new cycle help!! clen or winny? masteron? Tes prop?

**caper** · 08-28-2006, 05:01 PM

Hey guys,

Background: 23, 175lbs, 16% body fat and wanting to trim alot of belly fat off but still retain most of my muscle and strength. MY BODY IS STUBBORN...its extremly hard for me to gain or lose my weight. Cardio is good..i run 2 hours a day every other day...inbetween days i hit the weights...this is my fat burning workout

Previous Cycle: Only other cycle: Deca /Test E. 7 weeks. august 2005

So my GOAL is to mainly drop my body fat from 16% to 10% or whatever i can get and then SECONDLY gain muscle mass

I was originally going to take a TEST prop and winstrol cycle but have had VERY NEGATIVE feedback from everyone that this is not what i want

i will be taking this cycle with 2 other friends and we are researching the following...can someone provide some personal thought about the cycles and correct my understand of the cycles that i have learned through research?

1.)Masteron , Test Prop, and CLEN or Winny(started towards the end).....This stuff sounds all around great..good body fat reduction, good strength, good gains, low side-effects...but more of a bulking than cutting...i hear i wont be able to lower my body fat to where i want to be at but will the clen help get me where i want at the end? or is this a dangerous cycle

2.)Winstrol and Test prop...pure cutting..and i leave bulking to my natural abilities after the cycle. Ive read for the most part winstol is only for the end of a bulking cycle to maximize results...but what if i took winny and test prop at the same time? 50mg a day, and 2 cc of test prop a week(1cc every two days)??

3.)CLEN and Test Prop...pure cutting option 2. Ive heard this stuff is pretty good due to its thermo properties...i want to use it the same way as the winstrol...take both of them at the same time instead of taking clen as a PCT towards the end of a testosterone cycle.

and obviously a clomid PCT for all three

If it helps--->"as it stands...id rather lose 6% body fat than bulk up...but if using masteron makes me bulk up and thus burn fat via muscle mass at a decent rate, then that will work"

I WILL BE ON ALL NIGHT waiting for replies...please stick around after you post for my reply! THANKS FOR YOUR HELP

**cfiler** · 08-28-2006, 05:11 PM

I would save the clen for after the cycle, you could start during PCT.

Personally I'd go with test prop and Winstrol . It's a combo that I have found works quite well, aswell it would be the least expensive.

Masteron is nice, but not worth the added expense when compared to Winstrol imo.

**caper** · 08-28-2006, 05:21 PM

can someone tell me more about masteron ?? im reading stuff and im very confused...bulker cutter??

im desperate to lose this belly fat...my upper is 80% where i want it...my gentics suck also

**clozr** · 08-28-2006, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by cfiler

I would save the clen for after the cycle, you could start during PCT.

Personally I'd go with test prop and Winstrol . It's a combo that I have found works quite well, aswell it would be the least expensive.

Masteron is nice, but not worth the added expense when compared to Winstrol imo.

I agree. The problem with coming down in BF is that you almost inevitably lose mass. That is very BAD. The Prop will protect the muscle that you have and the Winny will help with the weight. If money isn't an issue, then i would throw in the masteron too! They make for a pretty powerful combo. If you are, however, prone to MPB, you could have some problems because they are both DHT derivatives.

**caper** · 08-28-2006, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by clozr

If you are, however, prone to MPB, you could have some problems because they are both DHT derivatives.

Woah...woah..waoh...put this into stupid terms

ALSO ...why does everyone say masteron is for people with lower bf??

also id like to state that i lost most of my gains from my first cycle..

you could say its like i was starting over fresh...meaning im not as muscular as i used to be...and i could definitely afford to lose muscle mass if it dropped my body fat...

REMEMBER...I DONT want to be goldberg...i want to be small waist, middle chest, middle arms...i hate to say it..but brad pitt in fight club...

so once again...losing the muscle mass i have now is no problem since i have little to lose (IMO)

**clozr** · 08-28-2006, 05:29 PM

MPB=Male Pattern Baldness DHT=Dihydrotestosterone. That is, basically, the shiznit that makes you bald. Masteron is, generally, used by guys with lower bf, but I am not sure as to why. My thinking is that because of the price, it may be more of a precontest thing.

**caper** · 08-28-2006, 05:30 PM

oh no worries then...my haircut people always try to get my to sell my hair...i have the thickest hair that grows about an inch in a week (please re-read my last comments..i have editted them with questions)

**clozr** · 08-28-2006, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by caper

oh no worries then...my haircut people always try to get my to sell my hair...i have the thickest hair that grows about an inch in a week (please re-read my last comments..i have editted them with questions)

I started to read them, then got to the Brad Pitt thing, went into the other room and vomitted. I feel better now. I stopped reading because I figured that you didn't want me completely formulating the opinion that had just begun to emerge. You still need to go to the steroid resources section of the website and do a little bit more of your own research on these compounds. Based on average height(you didn't post height), you can put on a good bit of muscle without looking overly developed. I'm 5'11" 199 @ 7.2% BF with a 32" waist and don't look huge.

**caper** · 08-28-2006, 05:41 PM

AHH sorry..i hate using that example but i alway use the two people that are opposite of each other but still have muscle mass...brad pitt vs Goldberg wrestler look...

some people like to look huge...some people dont..im not one..i want to have tone

im 5'8 @170lbs @ 15-16% bf....what do i do dude??? if i have to spend the $$ to get where i want...fine...but is masteron for those who are already low in bf??

***perfectbeast2001*** · 08-28-2006, 05:44 PM

These AS are going to do NOTHING for you in terms of fat loss. When AS are described as cutters that is usually referring to someone in near contest shape (under 8% BF) who wishes to "harden up" the muscle they have. If you want to lose belly fat then you need a good diet and some hard work on the cardio machines. There are compounds That will help you (clen for instance) but I would take a look at your diet first. Post your diet so we can check it out.

**caper** · 08-28-2006, 05:48 PM

hey perfect...i agree with you...i actually have a personal fitness guy that helps me form my diet...i will be happy to post it after i figure out a cycle to order the gear for

however...the only reason i am rushing this is because my ordering gear window is closing but I dont plan on taking anything until at least a month of research.

as far as me being a lazy a$$ or something...im not...ive been doing what ive doing without gear for 4 months...i lost 1% of bf...my doctor has even said my metabolism is low and my genetics are horrible for losing fat/gaining mass

my whole family is overweight....they all eat like birds...genetics suck...

HENCE>..i think i will spend the extra dollar and take the masteron , tes prop, and clen cycle...

im hoping this will boost my muscle gains, increase my metabolism, increase my strength, and then clen will cut down the rest of the body fat that hasnt lowered from muscle gains

does this sound right? (keeping in mind that these are boosters for results as opposed to the sole reason i lose my bf...i understand good diet is the key)

**cfiler** · 08-28-2006, 06:08 PM

You have to choose if you are cutting or bulking, you can;t do both.

You need to take in an excess of callories to add muscle, or take in less callories than maintence to cut.

The clen is only a thermo, and not a miracle drug. Personally I would take the clen during PCT, not during the cycle.

**caper** · 08-28-2006, 06:51 PM

i want to cut!!!

so you say Masteron , test prop and then clen will get me to the BF i want to be at? and alittle extra muscle/strength on the side?

**cfiler** · 08-28-2006, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by caper

i want to cut!!!

so you say Masteron, test prop and then clen will get me to the BF i want to be at? and alittle extra muscle/strength on the side?

It's all diet, aas is primarily there to preserve your existing muscle.

To lose fat, you will need to have a good diet, workout, and cardio ruitine.

You should not gain any muscle or strength while cutting. If you do, your callorie intake is too high.

**caper** · 08-28-2006, 07:59 PM

so will masteron help me on accomplishing my goal or is it only helpful for very low BF's %???

id rather not spend the extra $$ if it didnt do anything..

also...what results in general will i be seeing from masteron?

**caper** · 08-28-2006, 07:59 PM

double post..sorry

**briansauras** · 08-28-2006, 10:38 PM

AAS is not going to do anything to lower your bodyfat. Like it was stated hundreds of times, it help preserve existing muscle during cutting since you are generally eat alot less/doing cardio.
If your PT is as good as you say he is why cant you lose/gain weight without the help of aas. I find that hard to believe. You are deff doing something wrong.

7wks of test e/ deca is the one of the worst cycles ever. You need to stay away from aas focus on diet/routine and do a shit ton of research.

**briansauras** · 08-28-2006, 10:38 PM

AAS is not going to do anything to lower your bodyfat. Like it was stated hundreds of times, it help preserve existing muscle during cutting since you are generally eat alot less/doing cardio.
If your PT is as good as you say he is why cant you lose/gain weight without the help of aas. I find that hard to believe. You are deff doing something wrong.

7wks of test e/ deca is the one of the worst cycles ever. You need to stay away from aas focus on diet/routine and do a shit ton of research.

***perfectbeast2001*** · 08-29-2006, 04:19 AM

I had to cut from 22 stone to 14 so I know a little bit about cutting. If you have a slow metabolism then you can speed it up with correct diet. If it was really slow due to thyroid problem your doctor would have prescribed you meds. Masteron will do NOTHING for you, your BF is not low enough. The only AS that might have a very small effect would be tren , many ppl combine this with T3 which will speed your metabolism also. I would not suggest you do any AS until you post your diet and training routine. My guess is that they are both seriously flawed. Genetics are an excuse out of shape people use to stay out of shape.

**caper** · 08-29-2006, 06:59 AM

im not out of shape by anymeans...i just have stubborn belly fat...

Meal 1: 7:00AM

Meal Option 1:6 Scrambled Egg whites (sometimes mixed with Simply potatoes hash browns for taste), 1/2 cup oatmeal (old fashion with splenda) **(simply potatoes off member stayinstacked post)
Meal Option 2: ½ cup oats 5g pro 27g carbs 3g fat
½ cup skim milk 4g pro 5.5 g carbs 0g fat
1 scoop whey 21.25o 3.75g carbs 4.4g fat
Total cal = 332 cal

Meal 2: 9:00AM
Protein shake (60 grams of whey protein) (2 tbsp flax mixed in)

Meal 3: (11:35am) (lunchtime)
various veggies (baked) and two baked chicken breast with assorted herbs or 1-2 can of tuna with hotsauce and mayo and Protein Shake ( 60 grams with 2 tbsp flax)

Meal 5: (5:00-6:00) (dinner)
Veggies w/ olive oil and Mrs.dash (no salt) or with Fat free cheddar cheese, Lean Protein (baked chicken, lean steak, or salmon w/ alittle butter and herbs), 1/2 cup brown rice or oatmeal with splenda.

WORKOUT (see way below)

Meal 4: (whenever i get home) PWO Nutrition:
Protein Shake (60grams of whey protein), and lean protein (chicken breast with assorted herbs or salmon or 2 cans of tuna with hot sauce) with wheat bread for my carbs

Meal 6: (9-10pm)GNC 60grams of Whey protein with Flax Or if full stomach, 2 tablespoons of peanut butter

**my BMR is about 1900Cals

WORKOUT :

M/W/F:
45-60 minutes of cardio at a heart rate of 152 so i dont burn muscle (longer for bike, shorter for eliptical or treadmill)
3 X 25 ab crunches on various machines
3 X 14 oblique machine (the one where you sit down and twist left and right with resistance)
3 X 10 Leg press weight depends on energy level

TUES:
20 minutes of cardio at 152 heart rate
Full Upper body WOrkout:

chest:
dumbbell bench warm up sets 50's on each side 10 reps 2 sets
6 reps of 75 X 3 sets
dumbell decline
6 reps of 65-70(depends on energy level) 2 sets
incline dumbells
4-6 reps of 55 2 sets

back

pull ups (warm up sets): 10 reps 2 sets
Sitdown Cable Rows:
7 reps of 100 X 2 sets
10 reps of 120 x 1 set
v bar Front pulldowns
4-6 reps of 120 X 2 sets

THURSDAY:
20 minutes of cardio at 152 heart rate

Arms:

10 reps of pull ups close grip x 2 sets (warm up)
10 reps of 35lbs of declined sitdown curls X 3 reps
10 reps of 40lbs X 3 cable curls...(i dont know the name, its the one that uses the large cross cable work machine..you look like your flexing with your arms uup or if in the police arest mode with your hands up and then you extend cable to where your arms are extended then curl them back up and tap your head, hold then extend.) maybe upper arm stance curls?
10 Reps of 45lbs X 3 straight bar curls

triceps

Rope cable pushdowns warm up 10 reps of 35 X 2 sets
4-6 reps of 70 X 3 sets
Dips
10-12 reps x 3 (energy level)
skull crushers
4-6 reps of 60 X 3 sets

Saturday and SUnday (rest)

**caper** · 08-29-2006, 07:01 AM

well...i just got the masteron , test prop and winny...so now i need to research a cycle

***perfectbeast2001*** · 08-29-2006, 08:47 AM

Your diet is not that bad. However if cutting I would drop milk and cheese. I would also stop mixing fats with carbs as the carbs will spike your insulin levels causing fats to be stored. So its fine to have salmon (leave the butter though) just dont have carbs with it. And if you have a carb meal pick a lean protein source.

Your workout is OK but you are not putting in enough cardio. If you are dedicated to getting rid of belly fat you need to do 45 mins AM on empty stomach every day. And you should keep your HR between 130-140 to avoid burning muscle. You will want to add 30-45 mins cardio to evening as well if you have difficulties with the remaining fat. Good luck

**caper** · 08-29-2006, 09:15 AM

thanks perfect! geez...i was beginning to think you didnt like me =)

anyways...sorry about rushing everyones opinions...ive been researching winny/test prop for awhile and decided to jump on the forums a few days back...my problem was that the only guy i trust getting my "gear" is making an order this morning..i was basically in or out. Im doing this cycle with about 3 other people and all of sudden yesterday my supplier told me to think about masteron and that he liked it better than winny or clen ...

so i had 8 hours to research and decide..

I purchased a bottle of masteron, a bottle of test prop, and i will decide in a week or two if i want to use clen or winny with the mast/test prop

perfect...have you used this cycle before? i see from your avay that we share the same ideal body(as opposed to the wrestler look). ive been researching this masteron...and i KNOW its for low bf's...but maybe i can use all 3 AAS's to my advantage by changing up the "normal" cycle everyone uses.

**Dr. Knockboot** · 08-29-2006, 09:21 AM

The Dr. Says,

For maximum fat loss obviously the diet and cardio must be in order first and foremost.

After that Reccomendation is Masteron and anavar . Leave the Winny alone.

Best,

The Doc

***perfectbeast2001*** · 08-29-2006, 09:28 AM

Nothing against you mate Im sure your a good guy. Sorry if i came over mean!! Yes I have run prop,winny and masteron . I also used Tren and t3 during the cycle. My avvy picture was the end result of that cycle a few months ago. Cycle looked like this

1-12 Prop 100mg EOD
1-6 Tren 100mg EOD
1-6 clen
1-6 T3
6-12 winny 50mg ED
6-12 Masteron 100mg EOD
1-12 Nolvadex 10mg

All followed up with PCT.

The compounds at the beginning of the cycle helped me to lose a little stubborn fat while retaining muscle and then (with lots of cardio and good diet) when BF was low enough the winny and mas hardened me up nicely.

***perfectbeast2001*** · 08-29-2006, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Knockboot

The Dr. Says,

For maximum fat loss obviously the diet and cardio must be in order first and foremost.

After that Reccomendation is Masteron and anavar. Leave the Winny alone.

Best,

The Doc

Explain?

**caper** · 08-29-2006, 09:51 AM

ahh i see..but since i dont have your shape just yet, what if i didnt use masteron as a PCT..and used it with test prop as the primary AAS and then bring winny in later on down the cycle like you suggest..

so something like this..sorry i read in CC better than mg...you can slap me later...

so using what i ordered...i have in my hands and from my last stack that i never used: 10ml Test prop, One bottle of Masteron (never bought before so not sure how it comes but i assume 10ml), 40-60tabsX 50mg Winny, and from a old cycle 50tabsX10mg Cynomel (never even opened)

1-4 Prop 1cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
4-8 Prop 1.5cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
1-4 Masteron 1cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
4-8 Masteron 1.5cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
6-12 winny 50mg ED
6-12 Masteron 100mg EOD
1-12 Nolvadex 10mg

also ive beeen reading alot on joint problems with winny since it dries them out..do i have to worry about running when i excerise?should i switch over to a pedal bike when i start my winny?

**Dr. Knockboot** · 08-29-2006, 09:59 AM

The Doc also says: That proviron and anavar , would be a potent fat burning combination.

Test should always bet the base of any cycle IMO, but for solely fat burning purposes this combo works extremely well.

**caper** · 08-29-2006, 10:06 AM

or how about using clen as a replacement for the winny? that way i get the thermo affect of rasing my metabolism?

**Dr. Knockboot** · 08-29-2006, 10:13 AM

clen and winny are not substitutes...

I don't recommend Winstrol . I've just not felt or seen much benefit in comparison w/ other similar products. IMO, I would use Var in place of winny.

* on masteron * it's not that it only works on people w/ a low bf. It's just typically a precontest drug. The benefits are seen the easiest when BF is low. Mainly b/c of Masteron's "hardening" effects.

Now in reference to cardio and those that posted about Tren ace..

While tren ace is a good compound, IMO i wouldn't run it w/out a good anti-e, and in some people it has the tendency to cause respiratory difficulties (thereby making cardio more difficult). I would use tren when you're more experienced.

**Dr. Knockboot** · 08-29-2006, 10:15 AM

I myself have use 100mg prop, 100mg Masteron , 75mg Tren ace, all together.

It was an excellent cycle, but I wouldn't have touched it w/out letro.

I lost bf, and gained.

**Dr. Knockboot** · 08-29-2006, 10:23 AM

ok caper... seeing that you're a fight club type of guy. I'd definitely recommend the VAR, and a bit of proviron .

You'll get shredded.

**caper** · 08-29-2006, 10:26 AM

good insite..thanks.

trens out of the question...i dont feel the need to spend that much more money for results...i can do it by myself..i just need a booster cycle to help keep me motivated..

winny and clen are relatively cheap...you suggest clen then?

**GearIdentity** · 08-29-2006, 10:48 AM

IMO, your wasting your time with gear. You have stated that you dont care about losing any muscle mass, that is all the gear is for..keeping the muscle mass. You could easily lose bf by tweaking your diet and hitting the cardio ed on an empty stomache. If you complicate yourself now, youll never reach your ultimate goal....you will run out of resources and be very frustrated. Now, having stated that...Compounds that will help you reach fat loss are T-3, clen , ECA, DNP . DNP being the most effective and most dangerous. My vote is for T-3 and clen, you have to be very careful with the t-3 as it will burn lots of muscle if not careful. You might think you dont care about losing muscle but that might be the most important factor in your goal, the more muscle you lose the slower your metabolism will become.

**Dr. Knockboot** · 08-29-2006, 10:57 AM

Here's the problem.. if you lose too much muscle, you'll have a hard time keeping off what clen may have taken off. Many people have a bad rebound when coming off clen.

I DO NOT recommend winny... it does not get you ripped.

Read the steroid profile on here about anavar .

Clen is good, but you need to know what you are doing and how you will be doing it.

It's only effective for 2 weeks IMO.

Don't mess w/ T3 yet, it's not for kiddies.

**briansauras** · 08-29-2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by caper

ahh i see..but since i dont have your shape just yet, what if i didnt use masteron as a PCT..and used it with test prop as the primary AAS and then bring winny in later on down the cycle like you suggest..

so something like this..sorry i read in CC better than mg...you can slap me later...

so using what i ordered...i have in my hands and from my last stack that i never used: 10ml Test prop, One bottle of Masteron (never bought before so not sure how it comes but i assume 10ml), 40-60tabsX 50mg Winny, and from a old cycle 50tabsX10mg Cynomel (never even opened)

1-4 Prop 1cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
4-8 Prop 1.5cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
1-4 Masteron 1cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
4-8 Masteron 1.5cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
6-12 winny 50mg ED
6-12 Masteron 100mg EOD
1-12 Nolvadex 10mg

also ive beeen reading alot on joint problems with winny since it dries them out..do i have to worry about running when i excerise?should i switch over to a pedal bike when i start my winny?

You dont listen very well. Prop and Masteron need to be shot ED/EOD not twice a week. Your levels are going to be all over the place and you will prob get really bad sides/not get very good gains. Like I said before if you cant shoot ED/EOD use a longer ester like enth or cyp. I dont understand what you dont get about that. What do you expect to gain off of 100mg prop EW and 50mg winny ED.

You need to do some serious research.

**caper** · 08-29-2006, 11:10 AM

im going off what my supplier says...he has been doing his stuff for 5 years...

so im trying to have open ears for everyones opinions...alot of time, most of the comments are for hardcore bodybuilders...i am not one and dont plan on taking a cycle as such...im just a 23 year old with a engineering desk job that wants to lower my bf and raise my muscle density a bit

with that...i dont believe any of those overdose cycles are worth the associated risk...im looking for a boost in workout performance not 30 pounds of muscle mass yet. id rather have my balls and hair in tact than 10lbs of muscle...but thats just me. The reason i still have cynomel left is because once i got it, i felt it wasnt worth the risk to my thyroid

as far as masteron ...its half-life gives it a 2-3 day lasting property..so if i did it EOD, i dont see why its levels will be way off..

ok..i realize that cycle i posted wont work...but i did it to ask why i cant use the masteron and test together at the beginning...

**caper** · 08-29-2006, 12:06 PM

thast what im trying to do...research...you have to realize i need multiple opinions before i can make judgement calls...im not doubting anyone on this forum but AAS's topics are VERY hearsay...so sorry if i come off like a stupid kid...im actually very responsible.

hows this?

1-2 Prop 1cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
3-6 Prop 2cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
2-3 Masteron 1cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
4-8 Masteron 2cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
6-12 winny 50mg ED
1-12 Nolvadex 10mg

Would this cycle look better if i got two amps of test prop? see below

1-8 Prop 2.5cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
2-3 Masteron 1cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
4-8 Masteron 2cc EW (Split up in 2 shots per week)
6-12 winny 50mg ED
1-12 Nolvadex 10mg

so now...my biggest misunderstanding is why you have to extend out to 8 or 12 weeks? my supplier and two best friends have never done more than 6-7 weeks...and they have transformed just fine with very little side-effects..

i myself, although you will probably flame me, did a deca /test e for 6-7 weeks and it went great...i had huge gains and kept them just fine...the only problem was it just stuck out all my belly fat...and thus i downfalled and lost most of it when i took up my first job after college. (being a mechanical engineer has killed my free time, and it has only been the last couple of months where ive gotten back on my feet to hardore work out instead of just going twice a week)

***perfectbeast2001*** · 08-29-2006, 12:13 PM

Quick tip - never listen to the supplier!! They tell you what you want to hear.
Agree with Brian the layout is not good and your levels will be very unstable leading to all the sides you want to avoid. Quit with all that 2 shots a week crap. Its ED or EOD.How about

1-12 prop 100mg EOD
1-5 winny 50mg ED (not longer they are liver toxic)
6-12 masteron 100mg EOD
keep nolvadex on hand. Masteron will help with keeping estrogen related sides down so shouldnt have to worry too much with nolva weeks 6-12

Just for your info I would check the dosage on the T3 (cynomel) before you use them. I very much doubt they are 10mg and dosage is important if using these. They are normally dosed in .mcg

Drknockabout:

Here's the problem.. if you lose too much muscle, you'll have a hard time keeping off what " href="http://www.anabolicreview-research.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=106">clen. - I have never heard of this please tell me about it.

It's only effective for 2 weeks IMO. - Explain

I DO NOT recommend winny - Explain

***perfectbeast2001*** · 08-29-2006, 12:18 PM

so now...my biggest misunderstanding is why you have to extend out to 8 or 12 weeks? my supplier and two best friends have never done more than 6-7 weeks...and they have transformed just fine with very little side-effects.. - you could cut the cycle length to 8 weeks but you would probably find you could have been making some gains still so why cut it short. Many people on this board suggest short cycles but the dosages are WAY higher than used here. The idea is to totally saturate the receptors with a large ammount of gear quickly then stop and allow body to recuperate.