HCG necessary for PCT??

**seriouslifter** · 02-08-2005, 08:58 AM

Is it only a must for longer cycles like 16+ weeks? Nolv is no problem for pct, but HCG isnt available right now. Will Nolv be fine during cycle and for pct recover? I will be doing tren , test prop and winny for 10 wks. People said tren shuts you down hard, will nolv be just fine for PCT? I really want to go ahead and start soon. I did hcg last cycle for sust and deca , I dont know if it really made a difference.

***G-1000*** · 02-08-2005, 09:01 AM

how long are you going to run the tren

**seriouslifter** · 02-08-2005, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by gsxxr

how long are you going to run the tren

I am running everything 10 weeks. The prop/tren is mixed. I cant run tren 2 weeks shorter than the prop.

**nateeku** · 02-08-2005, 09:17 AM

make sure you use clomid as well for your pct.

***G-1000*** · 02-08-2005, 09:33 AM

if you run the test for 10 and the tren for 8 you should not need hcg . you are going to wont to run nolv 10mg day 1-pct and also 1-8 b-6 for the tren. that is almost the same cycle im on now but im going var at the end.

***G-1000*** · 02-08-2005, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by nateeku

make sure you use clomid as well for your pct.

clomid is a must for pct

**Whitey** · 02-08-2005, 09:39 AM

Yeah, bro - you didn't mention anything about clomid - that's what's going to get your test levels up after your cycle. Nolva blocks estrogen at receptor sites. If you want to do something for your boys ON cycle and can't get HCG , you can run some tribulus.

**spywizard** · 02-08-2005, 09:41 AM

you run HCG during the cycle.. not during pct..

run clomid and nolva during pct

**znak** · 02-08-2005, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by spywizard

you run HCG during the cycle.. not during pct..

Why? I use it during pct to get the boys up and running again, per my doctor's instructions for TRT.

**seriouslifter** · 02-08-2005, 09:46 AM

I know hcg is ran during cycle up until pct. HCG is out of question. Nolv is the same thing as clomid, but better. People have different opinions. I am going to run nolv 10mg ed throughout cycle. For pct, why would I need clomid? Clomid is actually worse for pct than nolv. I have read some articles on nolv vs clomid.

**seriouslifter** · 02-08-2005, 09:47 AM

Also about the boys being brought back. I dont care if they are small, I thought if you bring your boys back quicker, that you recover test levels better and you keep most of your gains too. I know the boys come back eventually when your off cycle.

**spywizard** · 02-08-2005, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by znak

Why? I use it during pct to get the boys up and running again, per my doctor's instructions for TRT.

thats what my brother's doc says too.. but he never comes of HRT...

hcg is in conflict with what you are trying to do during pct, you want to bring the "boys" back to production..

HRT only activates them..

others can explain better.. find thread on axis

in a 16 week cycle.. typical administration is 500-1000iu 2 days a week.. and it is prefered to increase the # of injections rather than increasing the dosage.. starting at week 6.. or dependant on shrinkage...

the idea is preventative actions are better than corrective actions..

**spywizard** · 02-08-2005, 09:52 AM

This is Dr. John's(Swale) PCT protocal.

Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

**Whitey** · 02-08-2005, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by seriouslifter

I know hcg is ran during cycle up until pct. HCG is out of question. Nolv is the same thing as clomid, but better. People have different opinions. I am going to run nolv 10mg ed throughout cycle. For pct, why would I need clomid? Clomid is actually worse for pct than nolv. I have read some articles on nolv vs clomid.

Yes, I have heard something to that effect as well, but you should read some more articles on nolva vs. clomid. Some of that information is dated.

**seriouslifter** · 02-08-2005, 10:43 AM

So is nolv fine for pct? I am running it throughout cycle also.

**yikes!!** · 02-08-2005, 11:17 AM

I use the HCG during cycle 500iu's every week and then 2500iu's every five days ending a week before clomid/nolva/pct....and my boys are always fired up

**Whitey** · 02-08-2005, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by seriouslifter

So is nolv fine for pct? I am running it throughout cycle also.

Yes, it's fine - as long as you run it with clomid.

**seriouslifter** · 02-09-2005, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Whitey

Yes, it's fine - as long as you run it with clomid.

So now i have to get some clomid? I have nolv, why isnt that just fine? There are so many different points from people, I dont know who to go with.

**Swifto** · 02-09-2005, 12:46 PM

clomid starts ur naural test production after the cycle is over, this is done to maximise the chances of gains being kept after the discontinuence of the cycle, trust me take clomid! nolva is used to block estrogen whilst on cycle and reduce sides, it is also used during PCT to do the same thing, as estrogen is still around during PCT

**Whitey** · 02-09-2005, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by seriouslifter

So now i have to get some clomid? I have nolv, why isnt that just fine? There are so many different points from people, I dont know who to go with.

Hey man, you don't have to do anything. We already told you why nolva isn't enough and you need clomid. Who is telling you differently?

**seriouslifter** · 02-10-2005, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Whitey

Hey man, you don't have to do anything. We already told you why nolva isn't enough and you need clomid. Who is telling you differently?

So what is pct dosage. I know nolv is 40mg 10 days, 20mg 10 days and 10mg 10days. I like to do that. Is clomid 300mg for 2 weeks, then 150 for 1 week and then 100 for 1week or something? Im little confused

**Whitey** · 02-10-2005, 11:34 AM

For clomid, one popular method is
300g/day 1
100g/day 2-11
50g/day12-30

Alternatively, Pheedno's method:
PCT for cycles 8-16wks long:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

**BUYLONGTERM** · 02-10-2005, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by spywizard

you run HCG during the cycle.. not during pct..

run clomid and nolva during pct

This is the correct info. You do NOT run HCG for PCT. Clomid is a must for PCT. Nolva alone won't cut it.

from "mudman"

HCG will mimic high levels of LH levels........... this is what will help your testicals come back from an atrophy state. You would want to use this either durring your cycle or near the end of the cycle and leave a week without HCG before PCT starts. Never use it durring PCT. Because it mimics LH it will not allow clomid to help raise those levels to help recover you.

**Thrower74** · 02-10-2005, 11:43 AM

HCG the last three weeks of a cycle will help. I have done well using clomid only for my PCT in the past. You can get by without HCG IMO. Clomid is a must and nolva will help to. A good PCT would be 20mg/day of nolva + 100mg/day of clomid for 4 weeks.

**Starkraven** · 02-10-2005, 01:11 PM

isnt it odd how EVERYONE has a different opinion?? it drives people ****in nuts. pheedno uses l-dex post cycle, swale says no. pheedno uses clomid/nolva pct, swale uses nolva OR clomid. i just dont get it.

**Thrower74** · 02-10-2005, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Starkraven

isnt it odd how EVERYONE has a different opinion?? it drives people ****in nuts. pheedno uses l-dex post cycle, swale says no. pheedno uses clomid/nolva pct, swale uses nolva OR clomid. i just dont get it.

I think it all comes down to the fact that there is more than one way to skin a cat. LOL.