Deca alone, or with primo, help please

[TinTin78]

Well, I need to buy this shit now, and start in january, so I don't have time to wait.

[TinTin78]

But I really would like a cutting cycle more, could I still gain alot in muscle mass with that. I don't like deca building up alot of water, I hate that effect, makes me feel sick.

[TinTin78]

Buylongterm going to bed now, maybe you could put up a nice cutting cycle here for me that last 12 weeks then. And everything I need while taking it (preventing Gyno, dickproblem etc.) and also pct when I am done. I would also like to know what kind of gains one could expect from it if food and rest is applied correctly?

Thank's for everything for today

[zomzom]

For you Tintin:

Different steroidal analogues(Oxandrolone,Nandrolone ,Testosterone Enanthate ) going head to head as combatants of fat production/storage...Worth noting is oxandrolone's SUPERIORITY over test and deca in visceral and abdominal fat depletion.Ox also carried some negative sides-cholesterol scale tipping to an unfavorable balance,T-3 &T-4 suppression,as well as T levels dropping slightly.Deca was actually able to REVERSE the cholesterol scale back to a favorable position,as well as reverse suppression of thyroid hormonal output(maybe a need to stack deca and oxandrolone together?)Enjoy folks...



Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

Lovejoy JC, Bray GA, Greeson CS, Klemperer M, Morris J, Partington C, Tulley R
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1995 Sep 19:614-24

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of testosterone enanthate (TE), anabolic steroid (AS) or placebo (PL) on regional fat distribution and health risk factors in obese middle-aged men undergoing weight loss by dietary means. DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, carried out for 9 months with primary assessments at 3 month intervals. Due to adverse blood lipid changes, the AS group was switched from oral oxandrolone (ASOX) to parenteral nandrolone decaoate (ASND) after the 3 month assessment point. SUBJECTS: Thirty healthy, obese men, aged 40-60 years, with serum testosterone (T) levels in the low-normal range (2-5 ng/mL). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Abdominal fat distribution and thigh muscle volume by CT scan, body composition by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), insulin sensitivity by the Minimal Model method, blood lipids, blood chemistry, blood pressure, thyroid hormones and urological parameters. RESULTS: After 3 months, there was a significantly greater decrease in subcutaneous (SQ) abdominal fat in the ASOX group compared to the TE and PL groups although body weight changes did not differ by treatment group. There was also a tendency for the ASOX group to exhibit greater losses in visceral fat, and the absolute level of visceral fat in this group was significantly lower at 3 months than in the TE and PL groups. There were significant main effects of treatment at 3 months on serum T and free T (increased in the TE group and decreased in the ASOX group) and on thyroid hormone parameters (T4 and t3 resin uptake significantly decreased in the ASOX group compared with the other two groups). There was a significant decrease in HDL-C, and increase in LDL-C in the ASOX group, which led to their being switched to the parenteral nandrolone decanoate (ASND) after 3 months. ASND had opposite effects on visceral fat from ASOX, producing a significant increase from 3 to 9 months while continuing to decrease SQ abdominal fat. ASND treatment also decreased thigh muscle area, while ASOX treatment increased high muscle. ASND reversed the effects of ASOX on lipoproteins and thyroid hormones. The previously reported effect of T to decrease visceral fat was not observed, in fact, visceral fat in the TE group increased slightly from 3 to 9 months, although SQ fat continued to decrease. Neither TE nor AS treatment resulted in any change in urologic parameters. CONCLUSIONS: Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE and ASND injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on metabolic and cardiovascular risk factors were due to weight loss per se. These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.
__________________

[zomzom]

bump plz

[TinTin78]

Thank's for that info, I am still thinking about doing deca , mostly because I want to keep mass, and not to build to much muscle to fast that will only go away. Then like some say, 400mg Deca then you should take more testo like 500mg, that is a whole lot and for 13 weeks. Maybe that is a ordinary cycle, but I know you still gain alot from only deca 6 weeks because I have done it. So I thought maybe 8 weeks this time, but then you guys say it shuts you down hard, and then you must have trouble keeping the gains or am I wrong? Why do people then say you keep most of it from Deca? Are these people using HCG or Novaldex during or after the cycle? I was almost certain and ready for this deca, but when I went on here it was a big nono to do deca alone so I just want to find out what the best mix would be for it to gain clean mass without looking like a balloon. And what other things needed to help my own production when I am done, and also prevent hairloss during? I think I have a pretty good testolevel right now 27 years old so when I am done I would like it to get back to that level, is that possible or do you loose some after each cycle?

[zomzom]

Test E500 for 12weeks / Deca 400mg for 10weeks divided in two dose 250Test E and 200 D monday and Thursday.

Use PROVIRON to keep the bloat away and other sides and improve ur performance overall. PLZ read ALL

Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron , but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.

Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.

Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone , nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone , or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.

Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe,

I will post an abstract to refute these next statements at the bottom of the page

Its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid , as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.

Stacking and Use:

Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.

The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.

It's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone, boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic.

Proviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this DHT can increase the blood pressure.


Abstract refuting that Proviron is not highly suppressive

Here is the study I was referring to. Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. I would say its pretty safe and has very little effect on one's HPTA

This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated.
Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

One more...
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.



Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.




There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in t3 and increases in t3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.



In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.


Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

[Testostack]

Test E500 for 12weeks / Deca 400mg for 10weeks divided in two dose 250Test E and 200 D monday and Thursday.

Use PROVIRON to keep the bloat away and other sides and improve ur performance overall. PLZ read ALL

Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron , but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.

Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.

Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone , nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone , or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.

Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe,

I will post an abstract to refute these next statements at the bottom of the page

Its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid , as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.

Stacking and Use:

Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.

The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.

It's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone, boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic.

Proviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this DHT can increase the blood pressure.


Abstract refuting that Proviron is not highly suppressive

Here is the study I was referring to. Only 85 men out of 250 showed any suppression. Proviron did not shut down the HPTA in any of the subjects and that was at 150mg for 1 year. I would say its pretty safe and has very little effect on one's HPTA

This study shows no effect on normal LH and FSH with 100-150mg/ d mesterolone, and decrease of FSH/LH that were elevated.
Proviron doesn't substitute Clomid as hpta therapy, but doesn't get in the way, either.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

Varma TR, Patel RH.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

One more...
Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone, estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased.



Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL.




There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH.
Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in t3 and increases in t3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged.



In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH.


Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

Ahhhh.....Zomzom, what a bible.....BTW, like that deca of yours?

[TinTin78]

Well Zomzom, is that the best combination to use, should I not use any Novaldex or HCG ? I really don't want to get watery at all, just lean hard muscles and I would like to bounce back quick after to maintain my gains.

My plan is to eat alot of protein during this cycle and a medium of carbs to avoid unecessary water buildup. What kind of sides should I count in taking these 3 preps?

Thank's for all the nice info so far

[zomzom]

Yes i would suggest you to use Nolva along the cycle with proviron . Your objectives is same as mine, i would opt for that cycle.

All the side effects possible should be decrease with nolva and proviron. You should maybe go to read the sticky about Nolva and Proviron to learn more about them. Go to DRUG PROFILES FORUM.

Yes to use HCG during last week of our cycle and for two weeks during the first two weeks of our PCT, shoots every 5days 1500 or 3000iu for 3weeks (it means only 3shoot of HCG to kick start the boost of naturel test)...

I ve never done an injection and i m just telling you what i ve learned

[BUYLONGTERM]

Thank's for that info, I am still thinking about doing deca, mostly because I want to keep mass, and not to build to much muscle to fast that will only go away. Then like some say, 400mg Deca then you should take more testo like 500mg, that is a whole lot and for 13 weeks. Maybe that is a ordinary cycle, but I know you still gain alot from only deca 6 weeks because I have done it. So I thought maybe 8 weeks this time, but then you guys say it shuts you down hard, and then you must have trouble keeping the gains or am I wrong? Why do people then say you keep most of it from Deca? Are these people using HCG or Novaldex during or after the cycle? I was almost certain and ready for this deca, but when I went on here it was a big nono to do deca alone so I just want to find out what the best mix would be for it to gain clean mass without looking like a balloon. And what other things needed to help my own production when I am done, and also prevent hairloss during? I think I have a pretty good testolevel right now 27 years old so when I am done I would like it to get back to that level, is that possible or do you loose some after each cycle?

Well, then I give up. You still just don't get it. Go ahead and do what "you" think is right. 6 weeks of Deca is a WASTE. Ask any knowledgable bro.

Best of luck,

BLT

[vitor]

Well, then I give up. You still just don't get it. Go ahead and do what "you" think is right. 6 weeks of Deca is a WASTE. Ask any knowledgable bro.

Best of luck,

BLT

Not if you use fast-acting nadrolone.

[BUYLONGTERM]

Not if you use fast-acting nadrolone.

You know what I mean!!!! And even if thats the case, I'd still run it longer than 6 weeks. Test Prop is a fast-acting ester, but I wouln't run it for 6 weeks!

My point is we gave him tons and tons of advise and we basically ended back to square one.

[TinTin78]

hehe, Buylong cool down, I am way past 6 weeks here, zomzom and I are talking about a 12 week long cycle now. I want deca to gain nice mass that will stay, and I need test with it to avoid sides but I would like a test that is good for hardness, and what I have heard it is prop, and it must be taken very regulary. Do you guys know of any other test that is good for cutting and is enough to take every 4th day or so. I don't want needle marks all over me, thank's

[TinTin78]

And one more thing, should I take nolva with it even if I don't feel any shrinking of balls or gyno? And the HCG I should take until everything feels normal again?

[TinTin78]

So, if i start this in january, and do it for 3 months, will I be fit in time for june, doing cardio and diet? I mean, does the sides and stuff stay so long so you can't get cut in time for summer? I don't want to be a waterballoon with decadick and shrunk balls over the summer.

[zomzom]

So, if i start this in january, and do it for 3 months, will I be fit in time for june, doing cardio and diet? I mean, does the sides and stuff stay so long so you can't get cut in time for summer? I don't want to be a waterballoon with decadick and shrunk balls over the summer.

Seriously now all should be clear

Test Prop is best for hardness and low water retention than enanthate but if you don t want to inject it Ed* or EOD* (*i don' t understand the difference so if somebody can explain me that (lol))...then if you don t want to inject Prop ED or EOD leave it and use Test E with PROVIRON it will decrease all side effects while improving your overall performance.

And one more thing, should I take nolva with it even if I don't feel any shrinking of balls or gyno? And the HCG I should take until everything feels normal again?

If you want to get big then don' t use NOLVA if you don t have gyno, you will have more estrogens of course and it will promote a better growth with all the side effects possible but don' t panic if you use Proviron it will help you a lot to stay away from side effects than if u were doing a cycle without any AI or Serms. If u decide to use Nolva and Proviron together along ur cycle u will have almost no estrogens and then less gains.

HCG should be used for no more 2-3weeks or it can suppress definitively your natural test. Side effects with HCG are same than Testosterone .

[zomzom]

I ve edited:

Yes to use HCG during last week of our cycle and for two weeks during the first two weeks of our PCT, shoots every 5days 1500 or 3000iu for 3weeks (it means only 3shoot of HCG to kick start the boost of naturel test)...

Injection with HCG must be also limited if u decide to use it for 3 weeks and inject HCG every 5days then do week1 3000iu and the two last weeks 1500iu, u can also make 3weeks at 1500iu, higher u inject HCG higher are the risk to get gyno. Yes, you can use Nolva or/and clomid with,

[BUYLONGTERM]

Have Nolva on hand in case gyno symtoms appear. Have some Armidex on hand in case of bloating. Test Enan or Cyp is fantastic to use. Remember, Test is test! Prop is known to help cut down on bloat (for those who bloat, I do NOT). I know guys who bloat on Prop as well. You will definitely keep most of your gain on Test. Unless your prone to Testicular Shrinkage, I don't think you will need it. I ran a cycle consisting of TEST, Tren , Winstrol , EQ, Masteron , (all at different times) and I never once had to use HCG . I at times ran 2grams of Test with no issues. The rule of thumb is have everything on hand just in case

[BUYLONGTERM]

Again, if you are looking for hardness, I strongly suggest EQ, but you seem to have your mind made up with Deca . And you will not see any gain loss running lose doses of Nolva!

[zomzom]

BUYLONGTERM u did many cycle at different time, i want to know if it means u did a Eq only cycle? if yes how was it?

Sorry for the thread but i was trying to pm you, it doesn t run??

[BUYLONGTERM]

BUYLONGTERM u did many cycle at different time, i want to know if it means u did a Eq only cycle? if yes how was it?

Sorry for the thread but i was trying to pm you, it doesn t run??

I have never done a cycle without running Test. When I ran my last cycle, I would always change things up. Meaning the first 16 weeks I'd run say Test and EQ. Then I would go with Test and say Tren . Then I would add some Winstrol and Masteron at different times. I love test so much, I honestly could never ever not run it. I have been off since August and boy do I miss it. But, being on that long I ran into health issues. (VERY high cholesterol). It is now back to normal but I'm going to wait a bit and perhaps try some IGF!!!

BTW, if that is you in your Avatar, you look great!!!

BLT

[zomzom]

I have been off since August and boy do I miss it.

Everybody know love is beautiful but it can blind (joke)

BTW, if that is you in your Avatar, you look great!!!

yes it is me after superdrol cycle there is a few months, today i m less leaner because i ve done a Methyl 1-P + Masterdrol.. i am the end of my 3th weeks of pct and my natural test is through the roof my cock tickle me Woaaww, i m into a horny season, looool. I used Week 1-2 Clomid with formadrol Xtreme week 1-3 and now i am using Blue rhino since a few days (tribulus, avena sativa, long jack caffeine complex and others suffs) and i have begun to use a stack 6-oxo&7-oxo with a transdermal from Dermabolics.

thx for the comment.
zomzom

[cfiler]

Test is your Meat and Potatos. I'm glad to hear that you are adding a test to your deca cycle. Although I'm sure there are better things you could run with the prop instead. Personally I would just run a basic test only cycle. Listen to these guys... they know their stuff.

[TinTin78]

hmm, test only, but do I keep the stuff then, I know people who have done test and they are smaller than me and I have never done it. I don't want a temporary boost, I love my hard body and really nice symmetri. I don't want to mess things up with testo if it is going to leave me again. That EQ you are talking about, is that mild on your hairline to? My requirements were mostly preps that are nice to my hair and balls.

One other question, what do you guys do about acne so it doesn't leave scars and stuff or is that just rare? I mean, do you get alot of acne from test, I remember getting some deeper pimples from deca .

Buylong, all these guys that do deca alone, how do they get by the hard shutdown anyway, there must be a period of 2 months that is really low on test. Will they not loose the gains they've got then? or do they use hcg 1 month after the deca?

[TinTin78]

zomzom, what would the cost be for this 12 week cycle of test E 500mg with Deca 400mg and proviron , and a PCT of HCG and all the nolva needed. I must see how far my cash will go, I know I need alot of other stuff as well for 3 solid months like protein, gainers, a good set of vitamins and aminoacids. I will not begin until I know I have everything set for 3 good months.

Buylong... Test is test? What do you mean, that sounded very serious =)

[BUYLONGTERM]

hmm, test only, but do I keep the stuff then, I know people who have done test and they are smaller than me and I have never done it. I don't want a temporary boost, I love my hard body and really nice symmetri. I don't want to mess things up with testo if it is going to leave me again. That EQ you are talking about, is that mild on your hairline to? My requirements were mostly preps that are nice to my hair and balls.

One other question, what do you guys do about acne so it doesn't leave scars and stuff or is that just rare? I mean, do you get alot of acne from test, I remember getting some deeper pimples from deca .

Buylong, all these guys that do deca alone, how do they get by the hard shutdown anyway, there must be a period of 2 months that is really low on test. Will they not loose the gains they've got then? or do they use hcg 1 month after the deca?

I don't think you realize, that TEST is a MAJOR muscle builder. It's not like your going to use test get all bloated and lose everything!!!! Come on now....Deca makes me breakout very bad, which is one of the reasons I will never touch the stuff again. If you want to be CUT, LEAN, and hard, I've said it a thousand times. Use, EQ, Test Prop, and if you could handle it, some TREN .

[TinTin78]

By the way, I think my body will not be so bad with these things, I see myself as a strong person physically. I think what happens if anything happens with me is the head, got depressed after my first deca . I can't promise it was only that, but it must have been, I did not train for 2 years after that deca and I cried like a girl for maybe 6 months sleeping all day. But still I liked the deca feeling while on it, I still can remember that sweet pump in my back and my t-shirt almost burst. And yes, it was only of 6 weeks so call me a natural deca absorber.

[TinTin78]

ok, buylong, what kind of masses are we talking about wíth Test prop and Eq alone, is it still a good builder even though it is a cutting cycle?

[niXon)(]

this is all crazyness.

[TinTin78]

ooh, and another one who just come in and say a little shit to fill up the thread. If you have nothing good to say so shut up, this is my thread and I ask what I want to know.

[testosterona]

ok, buylong, what kind of masses are we talking about wíth Test prop and Eq alone, is it still a good builder even though it is a cutting cycle?

ok man, DO SOME FVCKIN RESEARCH. for fvck sake man! this thread is driving me crazy. deca will NOT keep you lean, deca Will srink your balls (worse than test for me), so WTF! and what do you mean "is eq and prop and ggod mass builder" OR COURSE IT IS!!!! i suggest learning about these things on your own and ask questions when you get stuck. it is obvious you haven't done any research on your own.

[niXon)(]

ooh, and another one who just come in and say a little shit to fill up the thread. If you have nothing good to say so shut up, this is my thread and I ask what I want to know.

i dont give a **** if its george bush's thread ill say what i want.

im leting you know that another person that's not a newb knows there is some ****ked up advise being thrown in this thread.

[TinTin78]

You really feel that you are asking questions in a steroid thread because eveybody is so damn agressive and irritated by everyone. You might wanna cut back on that testo testosterona because it is obvious you can't handle it.

And about research, I did tons back 6 years ago when I first did deca , and at that time there were no info to find about decadick so I went for it. Today you can read forever and you will still not get any smarter, it is a waste of time. I know I just have to do like Buylong says, I have to dive in and try the shit. I know there are alot of people here reading and reading and talking and giving advice and they have never touched anything.

I am coming to a conclusion here, and it might make you jelous of me doing a really good cycle and growing those muscles that you felt you were alone to have in the whole universe! Well, I got news for you, everybody can get them it's just a matter of balls pushing that needle in!

[TinTin78]

Well, I don't think buylong and zomzoms advice are that bad after what I have read myself.

[testosterona]

You really feel that you are asking questions in a steroid thread because eveybody is so damn agressive and irritated by everyone. You might wanna cut back on that testo testosterona because it is obvious you can't handle it.

And about research, I did tons back 6 years ago when I first did deca , and at that time there were no info to find about decadick so I went for it. [B]Today you can read forever and you will still not get any smarter, it is a waste of [/B]time. I know I just have to do like Buylong says, I have to dive in and try the shit. I know there are alot of people here reading and reading and talking and giving advice and they have never touched anything.

I am coming to a conclusion here, and it might make you jelous of me doing a really good cycle and growing those muscles that you felt you were alone to have in the whole universe! Well, I got news for you, everybody can get them it's just a matter of balls pushing that needle in!

wow, good stuff here bro. go for it. grow those miricle muscles that EVERYONE can get. ha, you have alot too learn bro. ya, why don't you just jump in and try the shit. here you go:
ANADROL 200mgs ed wk 1-10
DECA 600mgs wk1-6
PCT: hcg

[TinTin78]

well it is a miracle, I know some people that didn't know shit about training and I know alot about eating right training and so on. They still went past me in weights and mass in a couple of months so don't talk like this isn't miracle juice because it is.

[testosterona]

well it is a miracle, I know some people that didn't know shit about training and I know alot about eating right training and so on. They still went past me in weights and mass in a couple of months so don't talk like this isn't miracle juice because it is.

juice with a shitty diet>

[chest6]

You are the most ignorant person I have ever seen in my life. People are just trying to help you.

[TinTin78]

Chest, then why don't you help, you and testerona are just saying alot of shit at the moment. The only ones in here who really helped so far is zomzom and Buylong. I am readin about all this as we speech, but I want to do the cycle in january not in the summer so I don't have that much time so I started this thread. What is so hard to understand with this, I want to get it done until march and then start my diet and cardio workout.