Just read something from another site and seeking other opinions

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 12:55 AM

Hey guys, was doing some researching and found post on another site:

Hulk, just a quick comment on your cycle idea... 10 weeks on the deca isn't bad, but I'd toss in some test or something androgenic as well. Alot of guys have problems with "deca dick" if they don't stack it with some test or something. Anything nor-testosterone based can affect erectile function. For some, it doesn't even happen until weeks after the cycle has ended... and may last for a period of months. I guess for some that's not a problem... but personally, that would just freak me out and I know my woman would be pretty ****ed too. The d-bol would be quite sufficient as it's quite androgenic, but you're not going to want to run that for more than 6 weeks, and it's out of your system pretty quickly. If you stack the deca with some enanthate or something with a similar halflife then you're good to go.

He's saying that dbol would be good to use in a way that test is usually recommended to be used on this site to prevent deca dick and libido loss. Dbol is very androgenic so what makes its purpose in a cycle different than let's say propionate ? Could someone use dbol instead of test in a deca or eq cycle? I know the answer I'm gonna get but can someone tell me what the difference is b/c technically it does seem to make sense. Thanks fellas

**wolfyEVH** · 08-30-2005, 01:02 AM

because dbol is NOT testosterone bro. what doesnt make any sense?

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 01:17 AM

Maybe it's just the fact that I'm fighting to stay awake right now but waiting for my clothes to dry but I have to keep checking on them so they dont shrink! It seems pretty basic, but dbol is androgenic so having an androgen with an anabolic like deca should technically keep that balance, no? Cause if you think about it testosterone still shuts you down, so what would be the major difference?

**Two4the$$** · 08-30-2005, 01:20 AM

Simple. DBol is not test. When you take Deca , it suppresses your endogenous testosterone , not your endogenous DBOL! Pshhh... How many mg of DBol does your body produce naturally?

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 01:25 AM

Okay, you're not understanding my question. And trust me, I know what you're saying very well. Just think about for a second. Injecting testosterone also shuts down your endogenous testosterone production, right? So either way your body won't have any natural test flowing, or very little. The reason we inject test is to prevent our libido from dying down and to prevent our cock from becoming useless, BUT, adding an androgenic compound like dbol would also prevent those two things. See what I'm sayin now? The only thing dbol probably would not prevent is your nuts from shrinking (temporarily of course).

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 01:30 AM

Just for the record, this is more of an informational debate rather than a serious question. I'm just trying to explore all the possibilities and other people's perspectives on these things so don't get impatient or condescending. We're cool fellas, come on!

**Two4the$$** · 08-30-2005, 01:33 AM

Well, I personally do not believe it is androgenic alone that causes libido, and for the body's purposes, endo vs exogenous test will have roughly an equivalent affect. Anyway, there are a lot of fundamentally flawed assumptions youre operating off of. Just continue reading. You'll get the feel of things eventually. For instance, test doesn't keep your nuts from shrinking. And if that's not what you meant, you certainly made it seem like that's what you meant. Anyway, although DBol bonds to the androgen receptor, that isn't the same as testosterone for libido. But I'm not digging up research docs right now. You're debating something to find out the technical reason, but for practical purposes, what I am saying should suffice. I have never even heard of Diana increasing your libido.

**Maetenloch** · 08-30-2005, 01:38 AM

The deca will shutdown your own natural testosterone production, so your body will be essentially test free after a couple of weeks. Adding dbol may help since it will activate some of the adrogen receptors (and so will appear like test to the body), but nothing maintains your sexual functioning like testosterone.

**ODC0717** · 08-30-2005, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by Jsik98

Just for the record, this is more of an informational debate rather than a serious question. I'm just trying to explore all the possibilities and other people's perspectives on these things so don't get impatient or condescending. We're cool fellas, come on!

For the record I've never taken deca , but here's my view on the matter...
Deca releases progestin, a sort of "super" estrogen if you will, that is the reason for the "deca dick". If you do not take an injectable test and decide to go with dbol , for example. Eventhough it is very androgentic, unless you're taking 75mg ed, for say, a 12 week cycle. Your weekly dosage of dbol will more then likely be considerably less then that of your deca. This leads me to believe that you would, one way or another suffer deca dick if you ran dbol instead of taking an injectable test. Enanthate or cyp would be ideal because of the longer esters and less frequent pokes. I like prop because I bloat on both enth and cyp...I also like the ed shots...

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by TrumanHW

But I'm not digging up research docs right now. You're debating something to find out the technical reason, but for practical purposes, what I am saying should suffice.

If you have the docs It would def be cool if you could post them when you get a cance. I wouldn't expect you to go searching the net now to find a specific answer to my question! That's why I posted it here to see if anyone happened to have recently done some research or maybe was just very knowledgable about physiology and different anabolic /androgenic compounds.
I personally haven't taken dbol so I don't know if it increases libido or not, but I'd think it does b/c of its androgenic properties.

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Maetenloch

The deca will shutdown your own natural testosterone production, so your body will be essentially test free after a couple of weeks. Adding dbol may help since it will activate some of the adrogen receptors (and so will appear like test to the body), but nothing maintains your sexual functioning like testosterone.

That makes sense. It is an interesting topic though isn't it? I thought I had it all figured out until I read this dudes post and couldn't truly answer the question I had about it!

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 07:03 AM

Anyone else have any thoughts?

**Two4the$$** · 08-30-2005, 01:45 PM

No dude, this is seriously some pointless pontification. You need to focus more on tried and true measures. Be done with this nonsense.

**Property of Steroid.com** · 08-30-2005, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by TrumanHW

Anyway, although DBol bonds to the androgen receptor, that isn't the same as testosterone for libido. But I'm not digging up research docs right now. You're debating something to find out the technical reason, but for practical purposes, what I am saying should suffice. I have never even heard of Diana increasing your libido.

Actually, it barely binds to the AR, THW....it's a very weak binder to the AR, in other words(1). So yeah, despite being an androgen, it's got a low(ish) androgenic rating, and it isn't going to be really hot for increasing libido, I think. It works for some, however...

Anyway...

In light of this weak receptor binding, Dianabol 's actions have long been suspected to have alot to do with non-receptor mediated action (since it barely binds to the AR, yet has a pronounced anabolic effect). This may be explained by a study in rats who have had their pituitary glands removed, dianabol exhibited no anabolic activity(2), which tells us that Dbol probably exerts most of it's anabolic effects via GH-induced mechanisms. This is also why people (Drummerboy, HE-MAN, etc...) say that Dbol soothes their joints, I suspect. But GH doesn't do alot (anecdotally, at least) for libido in normal males.

References:
1.Relative binding affinity of anabolic-androgenic steroids : comparison of the binding to the androgen receptors in skeletal muscle and in prostate, as well as to sex hormone-binding globulin.
Endocrinology. 1984 Jun;114(6):2100-6.
2The role of growth hormone in the anabolic action of methandrostenolone .
Endocrinology. 1972 May;90(5):1396-8.

**956Vette** · 08-30-2005, 03:01 PM

and Dr. Hooker has spoken

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by TrumanHW

No dude, this is seriously some pointless pontification. You need to focus more on tried and true measures. Be done with this nonsense.

LOL!! Who the hell are you!!??? Please , if you don't have any thoughts then just move on to the next thread, but please don't tell me what I need to do. I don't want to turn this into a "flaming" thread either so please don't respond with insults and what not. If I want to explore the "petty" details of dbol then I have every right to. Thank you in advance for being mature.

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by hooker

Actually, it barely binds to the AR, THW....it's a very weak binder to the AR, in other words(1). So yeah, despite being an androgen, it's got a low(ish) androgenic rating, and it isn't going to be really hot for increasing libido, I think. It works for some, however...

Anyway...

In light of this weak receptor binding, Dianabol's actions have long been suspected to have alot to do with non-receptor mediated action (since it barely binds to the AR, yet has a pronounced anabolic effect). This may be explained by a study in rats who have had their pituitary glands removed, dianabol exhibited no anabolic activity(2), which tells us that Dbol probably exerts most of it's anabolic effects via GH-induced mechanisms. This is also why people (Drummerboy, HE-MAN, etc...) say that Dbol soothes their joints, I suspect. But GH doesn't do alot (anecdotally, at least) for libido in normal males.

I thought dbol was very androgenic, and that's why it produces estrogens so easily when in contact with aromatase.

Is there a connection between the androgenic rating of a drug and it's ability to aromatise?

Just so you know I'm not challenging your knowledge b/c I've learned a hell of a lot from you and respect your work on this site, I'm just asking the questions that will give me a better understanding of this intricate and complicated subject. I guess any time we're dealing with chemistry or bio-chemistry and physiology it's like opening Pandora's box, b/c every time one finds an answer to a question it brings up ten more questions!
Would you say dbol aromatises easier than test?

I copied this from Steroid .com's dianobol profile. Check it out:

Steroid nov-ices do not need more than 15-20 mg of Dianabol per day since this dose is sufficient to achieve exceptional results over a period of 8-10 weeks. When the effect begins to slow down in this group after about eight weeks and the athlete wants to continue his treatment, the dosage of Dianabol should not be increased but an injectable steroid such as Deca-Durabolin in a dosage of 200 mg/week or Primobolan in a dosage of 200 mg/week should be used in addition to the Dianabol dose; or he may switch to one of the two above-mentioned compounds. The use of testosterone is not recommended at this stage as the athlete should leave some free play for later. For those either impatient or more advanced, a stack of Dianabol 20-30 mg/day and Deca-Durabolin 200-400 mg/day achieves miracles.
Red: This surprised me as the writer is suggesting adding a hormone other than test to continue the cycle even though dbol shuts you down pretty hard, and then deca or primo would just add to that shut down which we all know what would happen to the poor guy who were to try that cycle. I'm guessing the writer is suggesting adding an anabolic hormone with a low androgenic rating b/c dbol has a high androgenic rating and one shouldn't use two highly androgenic hormones together. So, according to this one would think dbol is being used like test would be used, as the androgen in the cycle.

Orange: I don't know if he means save the test for free play later in the cycle or in a future cycle. Either way, I'm bewildered by why it isn't recommended to use the test with the dbol b/c of how dbol shuts down endogenous test production.

Green: According to this we don't even need test in a cycle as long as dbol is in there. That's the reason I started this thread in the first place, b/c it seems like dbol is being used in place of test b/c (I'm assuming) its androgenic rating.

You're the go-to guy on this board Hooker, what do you make of all this?

**Property of Steroid.com** · 08-30-2005, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Jsik98

I thought dbol was very androgenic , and that's why it produces estrogens so easily when in contact with aromatase.

No, not at all. Dbol isn't highly androgenic...nor does it aromatize easily, due to a c1-2 double bond (the same one that Eq has, and Eq barely aromatizes at all!). Unfortunately, Dbol aromatizes silghtly, but to a reasonably potent estrogen.

Is there a connection between the androgenic rating of a drug and it's ability to aromatise?

Aromatization doesn't necessarily have to do with androgenic rating. Tren has an androgenic rating of 500 and can't aromatize at all due to a c9-10 bond (don't quote me on that one, but I think it can't be metabolically removed, either) ...while halotestin has an 1b-hydroxyl bond...both seem (to me, anyway) to be inhibiting a-ring action by taking up "space" necessary for aromatization to take place(you'd kinda see what I meant if you had a picture of their steran nucleus in front of you)...i.e. both of those alterations seem to be screwing with a bond (or position perhaps?) necessary to allow a-ring aromatization. Anabolic rating, however, and aromatization can be said to be somewhat more closely correlated, it would seem.

Would you say dbol aromatises easier than test?

...So you can't really compare it to test, because they aromatize to estrogens of different potency....

Originally Posted by Jsik98

I copied this from Steroid .com's dianobol profile. Check it out:

Steroid nov-ices do not need more than 15-20 mg of Dianabol per day since this dose is sufficient to achieve exceptional results over a period of 8-10 weeks. When the effect begins to slow down in this group after about eight weeks and the athlete wants to continue his treatment, the dosage of Dianabol should not be increased but an injectable steroid such as Deca-Durabolin in a dosage of 200 mg/week or Primobolan in a dosage of 200 mg/week should be used in addition to the Dianabol dose; or he may switch to one of the two above-mentioned compounds. The use of testosterone is not recommended at this stage as the athlete should leave some free play for later. For those either impatient or more advanced, a stack of Dianabol 20-30 mg/day and Deca-Durabolin 200-400 mg/day achieves miracles.
Red: This surprised me as the writer is suggesting adding a hormone other than test to continue the cycle even though dbol shuts you down pretty hard, and then deca or primo would just add to that shut down which we all know what would happen to the poor guy who were to try that cycle. I'm guessing the writer is suggesting adding an anabolic hormone with a low androgenic rating b/c dbol has a high androgenic rating and one shouldn't use two highly androgenic hormones together. So, according to this one would think dbol is being used like test would be used, as the androgen in the cycle.

Orange: I don't know if he means save the test for free play later in the cycle or in a future cycle. Either way, I'm bewildered by why it isn't recommended to use the test with the dbol b/c of how dbol shuts down endogenous test production.

Green: According to this we don't even need test in a cycle as long as dbol is in there. That's the reason I started this thread in the first place, b/c it seems like dbol is being used in place of test b/c (I'm assuming) its androgenic rating.

You're the go-to guy on this board Hooker, what do you make of all this?

Red: The writer is simply wrong in his logic, if it is indeed what you suggest it is. Honestly, he is so patently incorrect (the writer) in his assumptions, I can't even begin to figure out where he gets his logic or information. If I had to guess, I would assume he uses Tarot Cards or a Ouija Board. In addition, Dbol has a low, not high, androgenic rating.

Orange: I'm as bewildered as you. I can't imagine the logic of this reccomendation either. Suffice to say it's wrong.

Green: Maybe ...but Dbol is roughly half as androgenic as testosterone ...so why would it be suggested for use as a replacement androgenic compound?

MY dbol profile:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=165456

**Jsik98** · 08-30-2005, 10:16 PM

Isn't steroid .com affiliated with this site? That's probably cause for so many posts from people who seemingly haven't researched anything, when in reality they're comin' on over from AR's sister site with wrong info! You guys should see if it's possible to have whoever's responsible for that info to change it! Thanks for the info Hooker! If you have a moment, see what you could do about that! It'll save the mods and vets a lot of time I'm sure.

**Two4the$$** · 08-31-2005, 02:51 AM

Jsik98, I've asked the same thing. I have to assume they're eventually going to transition some of the forums profiles to the main page. Seems to be taking a while, I'm sure there are reasons for it. It most certainly has been brought up enough times for them to be aware, and you and I agree on that.

I understand why you reacted to me. I'm not trying to stifle you. I respect that you are curious about this. But, if you will indulge me, what's your motive? What do you perceive the benefit of this line of questioning to be? Random studying? Or is there a gain you believe getting an answer you want will produce? Because personally, unless you have an aversion to test, it's a perfectly good solution. If you are concerned with test side affects, do little more the HRT doses and use whatever other things you want. But when taking something suppressive during a cycle, I can hardly see reasons to not take exogenous amounts equivalent to your body's natural production. So? What then is the question intention?

Hook, sorry about leaving the crumbs of misinformation for you to fix. How've you been? I haven't been on the boards much, and might not be for a while. I'm originally from New Orleans and have family coming in to town, and I might be shipping off to there to help restore things. Hope you're well man. In case you talk to WW, no sign of a refund yet. But no sweat on that, truthfully I'm hoping something changes his mind. lol.

**Jsik98** · 09-12-2005, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by TrumanHW

I understand why you reacted to me. I'm not trying to stifle you. I respect that you are curious about this. But, if you will indulge me, what's your motive? What do you perceive the benefit of this line of questioning to be? Random studying? Or is there a gain you believe getting an answer you want will produce?

I would be glad to indulge you my friend. Honestly, there are SO many contraindictions out there on this subject that it gets very confusing really knowing the deal! You get to a point where you know what you need to know. Things like PCT, test should be in every cycle, what to stack, what not to stack, doses, injection frequency, proper anti-e treatment, all sorts of different info we pick up after researching for a while. However, many times I see info circulating (kind of like it must've been for you w/ this thread) and just 1 detail changes from the last time you looked at a similar thread, which now makes you a bit more educated! So, as was in this case, I was reading and the dude was giving the SAME advice you see time and again........."you should throw some test into that cycle to prevent libido loss and deca dick blahze blahze"....but this time he threw in the detail about using dbol to counter act those sides , and I decided to entertain that idea. The person souned relatively educated in this subject so I wondered why he would tell his buddy that. Then, I even found that same advice on steroid .com!! That I couldn't believe! No wonder so many people come onto the boards with crazy ass ideas! You know how everyone would react if some kid came on the board and layed out that cycle (the one I pasted from steroid.com).. you guessed it!!
"You need to do more research."
"Dude, haven't you researched anything? That's a pointless cycle."
"Test needs to be the base in every cycle."
"Run that cycle and have fun getting captain winky to work!"
Shit like that..........so it just goes to show how info gets passed around like a $2 whore, and gets infected with crazy shit along the way!

I have NO problem using test. As a matter of fact, I'm a big fan of test. However, if it were common practice for BB's to use dbol on top of deca for beneficial stacking reasons, it would contraindict a lot of what I have learned. So, essentially, I was clearing up any uncertainties that that info brought up as I wasn't quite sure if one actually could run dbol with deca and have it prevent deca dick as was stated.