Give some Info To My Newbie A*s Please

[turboneon95]

I wanna Do just a small 250 of test enth once a week for ten weeks and 20mg of Dbol Everyday For The First 4 Weeks. I have some Pregnly-chorionic gonadotrophin and Solven Proprenly also. I am not really sure exactly what they even are but i know their HGC Or A HCG or whatever it is. thats all i have to work with any other anti estrogens and coming off drugs i need, has to be a legal suplement. I also am Taking Cell Tech, Nitro Tech, Glutomine, multi-vitamins. Any HELP OR SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREAT THANX

[seanw]

What are your stats bro ? How old are you, what do you weigh, how long you been workiing out ? Most of the recommendations here are for a Test only cycle to start with. Probably around 300 to 400 a week is enough. You will need Nolvadex for PCT which you need to do at the end of the cycle, some use it all the way through as well. Have you done any research on the forums ? There is tons of info here that will answer most of your questions just use the search engine.

[hung-solo]

research bro tons of it too, it pays off in the end..

[znak]

I wanna Do just a small 250 of test enth once a week for ten weeks and 20mg of Dbol Everyday For The First 4 Weeks. I have some Pregnly-chorionic gonadotrophin and Solven Proprenly also. I am not really sure exactly what they even are but i know their HGC Or A HCG or whatever it is. thats all i have to work with any other anti estrogens and coming off drugs i need, has to be a legal suplement. I also am Taking Cell Tech, Nitro Tech, Glutomine, multi-vitamins. Any HELP OR SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREAT THANX

Post your stats (age, experience, weight).

Read around this site.

You are NOT going to want to run test and use OTC anti-e's.

DO NOT START YOUR CYCLE UNTIL YOU HAVE EVERYTHING INCLUDING ANTI-E.

You are not ready to start, so you have time to read and post your stats.


There is a good start for both advice and suggestions.

[turboneon95]

Post your stats (age, experience, weight).

Read around this site.

You are NOT going to want to run test and use OTC anti-e's.

DO NOT START YOUR CYCLE UNTIL YOU HAVE EVERYTHING INCLUDING ANTI-E.

You are not ready to start, so you have time to read and post your stats.


There is a good start for both advice and suggestions.

Unfortunately i already started it was free so i could resist, i am 21, 5"11, 190lbs, Working out for about a year with a 5 day routine. Chest,Legs,Back,Bi-Tris,and Shoulder-traps. tommorow will be my 3rd week, and my 3rd test enth shot. i am basically a begginer in all aspects of lifting weights so i wanted to keep the doses to a minimun. If anyone wants to shoot out some good cycle info it would really help. i have been sticking to the Novice cycle from the site but i have been using 6-oxo instead the the nova because i am worried about ordering that ****. So i have been taking 250 of test enth every sunday and 4 5mg Dbol Everyday, every couple of hours.

[bignatt]

Order nolva off the AR-R site its completley legal you need nolva 6oxo is no comparison

[turboneon95]

Order nolva off the AR-R site its completley legal you need nolva 6oxo is no comparison

i was looking around on their i dont see any nolva???. but i dont need clomid right??? i can just use the hcg 's i have for post cycle?

[Jackman]

i was looking around on their i dont see any nolva???. but i dont need clomid right??? i can just use the hcg's i have for post cycle?

of course you need clomid

[bignatt]

http://anabolicreview-research.com/s...products_id=43 thats the direct link to the nolva get clomid as well

[Billy_Bathgate]

lol hows the nitro tech


try researching on your own before telling members to give you info.

goto the educational forum and read.

[Angelis]

you dont need the HCG unless ur running a very long cycle u need Nolva and Clomid... Nolva bcs it is an anti-estrogen ( you could use it 10-20mg through ur entire cycle *or* 20mg for 3 weeks after cycle ) u need clomid to restore your HPTA levels specifically the test ( 300mg for the first day / 100mg for the next 13 days / 50mg for an additional 7: toalling 3 weeks )

And about ur Test run it atleast 400mg or all ur doing is getting rid of ur natural test and replacing it with synthetic... so theres not real point to it unless u run it higher!

[turboneon95]

you dont need the HCG unless ur running a very long cycle u need Nolva and Clomid... Nolva bcs it is an anti-estrogen ( you could use it 10-20mg through ur entire cycle *or* 20mg for 3 weeks after cycle ) u need clomid to restore your HPTA levels specifically the test ( 300mg for the first day / 100mg for the next 13 days / 50mg for an additional 7: toalling 3 weeks )

And about ur Test run it atleast 400mg or all ur doing is getting rid of ur natural test and replacing it with synthetic... so theres not real point to it unless u run it higher!

This is a thread from BigNat. So i dont know which one of u to believe hehe he is saying clomid is over rated basically.

read this its on hcg
The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body’s natural production of testosterone . Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.



Testicular Desensitization


Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.


Post-Cycle LH Levels


Post Cycle Testosterone Levels



Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.



The Role of Anti-estrogens


It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.



HCG


So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin , is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.



Finalizing the Program


An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.



Sample Post-cycle Plan:


Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily



In Closing


I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn’t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.


References:

1. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men. J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84

2. Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidogenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1981 Oct;78(10):6309-13

3. Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig Cells by Human Chorionic Gonadotropin In-vitro. PrBy William Llewellyn

[Chemical King]

DUDE, before even considering any of this sh*t u should have done some research on this site. Type PCT into the search bar and read and learn. But since you hav already started I would reccomend nolvex because if you dont do a good PCT you will without a doubt get gyno (bitch tits and all that stuff) I would seriously advise you to read the info on this site and learn from it cos I was in your position once

[turboneon95]

http://anabolicreview-research.com/s...products_id=43 thats the direct link to the nolva get clomid as well

BigNat When it says Tamox 50 ML 20mg/ml. Does that mean 50 does of 20mg/ml or is it only 20mg/ml for 45 bucks?

[AandF6969]

BigNat When it says Tamox 50 ML 20mg/ml. Does that mean 50 does of 20mg/ml or is it only 20mg/ml for 45 bucks?

That means that theres a total of 50x20 mg of Tamoxifen in there which is 1000 mg total. So if youre taking 10mg ED thats 100 doses, if youre taking 20 mg ED thats 50 doses.

Also, HOW DOES YOUR DIET LOOK??? Post up what you eat every day... you do realize that is the most important aspect of bulking, even more than training IMO...

[turboneon95]

That means that theres a total of 50x20 mg of Tamoxifen in there which is 1000 mg total. So if youre taking 10mg ED thats 100 doses, if youre taking 20 mg ED thats 50 doses.

Also, HOW DOES YOUR DIET LOOK??? Post up what you eat every day... you do realize that is the most important aspect of bulking, even more than training IMO...

I wake up at 7:30am and eat a bagel or 2 with peanut butter on them and a Meal Replacement shake for breakfast. then i have a protein shake 2 hours later then i eat lunch 2 hours after that. then i have another protein shake before the gym at about 5:30pm then i come home from the gym around 7:00pm And Drink My celltech and then dinner and another protein shake. dinner usually consists of a nice steak and a big serving of rice and some galic bread. lunch is usually plain Burgers or plain chicken breasts

[AandF6969]

So... how many total calories/protein/carbs/fats is that?

[Son Of Khadafi]

Take test, maybe add deca . Dbol isnt a good idea

[bignatt]

Dude i personally am still not set on hcg or clomid or nolva its still up in the air to me for which one to use but i lean towards nolva and clomid