'cause they'd consider it had been neutered, but it would still be a statement of patriotism.
I say let the religious people whine, let's neuter the pledge and get it back where it belongs . . .
--Tock

[Tock]

Tock you well know that I am very conservative and do agree with most of the ideals from the right side. But I did want to clarify one point you made about not providing health care, etc. to those citizins (heavy emphasis on "citizens") that cannot fend for themselves. I do believe in providing food stamps, unemployment, health care for those that aren't able to provide for themselves...BUT, only for a limited amount of time.

I get sick and tired of seeing these people on welfare, food stamps, etc and still having babies, getting paid more a month for more babies and them living off of it their whole lives. What really pisses me off is seeing some of the welfare kids showing up at school with their Mom dropping them off in a brand new $30,000 car. They can't afford lunch for their kids or school supplies, but they will have a brand new car, kick ass stereo system in it and all of them wearing $150 nike shoes. That is ridiculous and NOT the American way...IMO.

peace,

ttgb

I still have mixed feelings about welfare . . . I've seen some abuse, seen people collect for no other reason than they were too lazy to work and were accustomed to getting free public money. On the other hand, I've seen honest working people get laid off or get sick or have sick kids, or have generall terrible things happen to 'em, and need $$$.
I suppose I'm in favor of helping folks who genuinely need it.
But then, suppose someone becomes homeless from either laziness, or maybe they had been brought up by an idiot parent who didn't teach 'em ethics or how to work, etc. What do we do with them then? Let 'em wander the streets, become a health hazard, or wander into crime?
I really don't know . . .
It might be cheaper to taxpayers to pay more for personalized education (tutors) or special schools or whatever, than to let them become a problem and warehouse them in a prison for $40,000 a year. But then, are there reasons to suppose that wouldn't be a smart thing to do, after all?
I don't know . . . you tell me . . .

But pretty much, I think we agree about most stuff. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised at all if after we discussed all this political and religious stuff that we'd agree on more things than not.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it . . .
--Tock

[spywizard]

Another thing we agree on...............

now im scared........

They did this in ???? can't remember the country... they paid $100 per vasectemy...

One of the more interesting aspects of the conflict between liberals and conservatives is that one group (for the most part) holds that even if the parents don't take care of the kids, the state has no obligation to take up the slack, while the other group feels that yes, when parents drop the ball on things like sex ed, or basic health care, it's the government's responsibility to take care of them.
IMHO both sides of the dispute have merit . . . probably mass neutering and spaying of the irresponsible adult human population would be the smart thing to do . . .
--Tock

[chicamahomico]

You took my bait sucker...... just kidding buds. Your example is excellent because you obviously care a great deal bout your children, however many other children are not in the enviable position of having parents who do care enough to educate them. Thats primarily the reason I think it should be taught in school. The children with good parents are in no danger, its all the little Sally's with crack-ho momma's that could benefit from state sponsored sex education.

Maybe this will help......You give birth to a child... it is a representation of you.. you house it, cloth it, share your life with it.........

[symatech]

I too have mixed feelings about welfare. the other day i was at the supermarket and this guy I know who happens to be on welfare is in line behind me. Ive got my frozen chicken breasts and a few cans of tuna and this guy is buying steaks and beer. Whats more he is bragging about eating steak while im eating chicken breast. Before i left I shot a mean glance at him and made some comment like 'you know i paid for that steak' but he didnt seem to care.

However, I know there are people who legitimately need welfare to survive. Perhaps it should only be granted to those with children? I dont know. I think as long as there are rules there will always be those who try and sway them....makes me sick sometimes. but I still dont think that we should get rid of it all together.

And $$$$ for vasectomy? thats a **** good idea

[Mr. Death]

You hear a lot of whining that "liberals are against the Pledge of Allegience," but really all it is, is a fight by religious people to keep as many references to religion in public schools that they can. If the Pledge had the two words "under god" removed (and why not? That's what we had from 1897 to 1954, and it worked fine), then it would be not only constitutional, but welcomed into public school systems by lily-livered liberals all over the nation. The religious conservatives wouldn't like it, 'cause they'd consider it had been neutered, but it would still be a statement of patriotism.
I say let the religious people whine, let's neuter the pledge and get it back where it belongs . . .
--Tock

I understand your point, but I think it is unfair to label all of the supporters of the words "under God" as religious zealots. Like I said, I am atheist, but I believe the words "under God" should be kept in the Pledge because those words are based on the principles by which our country was founded. IMO you don't have to believe in God to respect and praise what others do in his name.

[spywizard]

Crap..........i thought i had argued the other side of this subject also...........

I agree........it is for the Sally crack ho momma's ..............

but then i believe you should have a license to have children...

but that leads to the whole............ who sets the guidlines and requirments.. much as many religions, governments, and societies have done in the past... and we don't want to jack this thread do we...........

You took my bait sucker...... just kidding buds. Your example is excellent because you obviously care a great deal bout your children, however many other children are not in the enviable position of having parents who do care enough to educate them. Thats primarily the reason I think it should be taught in school. The children with good parents are in no danger, its all the little Sally's with crack-ho momma's that could benefit from state sponsored sex education.

[Tock]

Like I said, I am atheist, but I believe the words "under God" should be kept in the Pledge because those words are based on the principles by which our country was founded.

From what I understand, the folks who financed the first trips from Europe to North America did so expecting financial profit . . . the East India Company comes to mind as one of the most prominent ones in England. These financiers hoped to make $$$ by finding gold, a shortcut to China, and sending various raw materials (which they'd process and send back to the colonies for sale) and tobacco back to Europe . . .
The first folks to go to Canada were interested mainly in a shortcut to China and trapping for furs . . . Yah, the primary reason for people to settle in North America was the desire for profit. Greed, if you will.
Religious terror came along with it, as well . . . You'll recall that when the Puritans sailed from Europe, they took along with them a number of people who were not members of their sect. When they arrived off the coast of Massachusetts, they wouldn't let anyone off the ship unless they signed the Mayflower Compact, agreeing to live by their theocratical rules. It was either that or die. Yah, those are great principles to establish a nation on.
Religious discrimination was routine in colonial America, 1620 to the 1700's. Massachusetts had rules outlawing the observation of Christmas, because they considered it a "Catholic" ritual. Those offending this rule were given one warning, on the second offense they were hanged. Quakers were routinely hanged in Massachusetts as well, and they didn't think much of Baptists, either.
None of the colonies tolerated Catholics whatsoever, and when a person was discovered to be one, their house was burned down, and if they were lucky, they were allowed to leave the colony with their lives. England's Lord Baltimore struck a deal with England's rulers and got a land grand for what is now the State of Maryland, and Lord Baltimore, being Catholic himself, set up that colony with the first sign of religious tolerance where both Catholics and Protestants were allowed to live. Quakers were still frowned on, however, and they were routinely thrown out of the state.
Roger Williams was accused in Massachusetts for teaching false religious ideas, and fled for his life to a small settlement in what is now Rhode Island.
During the Salem Witch Trials in the 1690's it was considered proper proceedure to offer evidence like "Invisible demons were biting at my flesh, and so-and-so made a pact with the Devil." Because of foolishness like this, twenty innocent people were hanged, and a bunch of others lost property and standing in their community. Eventually things got so out of hand there that the Massachusetts Governor decreed that "spectral evidence would no longer be acceptable in court."
If you owned property in Massachusetts (I know a lot about Mass. 'cause I used to live there) your property was taxed to pay the bills of your local Congregational (the official State-supported church). They continued to do this until 1835 when the US Supreme Court ruled the practice unconstitutional.
If you didn't show up for church on Sunday, on Monday morning a church official would be at your door asking why. If you didn't have a good excuse, you'd be locked in the public stocks AND fined. Those folks didn't mess around. They meant business . . .
There's more . . . lots more . . . but you get the picture, I'm sure. This country was built by people seeking a better life than what they had in Europe, and it was financed by the "Old Money" there looking for a good return on their investment. They brought their religious traditions with them and usually established them as law and require people to live according to the rules in the Old Testament, chasing out (or killing) dissenters, freethinkers, Baptists, Unitarians, Catholics, etc etc etc.
So . . . when people say that America was founded on religious principles, they're not quite right. It was primarily founded on the hope of a better standard of living, making a profit, AND a large helping of religious bigotry. Nowadays there are religious leaders who want to perpetrate the notion that "America was founded as a Christian Nation" largely because they're "professional Christians" and their income and prestige depend upon persuading as many people as they can into joining their movement. They assume that since there were christians in North America from way way back, then they have the right to inherit a priveledged position in society. Of course, they aren't going to mention the things like institutional religious intolerance, the hangings, mandatory church attendance, property taxation, because, well, because that wouldn't paint a very pretty picture, would it?

So . . . keeping the words "under God" in the pledge of allegience just because there were a bunch of religious bigots in the country (except maybe in Maryland) back in the 1600's and 1700's ain't a very good reason. Profit and the desire for better living standards, IMHO, had more to do with the founding of this country, and if you're going to stick a phrase of "under" anything in the Pledge, it may as well be "one nation under profit" as the US is, and always has been, and always will be, more about $$$ than religion.

--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

I'm not buying all of that Tock....

BUT...

I have discovered after reading through all of these posts that we all share pretty much the same moral standards...to the point of it being almost scary!

Although we disagree on some of the finer points and various other views, all of our morals are very much in line with each others! As much as I disagree with some of you from time to time on the little things, it is very comforting to know that we all share the same foundation!

peace,

ttgb

[Tock]

I'm not buying all of that Tock....

ttgb

As they say in Antarctica, "No sweat."
--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

As they say in Antarctica, "No sweat."
--Tock

We won't be able to say that here in Texas in about 2 months!!

[symatech]

maybe sooner than that ttgb. you know what they say bro, 'if you dont like the weather in texas, wait ten minutes.'

On another note: I suppose all these discussions really boil down to the same foundation. Who is supposed to lay out the laws saying whats right and wrong. We are all people, and as such are not perfect. so the laws we live by are inherintly flawwed as well. who can say who should have a licence to have children, or who should be on welfare. I guess as long as people try to do some good there will always be those who exploit it. shame.

Im happy where this thread has gone. Im glad we didnt end up yellin at each other like so many other threads

peace

[Red Ketchup]

It's pretty scary anyways...

You need a license for a dog...
You need a license to drive a car...
You need a pernit to build a house...
You need a permit to sell junk on the street!

ANY MORON can have children...

It's a sad sad world.

Red

[tryingtogetbig]

It's pretty scary anyways...

You need a license for a dog...
You need a license to drive a car...
You need a pernit to build a house...
You need a permit to sell junk on the street!

ANY MORON can have children...

It's a sad sad world.

Red

Crazy world!!

[ttuPrincess]

ANY MORON can have children...

It's a sad sad world.

VERY SCARY!!!!!! Just look at San Antonio Texas to prove that one.... j/k

[symatech]

VERY SCARY!!!!!! Just look at San Antonio Texas to prove that one.... j/k

I hate san antonio and Bexar county and all the police there who lock up people for stupid reasons!!!!!

[ttuPrincess]

I hate san antonio and Bexar county and all the police there who lock up people for stupid reasons!!!!!

Did you have a little encounter there???... I hate it too... raised ther for 12 years and I got out as fast as I could!!!!!!

[symatech]

Did you have a little encounter there???

on more than one occasion..youd think id learn what sucks even more is that come summer ill probably be transferring schools there.

ps. i like your sig....ima dancer too

[ttuPrincess]

ps. i like your sig....ima dancer too

Then you understand that theres not supose to be any sexual enuendo to it.....it means ballet position!

[symatech]

i think you mean innuendo i dont dance ballet though....my toes would not support me

[ttuPrincess]

i think you mean innuendo i dont dance ballet though....my toes would not support me

Yes that's probably what I meant, but then again who knows.. I often like to make up my own words and language.....hey when your waiting to get on stage you have a lot of time on your hands and you think of wierd stuff..... or it could be the blond hair.. or the fact that I failed spelling in elementry school.....

as for the supporting toes thing... mine dont always support me...

But I think we have officially jacked this thread.. I will now hand it back over to those who want to continue talking about the previos topic.... Have a nice day!!!! and stay out of San Antonio if you can.. it will suck the life out of you like a leach!!!!!!

[symatech]

lol i jacked my own thread.

[ttuPrincess]

lol i jacked my own thread.

Oh **** your right I didn't even notice that!!! How funny!!!

[50%Natural]

1) Problem is that here in Texas, it's mandatory unless the parent sends a written note asking the child to be excused. I don't know what happens next, if the kid is supposed to sit down while everyone else stands and goes through the ritual, or has to stand in the back of the room, or stand in the hall until the festivities are over.
--Tock

That is why I said that, I'm in texas, I went to elem school in the north houston area...I remember you might have needed a permission/note saying that the religion or lack there of allowed you not to have to say it. There weren't any kids that did that(in my classes) but at the beginning of each year(3rd, 4th, 5th) as I remember, the teacher notified us on the first day about the disclaimer.

[symatech]

That is why I said that, I'm in texas, I went to elem school in the north houston area...I remember you might have needed a permission/note saying that the religion or lack there of allowed you not to have to say it. There weren't any kids that did that(in my classes) but at the beginning of each year(3rd, 4th, 5th) as I remember, the teacher notified us on the first day about the disclaimer.

same for me. i went to jr high in austin and we had to have our parents sign a disclaimer to let us take sex ed in school. we never said the pledge though....ever.

[ttuPrincess]

same for me. i went to jr high in austin and we had to have our parents sign a disclaimer to let us take sex ed in school. we never said the pledge though....ever.

We also had to have our parents sign something saying we could take Sex Ed..... but even when my parents sign that they still did not teach me anything about sex, when I was about 12 I came home from school and found a small book laying on my bed.. it talked about male and female parts and how a baby was made..... if I would not have had Sex Ed I might never have truely known about sex untill i had experienced it for myself, or about STD's, and might not have waited as long as I did. That is why I feel so strongly about teaching Sex Ed in schoool...
Just my 2 cents .. that I already gave before!!!

[ttuPrincess]

to add on .. IMO schools should teach abstinance, but they should also teach safe sex.. if a child is goign to have sex, they are going to have sex.....atleast this way they are informed

[Tock]

We also had to have our parents sign something saying we could take Sex Ed..... but even when my parents sign that they still did not teach me anything about sex, when I was about 12 I came home from school and found a small book laying on my bed.. it talked about male and female parts and how a baby was made..... if I would not have had Sex Ed I might never have truely known about sex untill i had experienced it for myself, or about STD's, and might not have waited as long as I did. That is why I feel so strongly about teaching Sex Ed in schoool...
Just my 2 cents .. that I already gave before!!!

lol . . .
Ya, my dad was 10 kinds of flustered when he took me aside and showed me some line drawings in a Time-Life book . . . he said, "A man's penis is about the size of his thumb," and I looked at my hand and thought, "OMG, I'm grossly deformed!"
I didn't learn too much that day . . . Didn't learn much about sex until some OJT came along . . . I'm lucky all that was before HIV . . .
--Tock

[ttuPrincess]

Ok maybe its me being naieve (SP??) but what is a OJT?????

[Tock]

Ok maybe its me being naieve (SP??) but what is a OJT?????

OJT = On the Job Training . . . learning as you go along . . .

[spywizard]

The only sex ed we got was my jr high football coach told us.."you all know what condoms are, use them... Now give me 2 laps"

too funny....

thank you penthouse.......... and uncle jack... (subscription.)

lol . . .
Ya, my dad was 10 kinds of flustered when he took me aside and showed me some line drawings in a Time-Life book . . . he said, "A man's penis is about the size of his thumb," and I looked at my hand and thought, "OMG, I'm grossly deformed!"
I didn't learn too much that day . . . Didn't learn much about sex until some OJT came along . . . I'm lucky all that was before HIV . . .
--Tock

[ttuPrincess]

I see.. thanks for the educational lesson!!!!

[tryingtogetbig]

The only sex ed we got was my jr high football coach told us.."you all know what condoms are, use them... Now give me 2 laps"

too funny....

thank you penthouse.......... and uncle jack... (subscription.)

The good ole days!!

[wingsofazrael]

i forget who posted it, but i will comment on the remark about most terrorists being muslims, since i am a muslim. you really think these people are terrorists??? they are just tired of constantly being ran over and having negative western values forced on them by our government, who by the way, continues to support one of the worst land grabs ever (israel). not to mention supporting the brutal israeli govt who commit war crimes on a routine basis and force the palestinians to live in refugee camps. hell yes id be mad and willing to do just about anything to save and get back what was mine. as for the religious aspect of it, i admire and respect true jews and christians. whether or not they realize it, my God is the same as their God and if you read otherwise you are getting the wrong information. just as the jews think the christians are heretics, the christians consider muslims heretics. but we are all of the Abrahamic faiths. Allah is not some moon god...it stands for 'The God'. and it can not be pluralized. my problem is the not the jewish people, but the unreligious israeli govt. and all the hate and animosity that muslims across the world have for the U.S. comes from our uneven backing of israel. i support a jewish state, but i also support a palestinian state...which israel is determined to not let exist. now...before anyone calls me anti-U.S., i leave for the military in a few months, and i love this country, but i dont always like the govts decisions. the part of the pledge that says '...under God...' i have no problem with even though im not christian. because as it was said before this country was founded on religion basically. and my God is the same God as the one mentioned in the pledge...the only God. a religious govt wouldnt be that bad as long as they still allowed all of our freedoms. what is the difference being punished by a regular court or a religious court??? probably none depending on your actions or criminal act. ****. sorry for all this...i think the dbol is making me act funny or maybe the tren is finally getting to me. anyways, my thoughts on it...

[Tock]

[QUOTE=wingsofazrael]

1) my problem is the not the jewish people, but the unreligious israeli govt. and all the hate and animosity that muslims across the world have for the U.S. comes from our uneven backing of israel. i support a jewish state, but i also support a palestinian state...which israel is determined to not let exist.

2) now...before anyone calls me anti-U.S., i leave for the military in a few months, and i love this country, but i dont always like the govts decisions.

QUOTE]


You covered a lot of ground, I'll reply to two parts . . .
1) Unfortunately, not too many people are aware of what's going on over there, the nature of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, or the conflict's history. I agree with you completely, there should be both an Israel and a Palestine, but gosh & b'golly, the fundamentalist Israelis are sure making things difficult for everyone, and the US doesn't need to support any of that.

2) Good luck in the military, thanks for being willing to put your butt on the line in that dangerous job . . . BTW, which branch are you going into? Army?
--Tock

[wingsofazrael]

the point you make about the history of the palestinian/israeli conflict is a good one. in the U.S. you mostly only hear support for israel, and thats because they make the palestinians look like they are in the wrong. im not an unconditional backer of muslims whether or not they are right...i am a backer of someone who does right. not all muslims are good muslims, same thing with jews and christians. and whats going on israel, is not right, and i understand the palestinian anger. and im joining the army. leave may 5, one month after my cycle ends. and i cant wait to leave, i think that everyone should do a minimum military enlistment. im sure it will make a big difference. i was re-reading my earlier post...Al-Qaeda...they are terrorists. they are people without a home. islamic jihad, hizbollah, hamas...theyre called terrorists, but they have a home...in palestine, and that is all they want. they dont hate america, they just want their land and assets and freedoms back. Al-Qaeda, thats terrorism. theyre bad muslims who commit horrible acts, under the pretense of defending muslims worldwide, to further their own unislamic agenda. and thats sad, because it really makes islam look bad. ubl is an apostate and should be killed. end of story.