Pyramiding or Front loading a stack?

[Stupot]

Can anyone suggest what is the better way to plan a course. I normally pyramid a stack, but have been told to try front loading the next cycle.

My only concern with this is I would expect it to be difficult to control blood and estrogen levels?

Is this so or am i talkin out me rear?

[guns626]

My ? is this. You are worried about blood levels but you pyramid? I believe that you get more consistent blood levels with running the same dose week after week. I do believ in frontloading though. This gives the body a quick introduction to the drugs and if you research this there was a graph that showed that frontloading actually allows more stability in test levels. Good luck

[mkrulic]

Don't recommend either. Tappering off is a good idea though. It helps me avoid the crash. I run the test for a couple weeks longer than the other coumpounds.

[stupidhippo]

if u want to keep blood levels stable u should avoid pyramiding..

[Stupot]

Tappering off the test will happen whether i pyrimid or front load. I had always been under the impression that slowing increasing amounts and then tappering off helps to maintain blood and test levels.

I will probably give the front loading a try then, just my concern was exposing myself to high doses right from the start rather than gradually increasing!

Thanks for you replies!

[JohnnyB]

Don't recommend either. Tappering off is a good idea though. It helps me avoid the crash. I run the test for a couple weeks longer than the other coumpounds.

Are you sure, you wouldn't recomned pyrimiding but you would typering. There the same thing, the difference is one you do on both ends and the other at the end.

I tried frontloading with EQ and I didn't see any advantage to it.

JohnnyB

[hosam4ever]

by any means when we inject any aas it pyramids itself automatically due to the esters & reales time so no need 2 pyramid

[mkrulic]

Are you sure, you wouldn't recomned pyrimiding but you would typering. There the same thing, the difference is one you do on both ends and the other at the end.

I tried frontloading with EQ and I didn't see any advantage to it.

JohnnyB

No to the pyrimid. I start off with a healthy amount and stay at that level for 6 weeks. then tapper off w/ the test only for 2 weeks. If you front load, do it w/ short ester hormones only. that works better.

[SPIKE]

I tried frontloading with EQ and I didn't see any advantage to it.

I frontloaded Test E and EQ and so no advantage to it as well...........

Tappering off is a good idea though. It helps me avoid the crash.

I agree with Johnny on this one MK. Tappering makes no sense, Proper PCT timing will avoid a "crash" not tapering. A drug has a half-life, regardless of the amount injected it will still be in your system for that amount of time.

If you front load, do it w/ short ester hormones only. that works better.

Why would you want to do that? The point of frontloading is to "activate" longer esters quicker, why would you need to frontload short esters if they are active much quicker then longer ones?

[mkrulic]

I agree with Johnny on this one MK. Tappering makes no sense, Proper PCT timing will avoid a "crash" not tapering. A drug has a half-life, regardless of the amount injected it will still be in your system for that amount of time.

Can't use pct. side effects. and I crash if I don't tapper, don't crash if I do. Since I started tappering I've dept gains and havn't crashed.

Why would you want to do that? The point of frontloading is to "activate" longer esters quicker, why would you need to frontload short esters if they are active much quicker then longer ones?

You answered that question right here:

I frontloaded Test E and EQ and so no advantage to it as well...........

[SPIKE]

Can't use pct. side effects.

What causes you side effects and what kind? Clomid? Nolvadex ? HCG ? Tribulus? Aromasin ? Proviron ? Any or all of these?


Can you explain to me why it is better to use short estered compounds MK? I said no advantage but there were disadvantages........

[mkrulic]

What causes you side effects and what kind? Clomid? Nolvadex? HCG? Tribulus? Aromasin? Proviron? Any or all of these?

It's the clomid. I get blurred vision really bad. not many people get it but if you search this board you'll find there are some that get it. some push thru it. I'm just gonna stick w/ tappering.

Can you explain to me why it is better to use short estered compounds MK? I said no advantage but there were disadvantages........

I don't recommend front loading but if you do it would seem like short esters are the way to go. the reason people front load is to get the ball rolling and you wouldn't notice that with a long ester hormone. IMO long esters are for stability.

[SPIKE]

It's the clomid. I get blurred vision really bad.

Yea that seems to be very common MK. You can try a clomid free PCT, why dont you try that instead of tapering? I'd highly recommend it and it wouldnt hurt trying that once right? I"m sure you'll never go back to tapering.

I don't recommend front loading but if you do it would seem like short esters are the way to go. the reason people front load is to get the ball rolling and you wouldn't notice that with a long ester hormone.

Frontloading in general is simply a case of trying to achieve the desired blood level of the compounds you use from the start of the cycle instead of several weeks later(long esters). Who wouldn't want a compound to be active within a week rather then 5-6(long esters)? Just didn't prove effective when I did it..........

Maybe if using long esters in a 8 weeker then you would want to but in a 14+ weeker its pointless, like when I used it...

Back to your statement MK, "to get the ball rolling." With short esters or even esterless you dont need to enhace that effect. They kick in within a week. If using long esters and contemplating a frontload I would much rather see someone kickstart their cycle with an Oral and keep a steady dose of a long ester...............

[mkrulic]

Frontloading in general is simply a case of trying to achieve the desired blood level of the compounds you use from the start of the cycle instead of several weeks later(long esters). Who wouldn't want a compound to be active within a week rather then 5-6(long esters)? Just didn't prove effective when I did it..........

Maybe if using long esters in a 8 weeker then you would want to but in a 14+ weeker its pointless, like when I used it...

Back to your statement MK, "to get the ball rolling." With short esters or even esterless you dont need to enhace that effect. They kick in within a week. If using long esters and contemplating a frontload I would much rather see someone kickstart their cycle with an Oral and keep a steady dose of a long ester...............

Well said. Hopefully Stupot is still reading and what not. If you would pm me any clomid free pct you know of I would be verry appreciative. Thanks

[SPIKE]

Well said. Hopefully Stupot is still reading and what not. If you would pm me any clomid free pct you know of I would be verry appreciative. Thanks

PM sent buddy, all set...............

[SPIKE]

Hopefully Stupot is still reading and what not.

Stupot you alive????????

[JohnnyB]

No to the pyrimid. I start off with a healthy amount and stay at that level for 6 weeks. then tapper off w/ the test only for 2 weeks. If you front load, do it w/ short ester hormones only. that works better.

As mentioned the ester does the typering for you, I do the short ester thing to but it's not call typering, because you're trying to keep the test levels up as long as you can before PCT.

JohnnyB

[Warrior]

I always frontload a heavy ester... if you work out the math it shows blood androgen levels can spike much sooner - to get the effects of the hormones faster. Your body has ways to attempt to reach homeostatis and slow your gains even when pumping in large amounts of exogenous androgens (HPTA, testicular shut down, SHBG, ...)... so I would rather get the androgen levels up fast, get the cycle rollin' and into PCT and leave the endocrine system sayin' "Whoaaa - WTF was that!"

Example.... if I was going to do 250mg of TE every 3 days for 583mg per week I would begin with 500mg on day one, then 250mg on day two, 250mg on day four... and then 250mg every 3 days from then on... getting in 750-1000mg - about double maintenance dose prior at first half life (first 4-5 days after first shot)...

If you plug this stuff into the roid calculator you will see - using 250mg of TE every 3 days - blood androgen levels elevate and stabilize after 5 weeks. When you frontload like I mentioned above - they elevate and stabilize the first week... completely stable after week 2...

[SPIKE]

I always frontload a heavy ester... if you work out the math it shows blood androgen levels can spike much sooner - to get the effects of the hormones faster. ..

All good wording Warrior...........

I thought I was the only one with that link!!! I have a different link but the same calc. Took me FOREVER to input my entire cycle one day, but I did and it look appetising. Here is what I did:

Week 1-----> 1500mgs Test E and 1200mgs of EQ. For 13 following weeks I did 750mgs Test E and 600mgs EQ. I do have to say that I felt everything "kick in" after a mere 2-3 weeks. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut gains come to such a quick halt at around week 10 or so!!! I know my body well and I typically start progressing slower at week 12+.

I really feel it was the frontloading that caused my gains to cease rather quickly. Maybe SHBG levels climbed quicker then normal locking up test . Due to that last cycle I"m trying something new in my next. We shall see..........................

Frontloading was one of those thigns that looked great on paper but didnt go over well with my body. Trial and error took care of that one, for me at least.........

[Warrior]

Yeah - that's a great program/link!

Today, I can't imaging not frontloading - I don't know... it just seems right. I would like to hear from more people regarding this... today I don't go over 10 weeks anyway. But I guess it would make sense that the gains would slow down >10 weeks since the body is quickly exposed to the superphysiological androgen levels at the first week of use... as compared to not frontloading and getting levels elevated several weeks later...

What if you jumped the cycle with some acetate/prop or orals - do you still see the same effect after week 10?

[SPIKE]

today I don't go over 10 weeks anyway.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh here's a cut and paste fomr my post #13 "Maybe if using long esters in a 8 weeker then you would want to but in a 14+ weeker its pointless, like when I used it..."

OK OK so we do see eye to eye on this one. I'm sure if I stopped anywhere from week 8-10 I would have like it more.

What if you jumped the cycle with some acetate/prop or orals - do you still see the same effect after week 10?

Definitely not, gains last a bit longer but not more then a month. That was always my way of my body telling me to come off. My next cycle will be a 20 weeker but at week 14 am introducing some DHT derivs in hopes of lowering SHBG levels and freeing up some test in order to attain some new gains. Only time will tell and I"m basing that off SHBG being the main culprit in putting a stop to my gains.........Trial and error once again, I'll get it down one day..............

[vitor]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh here's a cut and paste fomr my post #13 "Maybe if using long esters in a 8 weeker then you would want to but in a 14+ weeker its pointless, like when I used it..."

OK OK so we do see eye to eye on this one. I'm sure if I stopped anywhere from week 8-10 I would have like it more.








Definitely not, gains last a bit longer but not more then a month. That was always my way of my body telling me to come off. My next cycle will be a 20 weeker but at week 14 am introducing some DHT derivs in hopes of lowering SHBG levels and freeing up some test in order to attain some new gains. Only time will tell and I"m basing that off SHBG being the main culprit in putting a stop to my gains.........Trial and error once again, I'll get it down one day..............

Proviron is the most effective drug at lowering your SHBG, so you can free up more test. As little as 25mgs ed, would help alot.

[Warrior]

SHBG could deffinitly put the curb to a cycle. Since you bring it up - isn't there a way to get blood work done while on that would measure free and bound testosterone levels as well as free testosterone ? We could compare the results to see how much exogenous use ends up getting bound as a cycle progresses...

I could prolly get this blood work next time I'm on... and I'll check and see if the two tests are available for me...

Check this out... according to this author, high levels of insulin can help lower SHBG... makes sense when you compare going on cycle with excess calories coming in versus going on with low/restricted calories - the difference is night and day as far as increased anabolism. Also interesting is how estrogen (and T4) is being linked to elevating SHBG... further supporting using anti-e's during a cycle...

DHT - are you referring to Winstrol ? That would be another thing for blood work comparing bound and unbound androgen level ratios...

[SPIKE]

Proviron is the most effective drug at lowering your SHBG, so you can free up more test. As little as 25mgs ed, would help alot.

Ahhhhhhhh Vitor you love that proviron buddy.

Was actually contemplating using 50mgs of that with 20mgs of Nolvadex before deciding to go with 20mgs of exemestane. If it wasnt for what I have planned I would have taken a third out of my cycle and used the Proviron/Nolv combo...........

[SPIKE]

according to this author, high levels of insulin can help lower SHBG...

Here is that snippet from the link you posted, good info.


Its level are decreased by high levels of insulin and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I). Also, androgen levels decrease, and estrogen and thyroxine levels increase SHBG.