Letro question

[The_Canibal]

is letro no good for pct? I've read that it interacts with nolva..if I up the nolva or the letro...can it still be used?

[boostedevo8]

double post

[boostedevo8]

with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness,

[boostedevo8]

blah sorry for the double post.......but Aromasin works very well with nolva and its affects arent reduced by the AI

[boostedevo8]

heres a little something i foung...hope it helps




by Anthony Roberts -- Aromasin (Exemestane) is one of those weird compounds that nobody really knows what to do with. What we generally hear about it makes it very uninteresting…It’s a third generation Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) just like Arimidex (Anastrozole) and Femera (Letrozole ). Both of those two drugs are very efficient at stopping the conversion of androgens into estrogen, and since we have them, why bother with Aromasin? It’s a little harder to get than the other two commonly used aromatase inhibitors, because it’s not in high demand, and there’s never been a readily apparent advantage to using it. And I mean…lets face it: It’s awkward-sounding. Aromasin doesn’t have much of a ring to it, and exemestane is even worse. Arimidex has a bunch of cool abbreviations ("A-dex" or just ‘dex) and even Letrozole is just "Letro" to most people. Where’s the cool nickname for Aromasin/exemestane? A-Sin? E-Stane? It just doesn’t work. It’s the black sheep of AIs. And why do we even need it when we have Letrozole, which is by far the most efficient AI for stopping aromatization (the process by which your body converts testosterone into estrogen)? Letro can reduce estrogen levels by 98% or greater; clinically a dose as low as 100mcgs has been shown to provide maximum aromatase inhibition (2)! So why would we need any other AIs? Well, first of all, estrogen is necessary for healthy joints (3) as well as a healthy immune system (4). So getting rid of 98% of the estrogen in your body for an extended period of time may not be the best of ideas. This may be useful on an extreme cutting cycle, leading up to a bodybuilding contest, or if you are particularly prone to gyno, but certainly can’t be used safely for extended periods of time without compromising your joints and immune system.



So that leaves us with Arimidex, which isn’t as potent as Letrozole, but at .5mgs/day will still get rid of around half (50%) of the estrogen in your body. Problem solved, right? Use Arimidex on your typical cycles, and if you are very prone to gyno or are getting ready for a contest, use Letro.

I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.


This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.


Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?


To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).



Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our



.......sorry for all the blah blah blah but i was doing some research in regards to the thread because i had the same question too

[JohnboyF]

actually u can use LEtro and Nolva together.. BINO had a post... i will see if i can find it.

[boostedevo8]

i dont think letro affects clomid though.....i might be wrong though.......

[fLgAtOr]

The thing is Letro is soo strong that even if nolva did reduce the effectiveness of it, it would have a minimal effect on actual estro levels.

Letro just tends to be a very slow acting AI (slow to build up, etc) so it makes me a little nervous using it in PCT. Its not like prop or enanthate where we have the half life down to a science.

EDIT*
It's certainly effective though, from what I've read from users during PCT and off cycle as well.

[The_Canibal]

but if used during cycle....it will have enough time to build up good blood values for pct???

[The_Canibal]

heres a little something i foung...hope it helps




by Anthony Roberts -- Aromasin (Exemestane) is one of those weird compounds that nobody really knows what to do with. What we generally hear about it makes it very uninteresting…It’s a third generation Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) just like Arimidex (Anastrozole) and Femera (Letrozole ). Both of those two drugs are very efficient at stopping the conversion of androgens into estrogen, and since we have them, why bother with Aromasin? It’s a little harder to get than the other two commonly used aromatase inhibitors, because it’s not in high demand, and there’s never been a readily apparent advantage to using it. And I mean…lets face it: It’s awkward-sounding. Aromasin doesn’t have much of a ring to it, and exemestane is even worse. Arimidex has a bunch of cool abbreviations ("A-dex" or just ‘dex) and even Letrozole is just "Letro" to most people. Where’s the cool nickname for Aromasin/exemestane? A-Sin? E-Stane? It just doesn’t work. It’s the black sheep of AIs. And why do we even need it when we have Letrozole, which is by far the most efficient AI for stopping aromatization (the process by which your body converts testosterone into estrogen)? Letro can reduce estrogen levels by 98% or greater; clinically a dose as low as 100mcgs has been shown to provide maximum aromatase inhibition (2)! So why would we need any other AIs? Well, first of all, estrogen is necessary for healthy joints (3) as well as a healthy immune system (4). So getting rid of 98% of the estrogen in your body for an extended period of time may not be the best of ideas. This may be useful on an extreme cutting cycle, leading up to a bodybuilding contest, or if you are particularly prone to gyno, but certainly can’t be used safely for extended periods of time without compromising your joints and immune system.



So that leaves us with Arimidex, which isn’t as potent as Letrozole, but at .5mgs/day will still get rid of around half (50%) of the estrogen in your body. Problem solved, right? Use Arimidex on your typical cycles, and if you are very prone to gyno or are getting ready for a contest, use Letro.

I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.


This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.


Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?


To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).



Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our



.......sorry for all the blah blah blah but i was doing some research in regards to the thread because i had the same question too

i can't seem to find where he points out that nolva interacts with letro..maybe i'm fu**in' blind...

[fLgAtOr]

but if used during cycle....it will have enough time to build up good blood values for pct???

Absolutely. Just keep nolva onhand even after you stop the Letro, just incase you notice any rebound.

Letro is just wierd stuff...but a damn lifesaver for me...

[fLgAtOr]

i can't seem to find where he points out that nolva interacts with letro..maybe i'm fu**in' blind...

Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.

EDIT*
BTW, that was cut and pasted just in case no one noticed.

[The_Canibal]

so i could up the nolva to let's say 30mg's /day during pct..and i'll be fine...estrogen rebound seems to be quite a nasty problem...

[The_Canibal]

here's a primary pct...(it will constantly be updated and improved)
week 1-2 letro 0.5 mgs
week 1-2 HCG 500 UI /day
week 1-2 nolva 30mg/day,2-4 20mg, 4-6 10mg
week 2-4 100mg clomid,4-6 50mg

insulin and clen will also be used...didn't figure out how so far

[getpaid]

Not trying to jack a thread but I just got some letro about a week ago and I have been taking 2 squirts a day, my question is that going to hinder any of my gains?

[The_Canibal]

Not trying to jack a thread but I just got some letro about a week ago and I have been taking 2 squirts a day, my question is that going to hinder any of my gains?

well you are hijacking...I think it's a valuable adition to your cycle..to keep bloat to a minimum and gyno as well

[boostedevo8]

ahh i had it backwards...i thought the letro messed with the nolva.....i guess its the other way around.........

by the way the bottom of the third paragraph states that the nolva messes with the letro canibal

[SNUKA]

it should not hinder you gains if it did i would rather have a few less pounds than a pair of b-cups. Canibal i heard you can get estrogen rebound off the letro so you have to continue using another compound like aromasin to ease into things. so if you switch the letro with aromasin it looks like you will have a great pct

[The_Canibal]

he suggests using Aromasin for pct...

this is still open for debate...

[boostedevo8]

i second what snuka said......

[vitor]

No other AI will increase your natty testosterone levels as effectively as letro. I use letro between, and on cycles, greate stuff!

Letro+nolva is fine. Even if they decrease the effectivness of eachother somewhat, they will still be more effective for eliminating estrogen than any other combo.

[C_Bino]

No other AI will increase your natty testosterone levels as effectively as letro. I use letro between, and on cycles, greate stuff!

Letro+nolva is fine. Even if they decrease the effectivness of eachother somewhat, they will still be more effective for eliminating estrogen than any other combo.

Yup, why not use them together? When someone first said to me "oh no you cant use them together" I ask why...people's responses "nolva lowers the blood plasma concentrations of letro." My response to that...WHO CARES?

Really who cares, ya so it reduces it a bit, ok so I will take .5mg instead of .25. Pretty simple solution if you ask me, there are no adverse effects of takin them together, so you may need to take a little more, ok pretty easy to solve that problem wouldnt you say?

Also like Faiz said, I have posted studies before in medical trials were both tomxifen and femara were co-administered with no drop in blood plasma levels. Just have to time them correctly, I would say take letro at night and nolva in the morning.

[JohnboyF]

Yup, why not use them together? When someone first said to me "oh no you cant use them together" I ask why...people's responses "nolva lowers the blood plasma concentrations of letro." My response to that...WHO CARES?

Really who cares, ya so it reduces it a bit, ok so I will take .5mg instead of .25. Pretty simple solution if you ask me, there are no adverse effects of takin them together, so you may need to take a little more, ok pretty easy to solve that problem wouldnt you say?

Also like Faiz said, I have posted studies before in medical trials were both tomxifen and femara were co-administered with no drop in blood plasma levels. Just have to time them correctly, I would say take letro at night and nolva in the morning.

I was about to IM you this link "Get in there!"

[guest589745]

Yup, why not use them together? When someone first said to me "oh no you cant use them together" I ask why...people's responses "nolva lowers the blood plasma concentrations of letro." My response to that...WHO CARES?

Really who cares, ya so it reduces it a bit, ok so I will take .5mg instead of .25. Pretty simple solution if you ask me, there are no adverse effects of takin them together, so you may need to take a little more, ok pretty easy to solve that problem wouldnt you say?

Also like Faiz said, I have posted studies before in medical trials were both tomxifen and femara were co-administered with no drop in blood plasma levels. Just have to time them correctly, I would say take letro at night and nolva in the morning.

Interesting, I should have came to that conclusion myself. Good point, just take moer and time them differently. Thanks.

[boostedevo8]

good stuff....

[The_Canibal]

bottom line: letro kicks ass....

thx for the feedback guys

[Knockout_Power]

Does this sound right? On a regular Test E/Dbol cycle, Lion said to use letro starting a week before you would load with Dbol and throughout the cycle to control Gyno and then run Nolva/Clomid as PCT. I cant see why he would give that advice if it wasent pertinent.
Im hoping to start my first cycle soon and this is what I have ordered.

[fLgAtOr]

Does this sound right? On a regular Test E/Dbol cycle, Lion said to use letro starting a week before you would load with Dbol and throughout the cycle to control Gyno and then run Nolva/Clomid as PCT. I cant see why he would give that advice if it wasent pertinent.
Im hoping to start my first cycle soon and this is what I have ordered.

Well there are many different ideas on PCT...many of which are good. Nolva/clomid are one of them.

In the future, start your own thread and you will get better responses.

[frank12391]

According to my nurses prescription medication guide, Femera (letro) is listed as an interaction with Nolvadex and should not be combined, however it's only a basic guide.

[lifterjaydawg]

bottom line: letro kicks ass....

thx for the feedback guys

letro works great. Great for gyno.

[fLgAtOr]

bottom line: letro kicks ass....

thx for the feedback guys

It is my gyno preventing messiah.

BTW, I'll keep you posted in a couple weeks about an Aromasin /HCG /Novla PCT bro. Always been a Clomid/Nolva/Arimidex PCT so far, and I know you were curious about the aromasin.