*How Deca KILLED Test: The MYTH of TESTOSTERONE Necessity!*

[Liftnainez]

you see! good can come out of this.. speaking normally and calmly while sharing views and opinions is what everybody is here for.. both sides make valid points..

[cb25]

Well said.




[R]

thanks Ross...i really don't mean to come across as a dick. i'm just unconvinced as of yet to your arguments, and I truly believe there's a more effective way to get it across if you truly believe what you preach (and i think that you do).

and i truly believe in the testosterone as a safe compound to be cycled, especially when used effectively, in lower, adequate and appropriate doses.

[stayinstacked]

Maybe the reason the guy keeps coming back is because in all actuality he is trying to help people and feels strong enough about his point to do so. Look at how many members on this board come and go, these impulsive "I wanna be big today, tomorrow **** it" types. I say we need the guys who stick around, the ones who are in this game for tha long haul. I saw the guys pics, he's not a monster or anything, but he's got a good physique thats better than most pics on here I've seen so far. Give him another chance guys, lets let all this "uh oh its Ross again" bullshit go. Listen to what he has to say, then rather than bash him right off the bat take it into consideration, or post YOUR EVIDENCE to prove your point. And why does everybody always need scientific evidence to prove their claims anyways? What ever happened to explaining whats worked for you and what hasnt.

[cb25]

. And why does everybody always need scientific evidence to prove their claims anyways? What ever happened to explaining whats worked for you and what hasnt.

I can appreciate your point. But i'm not one to take chances with the things i put in my body. And we have NO IDEA who most of the people are on this board. Anyone can come on this board and say they've done ANYTHING and gotten results, etc.

I put my faith in scientific evidence, because it's more credible than posts made by someone I don't know, on an anabolic steroid board. I'm not saying the people here aren't genuine, or don't know their stuff...but I am saying that i don't know 99% of them.

and seriously, look up the work of Dr. Bhasin in the New England Journal of Medicine. He's done work that shows the safety of testosterone enanthante up to 600mg/wk for 20 weeks in healthy young men.

If there's a way to post a pdf file, please inform me and i'll do so. But i'd be happy to email the files to anyone who's interested.

[stayinstacked]

I can appreciate your point. But i'm not one to take chances with the things i put in my body. And we have NO IDEA who most of the people are on this board. Anyone can come on this board and say they've done ANYTHING and gotten results, etc.

I put my faith in scientific evidence, because it's more credible than posts made by someone I don't know, on an anabolic steroid board. I'm not saying the people here aren't genuine, or don't know their stuff...but I am saying that i don't know 99% of them.

and seriously, look up the work of Dr. Bhasin in the New England Journal of Medicine. He's done work that shows the safety of testosterone enanthante up to 600mg/wk for 20 weeks in healthy young men.

If there's a way to post a pdf file, please inform me and i'll do so. But i'd be happy to email the files to anyone who's interested.

Yeah, I see where your coming from, but then again, most doctors got their knowledge from research too, and most dont exercise. But I'm def interested in that read you mentioned on testosterone, I'll have to check it out

[Merc..]

Post your new pic ross before you get booted again. Like to see them...

[cb25]

Yeah, I see where your coming from, but then again, most doctors got their knowledge from research too, and most dont exercise. But I'm def interested in that read you mentioned on testosterone, I'll have to check it out

true, but many doctors don't practice what they preach --

not to mention the fact that MOST doctors have no idea about testosterone . the work by Dr. Bhasin, while amazingly solid, and well-published, is gone un-noticed and un-taught. (it's all relatively recent research as well).

stayinstacked, if you want, i've got a couple of his studies on PDF -- if you want me to email them, just shoot me a PM with an email addy to send to, i'd be happy to provide them (that goes for anyone who wants them)

[ultimate_beef]

I want to hear from this Ross. Where do you get all this info from. Thats what makes me wonder. You have good info, but it seems a little far fetched. So many ppl dont agree with you because they have all gone through cycle after cycle knowing what happens. And all come to conclusion about needing to take a test with deca because of the sides. What backs your opinion over 100 of others.

[chest6]

ross always stirring things up..

[wolfyEVH]

BACK to the TOPIC....


DECA began this MYTH. EQ, Primo, Turinabol ....these mild anabolics WILL NOT AFFECT YOUR LIBIDO.

Just in case--add PROVIRON .



[R]

so if they wont affect your libido, why do you say "just in case--add PROVIRON" haha..you kill me ross.....

by the way....when are those leg pics coming?!?!

[stayinstacked]

I want to hear from this Ross. Where do you get all this info from. Thats what makes me wonder. You have good info, but it seems a little far fetched. So many ppl dont agree with you because they have all gone through cycle after cycle knowing what happens. And all come to conclusion about needing to take a test with deca because of the sides. What backs your opinion over 100 of others.

No, so many people dont agree with him b/ they have only done one or two cycles before or have never done a no test cycle and just dont know any better. There is nothing farfetched about his info at all bro. And he hasnt ever come out and said that test is bad either, he simply states that you dont have to have it in every cycle. The cycles he listed that I saw looked like great cycles, and exactly the type of compounds where test wasnt needed. Now if he was listing shit like 100 mg Anadrol 50/day w/ 75mg tren /day then we'd have a reason to worry.

[chest6]

No, so many people dont agree with him b/ they have only done one or two cycles before or have never done a no test cycle and just dont know any better. There is nothing farfetched about his info at all bro. And he hasnt ever come out and said that test is bad either, he simply states that you dont have to have it in every cycle. The cycles he listed that I saw looked like great cycles, and exactly the type of compounds where test wasnt needed. Now if he was listing shit like 100 mg Anadrol 50/day w/ 75mg tren/day then we'd have a reason to worry.

I asked him what he would do if he ever ran anything 19-Nor and he said he would stay away from it..but later I heard he said he would run Tren by itself in the future

[cb25]

stacked -- if you're notice in another thread, he stated that advising anyone to take ANY dose of TEST was "dangerous" i believe his exact words to me were "why would you say that? stop being dangerous." so Ross DID in fact say that test shouldn't be used.

and while i haven't been able to find the study that i wanted, here's an article describing similar work by Dr. Bhasin.

Testosterone
Real-World Data
by Tim Ziegenfuss with commentary by Chemical Evolution


If you've so much as picked up a newspaper in the last couple of weeks, or even a Time, Newsweek, Sports Illustrated, People, or friggin' Weekly Reader, you've no doubt been force fed yet another article about the horrors of steroids . Yep, steroids are no doubt what the terrorists are planning on dropping into our drinking water, thus creating a horrible epidemic of exploding livers and diminutive testicles that drop out of our pants like tiny popcorn kernels left over from last night's viewing of "The Secret Ya-Ya Sisterhood."

Thankfully, there's some real world research going on about steroid hormones (not much, mind you, but some). Recently, researachers Shalender Bhasin, Linda Woodhouse, Richard Casaburi et al. (of Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Harbor-University of California Los Angeles Medical Center, Washington University School of Medicine) did a pretty tidy little study on our beloved Testosterone (in this case, the hormone, not the magazine).

The title of the study is, "Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men." As you might guess, they didn't study any 300 lb ripped-to-the-bone bodybuilders claiming to be drug free (yeah right). Instead, they focused on "normal" men and their responses to graded doses of this macho hormone.


Subjects

The subjects in this study consisted of 61 healthy men between the ages of 18-35 years. All had prior weightlifting experience, normal Testosterone levels , and hadn't used any anabolic agents in the preceding year. All received monthly injections of a long-acting GnRH agonist to suppress endogenous Testosterone production (now that's gotta hurt). Depending on which group they were randomized to, subjects received one of five different weekly doses of Testosterone enanthate for five months (note: there were no significant differences between groups for any variable at the start of the study).

Remember, these are the test subject's values at the time the study began.

Group
Dose
Body weight (kg)
Age (yr)
FFM (kg)
Basal T (ng/dL)
Leg press strength (kg)

1
25 mg
68.0
28
59.1
593
355.5

2
50 mg
77.0
29
65.1
566
407.8

3
125 mg
78.9
28
66.0
553
419.2

4
300 mg
78.4
24
67.3
654
439.8

5
600 mg
74.8
25
64.2
632
431.6



Diet Control

Two weeks before their first intramuscular injection, subjects began following a standardized diet consisting of 36 kcal/kg body weight per day (16.4 kcals/lb) and 1.2 grams protein per kilogram body weight per day (0.55 grams/lb). To put these values in perspective, a 176-pound male would have to ingest 2880 kcals/day and 96 grams of protein/day. To make sure subjects didn't change their dietary habits during the study, they were asked to complete 3-day food records and 24-hr food recalls every four weeks.


Activity Control

Here's the only part of the study that surprised me, at least initially — subjects were asked NOT to perform any type of strength training or endurance exercise during the entire study. This was done to avoid the potentially confounding influence that intense physical activity might have on the dependent variables. The more I thought about it, teasing out the effects that exercise might have on responses to Testosterone would have required an additional five groups (of men that did strength train). And as anyone who's done a research study will tell you, getting a sample size of 61 men is hard enough, but 120 men for a 20-week study? Yet another clear example of how time and monetary constraints influence research design.


Outcome (dependent) Variables

To underscore the comprehensive nature of this study, take a look at this list of outcome variables:

• Fat-free mass (via underwater weighing and DEXA)

• Fat mass (via underwater weighing and DEXA)

• Thigh muscle volume (via MRI)

• Quadriceps muscle volume (via MRI)

• Total body water (via deuterium dilution)

• Leg press strength (via 1-rep max)

• Sexual function and desire (via daily logs)

• Spatial cognition (via checkerboard test)

• Mood (via Hamilton depression and Young manic scales)

• Blood counts and clinical chemistries (too many analytes to list)

• Prostate specific antigen (PSA)

• Total cholesterol and various subfractions

• Total and free Tstosterone

• Luteinizing hormone (LH)

• Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBH)

• Insulin -like growth factor 1 (IGF-1)


Statistical Gymnastics (oops, I mean analyses)

This is where some very good studies sometimes go sour… incorrect analyses of the data (can anyone say repeated T-tests and type-II error?). Luckily, these researchers did their homework and used ANOVA to compare the changes from baseline among the five groups. They even examined all variables for their distribution characteristics and log-transformed those variables that didn't meet the assumptions of a normal distribution prior to analysis.


Results

Okay, here's what you've been waiting for. Let's start with hormone changes. Remember, weekly shots of GnRH assured that each subject's endogenous Testosterone production was at a minimum. Not surprisingly, 25 and 50 mg of Testosterone per week didn't "replace" what the GnRH had shut down. 125 mg/week seemed to keep total and free Testosterone at an even keel, while 300 mg and 600 mg/week doses led to roughly a doubling and quadrupling of Testosterone levels. LH was suppressed at all doses while SHBG increased only with the highest two doses.

Relative to changes in body composition, the lowest two doses of Testosterone led to a significant increase in fat mass (eeew!) while the middle dose (125 mg) once again led to no change. Fat-free mass (aka lean body mass) increased by 5.3 kg (11.7 lb) in the 300 mg group and 8.5 kg (18.7 lb) in the 600 mg group. The ratio of total body water to fat-free mass didn't change in any of the groups, indicating that the increases in fat-free mass were not a result of water retention.

On to muscle size and performance. Following suit, the lowest two doses had basically no effect on thigh or quadriceps muscle volume, leg press strength, or leg power. The 300 mg and 600 mg doses however led to significant increases in all of these parameters. Rather than confuse you with comma ****es and annoyingly long sentences, here's what the data look like in table form (note: the % increases represent the change from baseline to week 20).


Dose
Thigh muscle volume
Quad muscle volume
Leg strength
Leg power

300 mg
+9.9%
+8.7%
+16.4%
+16.5%

600 mg
+15.7%
+14.4%
+17.7%
+22.6%


Sexual function, visual-spatial cognition, mood and PSA levels didn't change in any of the groups. None of the blood chemistry or organ toxicity values (e.g., creatinine, bilirubin, ALT, AST, etc.) were altered, with the exception of dose-dependent decreases in HDL-C that ranged from 10-20% (5-8 mg/dL), and a 9.9% increase in hemoglobin in the 600 mg group (the absolute value of 155.7 g/L was still within normal clinical limits, though).


Conclusions

Back in 1985, a researcher named GB Forbes speculated that there was a linear relationship between Tstosterone dose and lean mass accretion. For years, athletes and scientists have nonetheless disagreed about the effect of anabolic steroids on strength, muscle mass, and health status. The data from this thorough study support Forbes' assertion: weekly injections of Testosterone enanthate result in dose-dependent increases in muscle mass, muscle size, strength, and power. The downside is that HDL-C tends to take a nasty dip and at higher doses hemoglobin levels rise a smidgeon.

On a final note, the researchers were quick to point out that there were considerable differences in the response to Testosterone administration within each group. Why? The most likely explanation is that Testosterone might differentially affect some (or all) of the many factors that are thought to control muscle growth, including: nutritional status, physical activity level, glucocorticoid, thyroid, and growth hormone levels, polymorphisms of the androgen receptor, myostatin levels, etc.

So even though this research was super thorough, it, like most studies, left scientists with more questions than answers.

As I read over this study for the tenth time, one thing is for sure: the athletes were right. Testosterone does increase strength, power, and muscle size without negatively affecting the kidneys, liver or, prostate — you just have to take enough of it (i.e., at least 300 mg/week). Now that Testosterone has been shown to improve muscle mass in the elderly, in normal men, and in those with wasting disorders, I wonder how long it will take for its rogue social status to disappear? Judging how the media handled the recent "anabolic steroids in baseball " scandal, we may still be a few decades away...


Tim Ziegenfuss, Ph.D., CSCS is the Chief Scientific Officer for an industry-leading, pharmaceutically-licensed nutritional supplement company. Tim is also an Adjunct Professor of Nutrition at Kent State University and has monthly columns in Physical Magazine and Muscular Development. Previously, "Dr. Z" spent five years as a college professor, teaching (Anatomy/Physiology, Sports Nutrition, Exercise Physiology) and researching sports supplements (creatine, protein, pyruvate, androstenedione, androstenediol, ma huang, ribose). You can contact Tim with questions about training, nutrition, or supplement use at: [email protected]


Reference

Bhasin, S et al. (2001). Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2811172-E1181.
__________________

[juicy_brucy]

Ross, you are one hell of a guy, and never stop your quest...

[juicy_brucy]

you see! good can come out of this.. speaking normally and calmly while sharing views and opinions is what everybody is here for.. both sides make valid points..

Don't get booted now Rossy, you are getting a bit of a following happening here...

[Seattle Junk]

Ross!!!!!! Dress for less...

Hey, at least he's not hiding under another bogus handle. I give him credit for that.

[Two4the$$]

THere was a time when a few of Ross arguments didn't seem stupid... but he's graduated... now it's PURE stupidity.

Ross... too many science journals disagree with you. I can't believe people actually ENGAGE in arguments with you.

You cannot reason with an unreasonable person.

Ross is commited to his views, and doesn't care how much evidence there is against them.

[CSK]

Maybe I missed something... but surely this guy isn't just getting banned because you all disagree with his ideas about cycling without test...

[juicy_brucy]

Maybe I missed something... but surely this guy isn't just getting banned because you all disagree with his ideas about cycling without test...

Hard to believe that what you typed is true....
I like a few of Rossies Ideas, but I'll get ripped a new ass if I say that....
whoops.

[juicy_brucy]

Agree to disagree boys.

[arnold_of_malta]

so is testostorone good or bad???? bacuse he says its dangerous the other one say its great!!!!!!!

[MASTER]

lets see some of these protocls you recommend then. Plus u havent really posted anything we didnt all know anyway, plenty of people here have done var or primo alone cycles!

[wrestler152]

i just want to see the damn pics. I am curious as hell to what this "wonder boy" looks like. ANyone have the thread that shows his old pics??

[RA]

Why ban the asshat? He keeps coming back anyway..is there no way to block him??

[shortie]

Ross was originally banned(if memory serves me correctly) for soliciting his "clients" off of this board. He continually gets banned again because each time he comes here he almost invariably advertises his email addy to once again cull "clients" from the board. As far as his opinions go, I have never seen him post a study or any scientifically intellgent research-he alway says anecdotal, meaning in his experience, but when called on to provide the science for this he has none. I think each time he comes here he manages to attract a few more to his "clientele" and scalp them for a few bucks based on their irrational fear of Test. I would be interested in listening to him though, if he would put up some science for his claims, and didn't have such an interest in getting into our wallets.

[shortie]

i just want to see the damn pics. I am curious as hell to what this "wonder boy" looks like. ANyone have the thread that shows his old pics??

Look up the The Mind of Ross under the member list, he posted his pic there I believe-not bad but, not the hulk by any stretch of the imagination.

[BOBBY D]

**** that, the guy has a good point, test is not needed every cycle. I'm tired of all this trendy bullshit that goes on sometimes. For one, most guys are dropping their test out from a show anywhere from 2-6 wks out while continuing to run other anabolics such as var,primo, winny, EQ. Second off, for all those who think test needs to be run higher than ****ing everything, it doesnt. Nothing wrong at all w/ a couple hundred more mg of EQ than test, or winny, or primo, or anavar, etc etc. Everything I've read from this guy sounds like he has experience and knows exactly whats likely to have negative sides and what isnt. It sounds like he's practiced what he's preached. I dont know why the guy originally got banned, but I'm willing to bet he's the real deal and not one of these dumbasses who talks the lingo then posts a pic of a physique that could have easily been achieved naturally, or talks the talk and has never even touched steroids in his life. If you want my honest opinion, this board needs more guys like him!! The trendy bullshit here is the circus act, not him.

I have to agree, somewhat. nobody ever looks at the past & how there weren't any problems then w/ their cycles. or even the fact that back in the day of modern bodybuilding (eugene sandow), there were no steroids & those victorian guys physiques looked amazing

[Smak]

i just want to see the damn pics. I am curious as hell to what this "wonder boy" looks like. ANyone have the thread that shows his old pics??

He has pics on this site already. Just do a search for "MindOfRoss" and they will pop up.

[Dalton5]

It is plain and simple--EVERYTHING I RECCOMEND I have DONE MYSELF!

Some have seen my pics from last YEAR, when I was around 200lbs, 6% BF, 5''10(They are on the board) I am now much bigger. I will be posting new pics shortly.


[R]

These pics dont seem to exist.

[eGGz]

Ross was originally banned(if memory serves me correctly) for soliciting his "clients" off of this board. He continually gets banned again because each time he comes here he almost invariably advertises his email addy to once again cull "clients" from the board. As far as his opinions go, I have never seen him post a study or any scientifically intellgent research-he alway says anecdotal, meaning in his experience, but when called on to provide the science for this he has none. I think each time he comes here he manages to attract a few more to his "clientele" and scalp them for a few bucks based on their irrational fear of Test. I would be interested in listening to him though, if he would put up some science for his claims, and didn't have such an interest in getting into our wallets.

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, We have a winner!

[Testostack]

i have never met anyone else who was a bigger waste of time and space.

get a life ross, i have NO idea why you insist upon signing up under a new name and coming back to this site. if i had been banned...i would move on to another site -- find someplace that DOES accept my rants.

let it go brotha.

LMFAO........That jerk REALLY need to find a girlfriend (if any is crazy enough) and really give us a break. At first that's funny, then boring,annoying, and now that freaks everybody out, i wish i could hav him in front of me and crush him then fill him out w/ Test ahahhhahahh

[powerliftmike]

FU Ross. Where do you come up with this crap? And WHY do YOU *TYPE* like THIS!!??

[BUYLONGTERM]

What I don't get is if you guys can't stand the guy or what he is saying is a joke, why bother even responding to his threads? You are adding fuel to the fire!!!!! If you ignore him, he will go away...

[Testostack]

What I don't get is if you guys can't stand the guy or what he is saying is a joke, why bother even responding to his threads? You are adding fuel to the fire!!!!! If you ignore him, he will go away...

I think you're 100% right, but the thing is he's pissing everybody off....and i assume that we feel kinda we HAVE to tell him off......

[BUYLONGTERM]

I think you're 100% right, but the thing is he's pissing everybody off....and i assume that we feel kinda we HAVE to tell him off......

Yeah, I see your point. But usually whenever I see threads that are a waste of time, I simply don't even respond.

Peace,

BLT

[Smak]

His posts are usually quite entertaining, but as of late he's been repeating his same rhetoric so it's becoming old.

[Testostack]

His posts are usually quite entertaining, but as of late he's been repeating his same rhetoric so it's becoming old.

So damn true!

[stayinstacked]

i just want to see the damn pics. I am curious as hell to what this "wonder boy" looks like. ANyone have the thread that shows his old pics??

Where are yours?

[Doc.Sust]

i have seen pictures off ross before, nothing out of the ordinary.185lbs, somewhat cut, but again , he doesn't look like swolecat, average at best.

[Doc.Sust]

Where are yours?

are you the sole memeber of the "ilove ross fan club"?? jeez i never saw anyone defend him so much. he may have something to say, put he never has anything to back what he says, he handles himself poorly, and solicits people fom the board, sounds to me ross earns his BAN everytime he is here.