injection location

[tide dog]

I was talking to a friend who said you lose up tp 30% of the effects of AS when you inject in your ass. He said its better to inject in the shoulder. Is this fact or opinion?

[KeyMastur]

you have plenty of spots to inject - i prefer my quads b/c i feel like i'm gettin bigger just by doin it in there.

check out www.spotinjections.com

[pumpseeker]

My opinion- it's a rumor. The juice gets in the same no matter where it goes in. Whether or not you keep your gains is up to you. RESEARCH will help.

[DecaDick]

Yeah, Ive heard conflicting results about spot injections vs. regular injections (ie ass) but from what I read there hasn't been any scientific research that proves other wise ... For example, most people claim that spot injecting with Winstrol will lead to bigger muscle development where you inject ... But there hasn't been any proof ... Ahhh I still sopt inject just due to the fact that I, like Keymastur feel like I'm getting bigger just by shooting there ...

[Rickson]

Actually most of what I have read is the exact opposite of that info. I will try to find the studies but I think uptake from the glutes is the highest(not significantly). Now irritation from site injections is a totally different subject.

[Rickson]

This study mentions in passing.

Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nandrolone esters in oil vehicle: effects of ester, injection site and injection volume.

J Pharmacol Exp Ther 1997 Apr;281(1):93-102 (ISSN: 0022-3565)

Minto CF; Howe C; Wishart S; Conway AJ; Handelsman DJ [Find other articles with these Authors]
Department of Anaesthesia and Pain Management, Royal North Shore Hospital, University of Sydney, Australia.

We studied healthy men who underwent blood sampling for plasma nandrolone, testosterone and inhibin measurements before and for 32 days after a single i.m. injection of 100 mg of nandrolone ester in arachis oil. Twenty-three men were randomized into groups receiving nandrolone phenylpropionate (group 1, n = 7) or nandrolone decanoate (group 2, n = 6) injected into the gluteal muscle in 4 ml of arachis oil vehicle or nandrolone decanoate in 1 ml of arachis oil vehicle injected into either the gluteal (group 3, n = 5) or deltoid (group 4, n = 5) muscles. Plasma nandrolone, testosterone and inhibin concentrations were analyzed by a mixed-effects indirect response model. Plasma nandrolone concentrations were influenced (P < .001) by different esters and injection sites, with higher and earlier peaks with the phenylpropionate ester, compared with the decanoate ester. After nandrolone decanoate injection, the highest bioavailability and peak nandrolone levels were observed with the 1-ml gluteal injection. Plasma testosterone concentrations were also influenced (P < .001) by the ester and injection site, with the most rapid, but briefest, suppression being due to the phenylpropionate ester, whereas the most sustained suppression was achieved with the 1-ml gluteal injection. Plasma inhibin concentrations were also significantly influenced by injection volume and site, with the lowest nadir occurring after the nandrolone decanoate 1-ml gluteal injection. Thus, the bioavailability and physiological effects of a nandrolone ester in an oil vehicle are greatest when the ester is injected in a small (1 ml vs. 4 ml) volume and into the gluteal vs. deltoid muscle. We conclude that the side-chain ester and the injection site and volume influence the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nandrolone esters in an oil vehicle in men.

[hammerhead]

This offers no theory as to an explaination of the data nor does it document the degree of signifigance of the injection site results variations. In theory the density of the muscle being injected and the amount of stress the muscle endures throughout the life of the absorption of the streroids may effect the rate of absorption.

I can only agree to the following conclusion: softer muscles may provide a faster absorption of oil-based steroid esters.

[sp33dg33k]

Heres a read my bro Darko from RC dug up.

Steroids : The New Rules
Bringing the science of steroid use into the 21st century
by Brock Strasser



I have some news for you that should change the way you look at and subsequently use and cycle anabolic steroids. For the longest time, we’ve developed and based our cycling theories on the limited pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic data that we’ve extrapolated from primarily murine (mice) and rat models. I don’t have to tell you that the effects a steroid has on a rodent probably aren’t homologous to the effects that a steroid will have on a human. Sure, they run around their cages flexing in the mirror all the time and tend to be more popular with all the lady mice, but despite this similarity with humans, there are differences.

After all, in rodents, steroids like Primobolan (methenolone esters) are better mass builders than Testosterone . Try telling any bodybuilder he should give up his DepoTest for Primobolan and at the very least, you’ll get laughed at. The rest of the "data" we’ve used comes from anecdotal reports overheard in the gym and on internet message boards. This isn’t exactly the most reliable data either, considering some people have hidden agendas (e.g. they’re selling a particular steroid) or they aren’t entirely forthcoming regarding what they used, when they used, and how much. And I haven’t even mentioned the "fudge factor" and imaginary gains claimed by some so they won’t appear to be slackers in the gym.

Because of this, perhaps more so than in any other therapeutic area in medicine, we don’t know a whole lot about steroids and how they interact with the human body. I’m going to change all that. I’ve located a mind-expanding study conducted on humans using two anabolic steroids , nandrolone phenylpropionate and nandrolone decanoate. My article here, based entirely on this study, is going to shatter some misconceptions regarding anabolic steroids. Sit back and prepare to be educated.


HPTA Suppression Is Imminent

Anyone who’s used anabolic steroids for any length of time will easily observe that when they discontinue using, they invariably "crash." That is to say, their body is producing next to zero endogenous androgens. This can lead to significant loss of muscle gain, loss of strength gains, lethargy, depression and a whole host of other disorders. Of course, drugs like HCG , HMG, clomiphene and similar gonadotrophics can help to ameliorate such symptoms, but these aren’t 100% cure-alls. The success or failure of such secondary drug use varies considerably between individuals.

In a quest to minimize HPTA insult, my friend and Biotest developmental team partner, Bill Roberts, came up with an innovative speculation: If you limit your use of anabolic steroids to short-acting compounds and don’t exceed two weeks of continual usage without a four week period of no usage, you might not depress endogenous androgen levels too much, if at all. This is the now famous "two on/four off" protocol.

I have the utmost respect for Bill and he possesses more knowledge about drugs than I ever will, but on this one topic, I don’t agree with him. The study I just reviewed utilized ten healthy male volunteers who were randomized to receive either the phenylpropionate or decanoate ester of nandrolone via intramuscular, oily depo injection. A single injection of only 100 mg of nandrolone phenylpropionate caused almost complete suppression of endogenous Testosterone by day three and lasted until around day eight.

Endogenous levels of Testosterone didn’t return to baseline levels for almost fifteen days, while the same type of injection with nandrolone decanoate caused almost complete inhibition of endogenous by day four. Endogenous levels of Testosterone didn’t return to baseline levels for greater than twenty days! All this from a single, 100-mg injection of nandrolone!

This tells me that no matter what you do, whether it’s a short lasting ester or a long lasting ester, you’ll end up totally shutting down your body’s ability to make androgens for at least two to three weeks. Since nobody (well, at least nobody male) uses only 100 mg of nandrolone per week, it’s reasonable to conclude that the suppression caused by 500mg of an esterified anabolic per week (an average dose) would be much greater than two to three weeks. This study didn’t deal with fast acting orals like stanozolol and oxandrolone, but there’s no reason to think that these won’t cause HPTA insult as well.

So what does this mean? To me, it means that HPTA insult is inevitable and should be planned for accordingly in your cycle. That is to say, you should plan on crashing for a few weeks post-cycle no matter what. Because of this, you’re going to want to extend and "beef up" your cycle so that you overshoot your final goal.

Remember, you’re going to crash and lose some of your gains. So if you want to gain "X" pounds of muscle, shoot for "X+Y" pounds of muscle and accept that within two to six weeks after the cycle, you’ll end up losing most of the "Y" portion.


Volume and Concentration

Steroids come in all shapes and sizes. In other words, you can find nandrolone (or Testosterone or boldenone ) esters in 25 mg/ml, 50 mg/ml, 100 mg/ml, 200 mg/ml and so forth. Is a 400 mg injection using two milliliters of a 200 mg/ml oily solution the same as using four milliliters of a 100 mg/ml solution? After all, the net amount is still 400 mg, right? Unfortunately, this isn’t the case.

Steroid concentration in the solution greatly affects the dynamics and kinetics. In this study, some of the men received a 100 mg/ml injection of nandrolone decanoate and other men received a 100 mg injection using a 25 mg/ml solution (which means they received four milliliters, of course). Those that received the 100 mg/ml injection reached significantly higher (between 30% and 50%) plasma levels of nandrolone than those who got 100 mg via the 25 mg/ml solution. To top it off, the 100 mg/ml group’s plasma nandrolone level stayed elevated for a little bit longer; however, the length of suppression of endogenous Testosterone was almost identical.

What does this tell us? It tells us that if we want to maximize plasma levels of hormone (and thereby, maximize gains in lean muscle) we want to opt for the most concentrated version of whatever steroid(s) we decide we’re going to use. If we’re using Testosterone, we surely want to use a 200mg/ml enanthate over something like 100mg enanthate. If we’re using nandrolone, we want to use Ttokkyo’s 300mg/ml stuff over 50mg/ml or 100mg/ml nandrolone decanoate made by others.


Injections Sites

Another thing that superficially seems trivial but makes a huge difference in plasma steroid concentrations is where you inject. That’s right, this seems utterly trivial but this study concluded that gluteal injections yielded far superior plasma levels as opposed to injections in the deltoid.

Of all the locations that nandrolone injections were given in this study (100 mg/ml x 1 ml in the glutes, 25 mg/ml x 4 ml in the glutes and 100 mg/ml x 1 ml in the deltoid), the deltoid injections yielded the lowest plasma levels of nandrolone by a huge factor, with peak concentrations being 50% lower than the 100 mg/ml gluteal injection and around 10% lower than the 100 mg/ml x 4ml gluteal injection. Lesson learned here: Only inject in the glutes for maximal steroidal efficacy.


Short Esters Are Better Esters

Perhaps the most important thing I learned in reviewing this study is that short-chain esters (steroids of shorter half life) yield a much higher plasma concentration of steroid than steroids of longer side chain esters. In this study, a single 100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone phenylpropionate caused a peak plasma concentration of almost double that of the 100 mg/ml x 1 ml intragluteal injection of nandrolone decanoate. This level remained increased for almost seven days, too. By fourteen days, even though the nandrolone decanoate ester demonstrated a much higher plasma level than the nandrolone phenylpropionate level, the net amount of both was so low as to be ineffective.

This tells me that the effects I can see from using 500 mg of Testosterone enanthate per week probably won’t be the same as using 500 mg of Testosterone propionate or even Testosterone suspension per week. I’m going to see better results with the propionate and even better results with the suspension. Sure, I may need to inject the propionate and suspension more often, but in the long run it’ll pay off for me. (Not that I’d use steroids , of course. No sir, not me. They’re illegal!)


Conclusions

To recap everything mentioned here in this article, remember the following:

1) HPTA suppression is virtually inevitable. Even a single 100mg injection of nandrolone will cause full suppression for almost a week and you won’t return to a normal HPTA for at least two weeks. Plan your cycle accordingly and overshoot your goals knowing you’ll lose something.

2) Injection volume and concentration are important. When available, opt for the highest concentration on a mg/ml basis.

3) Injection site is important. The best place for maximal plasma levels seems to be the glutes.

4) Side chain ester length is probably the single most important factor in influencing plasma levels. The shorter the ester (and the half life) the better. You may have to inject more often, but in the long run it’ll be worth it.

There you go, the new "rules" of steroid use. Put them to use wisely!


Reference

The Journal of Pharmacology And Experimental Therapeutics, Vol 281, No. 1; 93-102, 1997.

[TNT]

As I read the original question, the issue is not general site injections versus spot injections, but whether a glute injection is any more effective than a delt injection (or vice versa).

And the answer is no. Providing you use the correct length needle (1-1/2" for glutes, 1" for delts or quads), you are still injecting into deep muscle (hence the term intramuscular).

Go with whichever is more comfortable for you, although I usually recommend that all self-injections be in the quad - you can use both hands, aspirate better, and have more control of the injection angle.

[Rickson]

I have to admit TNT you had me laughing on that one. I am picturing some poor guy who just wants to know if it is ok to shoot in his glutes sifting through study data trying to figure out what the hell everyone is talking about. Not saying you would have any trouble Tide Dog I just mean you can't ask a simple question and get a simple answer.

[Sicilian30]

TNT as always you are right on bro. I agree 100% the point to an injection of AS is Intramuscular. Glutes have alot of subliminal tissue (fatty tissue) and density probally more than any other part of the body. That is why doctors prefer to give injects there. The trick is, as TNT said the length of the needle to get past all that into the place where it counts the most, "The muscle". I would not recommend anyhthing less than a 1" but by standard I'd use a 11/2" always, not matter how much BF you have.

[rangerdudeleads]

I will try quads if i can get the guts to do it again cause last time I injected there I hit a nerve and ever since i have been gun shy to inject into the quads.

[Sicilian30]

I hit a nerve in my quad the last time I injected, but it was more toward the upper and outter part of my quad. I had never injected there before well that far up, and sure enough I hit a nerve, I jsut backed out alittle and went for it, being very careful. As long as you stay about half way up the thigh you should be okay. This may help ya:
http://www.spotinjections.com/index2.htm
One minor note, my next inject, I think I am going to try the small quad muscle just above the knee (dammit I forget the name of the muscle, been so long since weight training in college to where I had to know all the muscles of the body).
BTW what size pins are you using in your thighs? I hope not a 11/2"er?

[TNT]

Quad shots are always done on the outer side of the leg. While some people call them thigh injections and some call them leg injections, the proper term is quad because it refers to a specific part of the leg below the thigh.

So if you've never read this before, here's how to do it:

Stand up. (Yes, now.) Put one hand on the outer side of your leg, pointing downward, with the fingertips at knee level. The quad is above where your hand ends and your wrist begins.

Now put the same hand, again pointing downward, so that your hand ends and your wrist begins at the pelvic crest - the top of the pelvic bone, just below the waist line. The quad is now below your fingertips.

That's the handbreadth test. The quad is the space between where you had your hands both times. In fact, if yoyu sit and flex your leg, you can feel the actual muscle.

When you insert the needle in your quad with one hand, take your other hand and pinch yourself somewhere else on that leg or the other leg. Seriously - it will deflect any pain from the needle. Insert it at a comfortable rate - not too fast (not a jab), not too slow - and you'll be less sensitive to the notion of hitting a nerve. Once the needle is in, release the other hand so you can aspirate the syringe with both hands.

Finally, on quad shots, you do not need a 1-1/2" needle - go with a maximum 1" in length and maximum 23 gauge. The thinner the needle, two things will happen: First, the injection (the push) will take a little longer but, second, you will have less pain. So, you were in a rush?

[Microbrew]

Good post TNT

[Whiteyebrowe]

good read

[REM]

Originally posted by TNT
Quad shots are always done on the outer side of the leg. While some people call them thigh injections and some call them leg injections, the proper term is quad because it refers to a specific part of the leg below the thigh.

So if you've never read this before, here's how to do it:

Stand up. (Yes, now.) Put one hand on the outer side of your leg, pointing downward, with the fingertips at knee level. The quad is above where your hand ends and your wrist begins.

Now put the same hand, again pointing downward, so that your hand ends and your wrist begins at the pelvic crest - the top of the pelvic bone, just below the waist line. The quad is now below your fingertips.

That's the handbreadth test. The quad is the space between where you had your hands both times. In fact, if yoyu sit and flex your leg, you can feel the actual muscle.

When you insert the needle in your quad with one hand, take your other hand and pinch yourself somewhere else on that leg or the other leg. Seriously - it will deflect any pain from the needle. Insert it at a comfortable rate - not too fast (not a jab), not too slow - and you'll be less sensitive to the notion of hitting a nerve. Once the needle is in, release the other hand so you can aspirate the syringe with both hands.

Finally, on quad shots, you do not need a 1-1/2" needle - go with a maximum 1" in length and maximum 23 gauge. The thinner the needle, two things will happen: First, the injection (the push) will take a little longer but, second, you will have less pain. So, you were in a rush?

TNT r u saying that if i use insulin needle 1/2'
will not work? i just started using them man i love them

[babi]

well i dont know much about where to inject from bb literature,but on every vial that i have used its said for deep intramuscular injection only so based on the directions injecting in the glutes it would make sense for us.

[ARABIAN_FREAK]

Nice thread.

[REM]

Originally posted by babi
well i dont know much about where to inject from bb literature,but on every vial that i have used its said for deep intramuscular injection only so based on the directions injecting in the glutes it would make sense for us.

reading the instructions i agreed make sense,
i been using 23,25, and 28 insulin sizes so far
i feel the same, do u think using these small
sizes in the long run will not work?

[sp33dg33k]

Originally posted by REM


reading the instructions i agreed make sense,
i been using 23,25, and 28 insulin sizes so far
i feel the same, do u think using these small
sizes in the long run will not work?

u need to reach the muscle so i would suggest the following lengths

glutes 1.5"
quads 1"
delts 1"

guages are personal preference (i use 22 or 23 for glutes and 25 for delts)