*Balancing Estrongen blocking and hindering gains*

[Ih8urdsm]

Just wondering some of your opinions on blocking estrogen conversion hindering gains, and how you choose/decide on how much/which chems your going to run to minimize the side affects, and also not take too much or too strong a chem that will be counterproductive.

Part of this question is based on an article on bk's site.
A part of that article:

"To date the most common explanation for why anti-estrogens may be slightly counterproductive to growth in the sports literature has been the suggestion that estrogen plays a role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor 1, formerly known as somatomedin C) is of course an anabolic product released primarily in the liver via GH stimulus. IGF-1 is responsible for the growth promoting effects (increased nitrogen retention, cell proliferation) we associate with growth hormone therapy. We do know that women have higher levels of growth hormone than men, and also that GH secretion varies over the course of the menstrual cycle in direct correlation with estrogen levels[iv]. Estrogen is likewise often looked at as a key trigger in the release of GH in women under normal physiological situations.

It is also suggested that the aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of GH and IGF-1. This was evidenced by a 1993 study of hypogonadal men, comparing the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels with and without the addition of tamoxifen [v]. When the anti-estrogen tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-1 levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300mg of testosterone enanthate weekly (which elevated estradiol levels) to cause a slight IGF-1 increase in normal men, whereas 300mg weekly of nandrolone decanoate (a poor substrate for aromatase that caused a lowering of estradiol levels in this study) would not elevate IGF-1 levels[vi]. Yet another study shows that GH and IGF-1 secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress GH and IGF-1 secretion, presumably due to its strong anti-estrogenic/gonadotropin suppressing action[vii]. All of these studies seem to support a direct, estrogen-dependant mechanism for GH and/or IGF-1 release in men. It is difficult to say at this point just how important estrogen is to IGF-1 production as it relates to the promotion of anabolism in the steroid using athlete, however it remains an interesting subject to investigate."

"What does this all mean?
It is a long held belief among athletes that estrogen maintenance drugs can slightly hinder muscle gains during steroid therapy with a strong aromatizable steroid such as testosterone. Whether or not we have plausibly explained this remains to be seen, however the above evidence certainly does provide strong support for a direct and positive affect of estrogen on growth. Does this mean we should abandon estrogen maintenance drugs? I don’t think that should be the case. It is important to remember that estrogen can deliver many unwanted effects such as increased water retention, fat deposition and the development of female breast tissue when it becomes too active in the male body. Clearly if we plan a high-dose cycle with an aromatizable steroid, anti-estrogens will be an important inclusion. However we cannot ignore the suggestion of using estrogen maintenance drugs only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects during mild to moderately dosed cycles, especially if bulk is the ultimate goal of the athlete."



**Obviously there is more to this article, but i dont think i can put a link to that page.

[C_Bino]

Y they can hinder gains, but I run letro with my cycles regardless of its impact on estro and thus gains. I really dont think its worth it to be maybe 1-5 pounds heavier when that weight is in your new pair of tits. For me this is not even a question? I will always run letro and kill all of that goddamn estro.

[Ih8urdsm]

im running letro with this cycle, you and swifto helped w/ that decision. I have always run nolva throughout if you remember, and i know i hear a lot of people do run cycles w/ just nolva on hand or letro on hand, i was curious on how they determine that the cycle is light vs. heavy enough to run no anti e

like i said, i always have , and i agree with you

[C_Bino]

I think it all depends on the person. Some people dont need to run a SERM/AI while on cycle because they dont experience the sides. You have to go on personal experience with how your body reacts to increased estrogen in your system, and how sensitive you are to things like gyno etc. Also it will depend on what substances you run, if you are running masteron or something else that wont aromatize then you wont need to run an ancillary.
Its all personal...

[stupidhippo]

I just keep nolva on hand. Doing 1,5 G's of test a week and no sides so far.. Nothing that would hint about gyno. Maybe Im one of the lucky ones (knock on wood)

[Logan13]

In my experience,and I have done cycles with and without serms/A1s, the increased weight gain from a cycle without was 90% water. Guys make too much out of "will this hinder my gains". Should you get gyno, you will have bigger problems, and no keeping shit "on-hand" is just silly. Throw back your 10-20mg of Nolva ED and be done with it, why chance it. Do you know how many threads that I have seen on this board alone from guys saying "my nipples itch and/or I have small lump in my pec" or even worse "is this gyno?". Ask those poor bastards what their stance on Serms & A1 is ...............

[IBdmfkr]

Always run SERM and/or AI during cycle. Tried it without and prefer With.