Keeping Gains

**lanky** · 01-16-2007, 08:27 PM

alright guys im lookin to get some legitimate information here from personal experiences or studies that have been published if there even are any

ive read in more places than one that:

after a cycle and proper pct are completed, that even with a rigorous diet/training regimine over time if anabolics are not in continuous use the gains made while on the cycle will eventually be lost

also it seems that its almost always the case that people do not just do one cycle and call it quits

i understand that it is hard to go back to training without aas after having done a cycle because the strength is nowhere near comparable to while on, alongside many other things including libido depending on what steroids are run

in terms of stats im around 200lbs at about 10% bf, ive been as high as 230 at about 15% but i really want to be at like 230-235lbs between 8-10% bf, i know i will not stop training untill my body doesn't physically allow me to and in many years i will be able 2 reach my goals, i also know that i would have the will power to run only one or two cycles if i could put on 20lbs and keep it

so my question to you guys is if continued aas use is not in the cards, is it even worth it to run one or two cycles?can the gains be kept over time if training is a daily activity and time off lasts for no more than two weeks at a time?

i appreciate any and all feedback

**shrpskn** · 01-16-2007, 08:42 PM

Yes, gains can be kept with having only ran one or two cycles in your life.

You just have to be sure to properly "fuel" the body to maintain what gains that you've made. It's kinda like trying to run a high performance vehicle with low grade fuel...the vehicle isn't going to run to it's potential.

IMO, proper nutrition is the most important factor in making and sustaining any gains, whether achieved with the use of anabolics or not.

**nephilim666** · 01-16-2007, 08:50 PM

well put , i 2nd that, as long as ur eating enuf for ur body to not have to break down muscle for fuel ,its not going to, our bodies like to maintain weight.

**stupidhippo** · 01-16-2007, 11:10 PM

it depends what size u are and what kind of size can ur body maintain naturally.. Lets say with a certain diet and training regime u can get to 230 with a cetain BF% and u do everything to get past but seem to be stuck.. then u use gear and do a few cycles and then u quit - IMO u will eventually slide back to where u were.. not in a month or two but slowly and steadily..

**KAEW44** · 01-16-2007, 11:32 PM

In my gym many people use AAS as a 'cosmetic' usage, basically paying money for bigger muscles and thats why the prices are jacked up so high for low quality juice.
These same people start a cycle, during the cycle train a little harder and eat better and gain 10-15pounds of water mainly during the cycle which consists of like 10 substances (Overkill?) and then PCT is basically two shots of HCG -Pregnyl only!!
So the guys gain some water and feel they got their money's worth! Then right before PCT they are at their peak physical shape from that cycle! And thats when they go on vacation to the beach to show off their newly gained acne and hair covered bodies! And it is also exatly the point where they stop training and eating right and pretty much lose everything in about 2-3 weeks!!

So putting that example aside i just wanted to bring awareness that there were people using AAS this way!
However there are people who seriously train all year around, and thats why one of the required advisory points are to be of an older age and also to be a serious lifter/builder before you start a cycle, that is because it wont matter wether you are on cycle or off cycle or whatever you will still be training hard and eating right and so you will keep your gains.

One thing i have been suggesting to people and i havent see anyone report doing yet is to use a high quality creatine product in the last weeks of your cycle before PCT and cycle that creatine all the way even months past PCT.
Even if the gains from it are not solid, i still think creatine does wonders for power and strength and that will keep you motivated to lift harder and work harder even after the cycle.

**donberry427** · 01-17-2007, 09:34 AM

Creatine...lol talk about water weight

**boostedevo8** · 01-17-2007, 09:54 AM

blah creatine makes me look like a blow fiish

**lanky** · 01-17-2007, 10:45 AM

shrpskn - i agree with you completely about the diet aspect and i definatley have that down

stupidhippo - so you believe there is a genetic potential for everybody and if you have reached that without aas there is no point in cycling because you're body cant maintain the weight?

kaew44 - i think the creatine idea is a great one and definatley makes sense and for you guys who say it makes you bloat check out an esterified version of creatine, the monohydrate will make nebody bloat but i have tried multiple types of creatine ethyl ester and did not bloat at all from it

any other monitors or vets out there got input?

**donberry427** · 01-17-2007, 10:50 AM

[QUOTE=lanky]
stupidhippo - so you believe there is a genetic potential for everybody and if you have reached that without aas there is no point in cycling because you're body cant maintain the weight?
QUOTE]

I think I can handle this one... if you reach your genetic limit and begin to cycle then yes you will loose your muscle gains eventually. UNLESS, you cycle again, and again, and again... Why do you think the guys who are giant do 2 grams plus a week? becuase they are looking for that little bit more of gain and that 500mg wouldnt do much but mabey keep what they have.

**lanky** · 01-17-2007, 10:52 AM

so how do you know if you have reached your genetic potential?

**lanky** · 01-17-2007, 10:57 AM

i mean if what you're saying is true and there is only so much that your body can hold i guess one way to find out would be to run a few cycles and get to where i want to be, and then stop and c how much of the gains i lose, but id rather burn my money or spend it on something that wont dissapear than find out that way

**fLgAtOr** · 01-17-2007, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by lanky

so how do you know if you have reached your genetic potential?

You're 5'8", 300lbs, and 2% bf??????

Seriously, I don't believe most have reached their genetic potential (not that I think that's a bad thing,IMO). Most that do 1 or 2 cycles, usually return to training/eating the way they did before they cycled. Unfortunatly, you can't do that and (as others have said) you have to fuel and train this "mass monster" that you created with your one cycle.

It is also age dependant...As you get older and more experienced, it will become more and more difficult to put on muscle without adding bf.

**donberry427** · 01-17-2007, 11:00 AM

OK see here's the problem...

1) Yes AAS will build muscle. But isnt going to be effecient if your base isnt up to par.
2) There is no need to "experiment" with AAS if you can gain plenty of LBM with eating correctly and lifting properly.
3) If your base is say 5'8 200 when you start you'll eventually be 200lbs again if you go by this principle. So having a larger base you will be a larger person "if" you were to loose mass after a cycle.

**fLgAtOr** · 01-17-2007, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by donberry427

OK see here's the problem...

1) Yes AAS will build muscle. But isnt going to be effecient if your base isnt up to par.
2) There is no need to "experiment" with AAS if you can gain plenty of LBM with eating correctly and lifting properly.
3) If your base is say 5'8 200 when you start you'll eventually be 200lbs again if you go by this principle. So having a larger base you will be a larger person "if" you were to loose mass after a cycle.

Yes and no.

I will never again be 160lbs (@6'3")..ever. No matter how much I starve myself, no matter how much clen I use, I will NEVER get back down to that weight. Yes, some of it was natural training, some of it was not...But I have forever changed my body structure.

I think this is in some way related to why people who use a Dbol only cycle, gain 20 lbs, and keep most of it...Some of that, IMO is going to be permanent.

**lanky** · 01-17-2007, 11:10 AM

well id say at a little over 6' 230lbs 15% bf thats a pretty decent base, but what i dont want to happen is to run a cycle or two and get up to say 250 and then just slowly sliddddde back down to 230 over a couple of years, buttt if i did drop back down to 230 and i was at a much lower body fat than that would be another story

**donberry427** · 01-17-2007, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by fLgAtOr

Yes and no.

I will never again be 160lbs (@6'3")..ever. No matter how much I starve myself, no matter how much clen I use, I will NEVER get back down to that weight. Yes, some of it was natural training, some of it was not...But I have forever changed my body structure.

I think this is in some way related to why people who use a Dbol only cycle, gain 20 lbs, and keep most of it...Some of that, IMO is going to be permanent.

True, I wasnt basically saying it was all water weight. you have produced new muscle fibers which are hard to get rid of, if not impossible....

Take what i've said with a grain of salt.

**fLgAtOr** · 01-17-2007, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by lanky

well id say at a little over 6' 230lbs 15% bf thats a pretty decent base, but what i dont want to happen is to run a cycle or two and get up to say 250 and then just slowly sliddddde back down to 230 over a couple of years, buttt if i did drop back down to 230 and i was at a much lower body fat than that would be another story

I think if you trained hard, eat right, you could maintain that (assuming 250 was AFTER pct).

Another factor to remember, is that we all encounter bullshit in our lives..

Hell I had "Satan's Idea of Strep Throat" for like a month and couldn't eat...Lost like 20-25 lbs. It was rough, but shit happens.

**donberry427** · 01-17-2007, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by lanky

well id say at a little over 6' 230lbs 15% bf thats a pretty decent base, but what i dont want to happen is to run a cycle or two and get up to say 250 and then just slowly sliddddde back down to 230 over a couple of years, buttt if i did drop back down to 230 and i was at a much lower body fat than that would be another story

Again the only way you would "slide down" is if you stopped working out and ate horribly...but then again you'd end up being a fat ass.

Just research more about AAS and learn your body and how to workout properly to build mass...Also you MUST EAT

**BITTAPART2** · 01-17-2007, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by donberry427

True, I wasnt basically saying it was all water weight. you have produced new muscle fibers which are hard to get rid of, if not impossible....

Take what i've said with a grain of salt.

muscle hyperplasia and hypertrophy are two very different things, use of AAS has not been shown much to produce new fibers only grow the existing fibers. IGF-1 etc can cause hyperplasia.

also flgator put it best, he has grown so much and his body has now become used to holding that weight it will be hard if not imposible for him to achieve his former weight. if you read anything from doggcrap his philosophy is to build himself into a freakin beast over 300lbs and get his body used to holding this weight so he is essentially setting himslef up for his later years to be able to hold 250lbs or so...pretty good for someone who was very skinny (cant remember how small but something like 140lbs or so) going on to be 300+ lbs. our bodies dont want to be 300 lbs our bodies will fight this weight as much as it can via cortisol etc.

**fLgAtOr** · 01-17-2007, 11:48 AM

Well, testosterone has been shown to increase sattelite cell production indirectly to a small degree.

So, I believe that continued steroid usage increases new muscle cell growth (although you're right, the majority is hypertrophy).

**fLgAtOr** · 01-17-2007, 11:50 AM

Oh...just to add and extra element to the discussion:

What about sports during puberty influencing your body type now that you're using?

Gotta run, but I think this is relevant, considering the kinds of hormones at that age.

**donberry427** · 01-17-2007, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by BITTAPART2

muscle hyperplasia and hypertrophy are two very different things, use of AAS has not been shown much to produce new fibers only grow the existing fibers. IGF-1 etc can cause hyperplasia.

also flgator put it best, he has grown so much and his body has now become used to holding that weight it will be hard if not imposible for him to achieve his former weight. if you read anything from doggcrap his philosophy is to build himself into a freakin beast over 300lbs and get his body used to holding this weight so he is essentially setting himslef up for his later years to be able to hold 250lbs or so...pretty good for someone who was very skinny (cant remember how small but something like 140lbs or so) going on to be 300+ lbs. our bodies dont want to be 300 lbs our bodies will fight this weight as much as it can via cortisol etc.

Thanks for clairifing my thoughts. I refered to the muscles hypertrophy in response to AAS as "water weight"... Yes I was ignorant in explaining my thoughts but I'm learning more vocab as I go...Thanks for clearing up my mix up.

**donberry427** · 01-17-2007, 12:27 PM

In this discussion I've now grown to like IGF... And now I begin to study...............

**lanky** · 01-17-2007, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by donberry427

Again the only way you would "slide down" is if you stopped working out and ate horribly...but then again you'd end up being a fat ass.

Just research more about AAS and learn your body and how to workout properly to build mass...Also you MUST EAT

im on top of the training/diet, but ive read that even in doing this gains will be lost so im looking for more responses

**lanky** · 01-17-2007, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by BITTAPART2

muscle hyperplasia and hypertrophy are two very different things, use of AAS has not been shown much to produce new fibers only grow the existing fibers. IGF-1 etc can cause hyperplasia.

also flgator put it best, he has grown so much and his body has now become used to holding that weight it will be hard if not imposible for him to achieve his former weight. if you read anything from doggcrap his philosophy is to build himself into a freakin beast over 300lbs and get his body used to holding this weight so he is essentially setting himslef up for his later years to be able to hold 250lbs or so...pretty good for someone who was very skinny (cant remember how small but something like 140lbs or so) going on to be 300+ lbs. our bodies dont want to be 300 lbs our bodies will fight this weight as much as it can via cortisol etc.

that makes a lot of sense and is definatley th type of info im looking for, so say i wanted to end up around 235, what do you think would be a sufficient weight that i should aim for and also how long would i have to try and maintain that weight as sort of a prime for my body to learn to hold the weight?

**Wizeguy** · 01-17-2007, 01:41 PM

The body is always looking for homoeostatis, its most natural comfortable state. Everyone can retain differently, I believe. For me, I retain a good amount for awhile. But after Pct and then some time after wards i can feel, see my body wanting to return to that natural state it was before. At this point increaseing calories only puts on shit weight for me. increaseing workout volume or intensity only makes me overtrain. You have to find a balance after PCT and fight like hell to keep your gains. I Believe that If I didnt cycle again then eventually, slowly, my body will return to its state before AAS use. Its a rollercoaster ride that sometimes I wonder if its all worth it. For now it is, but later in life, I'm going to get tired of the battle.
Look at the retired pros, They havnt retained very much from thier competetive days. Its just reality.

**lanky** · 01-18-2007, 09:22 AM

wizeguy - this is the sort of thing that i have heard multiple times

are there other guys out there who feel the same way>?

**stupidhippo** · 01-18-2007, 09:54 AM

i agree with wizeguy.. it sure seems like that to me.

**mma_badboy** · 01-18-2007, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by lanky

im on top of the training/diet, but ive read that even in doing this gains will be lost so im looking for more responses

i think you can keep the gains you've made if you were under your natural potential and anything after it will be lost.

**stupidhippo** · 01-18-2007, 01:57 PM

also u can alter ur current "natural potential" with diet and training except there are limits to that too... for example: most ppl could always fine tune their diet and training (who knows what exactly is optimal) but basically this takes u only so far... but still i think naturally not many ppl would bench over 450 lbs (without shirts=.. but ofcourse there might b
exceptions..

**lanky** · 01-18-2007, 04:30 PM

hummmm so steroids r sort of a money pit if you've reached your natural potential ehhh thats unfortunate

i guesss im just gonna have to run a couple cycles to see exactly what my potential is

**Wizeguy** · 01-18-2007, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by lanky

hummmm so steroids r sort of a money pit if you've reached your natural potential ehhh thats unfortunate

i guesss im just gonna have to run a couple cycles to see exactly what my potential is

Sometimes you just have to find out for yourself what these substances can do. Some people grow like weeds and others dont gain a whole lot. I'm kind of in between, I dont grow like a weed but I do make some slow steady gains. But Like I said before, Its a battle keeping what I gained. I believe eveyones genetics are different and thier bodies ability to assimilate AAS. IMO, the pros have great genetics to start with, but, and this just my opinion, they have a far greater ability to assimilate AAS more efficiently and productivly then most of us. If this wasnt the case then we could follow a pros nutrition program, weight training regimen and AAS protocol and we should like very similar........I wish!!
If your ready, give it a shot and decide for your self if its worth it or not.
I just added up my AAS use for the year, I get my stuff through an HRT clinic which is a bit more money. I did 2 cycles with GH and PCT, it came out to about 6 chickens. Thats alot of money. My strength had gone up and over that time have put on about 18 lbs. Probably not worth what I spent.