What defines when a person is ready for AS?

[CAGE]

I have been reading this forum for years (months even before I registered in 05). Just looking around with one eyebrow raised. There is still one question that has been addressed a few times but, never really a solid answer has been given. Why must someone meet or be very close to their genetic potential in order to use Steroids successfully? Why does this social law exist?
Please don't get me wrong I don't use. I weight but 160 pounds at 5'11 33 years old. Yes I tried a 17 methylated PH, but only for a short time and got nothing but Test flu and my liver still sends me hate mail.

This question is not to argue any one side of the question and is just a method to understand better why. Is this really just a point of view or is there some medical side effect of doing this? I know that when you are still growing it's bad that's a derrrr. Is it just considered LAZY or Un-respected to inject and grow with out spending years in the gym first?

I seem to find that non-genetically Maxed out people that have done cycles have gained just as much on standard test cycles (9-12 pound range) as people who have been working out for years. This confuses me. What about The smart newbie? The guy that did everything right and ate big and clean and did his PCT like a good boy that is. Not the 21 Year old hot head who just wanted to impress the ladies over spring break.

I hear the term thrown around that "hey you got a nice base" Why must one have a nice base to start a smart AS cycle? What is wrong with an intelligent informed non-genetically maxed person using an AS to get a nice base? Is all this based on the theory that only people who have been working out for years know there body well enough and are disciplined enough to be able to stick with all that is needed to complete a safe cycle?

But again, is their some harm that you do to yourself if you use AS before you have a good base? Will you prevent yourself from growing larger or some how stunt your growth? I have read a few times this so called fact, but to be honest it was just a fact based on a few opinions nothing in science states that AS change Genetics in any way. You go off AS and stop working out you go back to your genetics weather it be skinny legs or not.

I have also read that if you don't wait until you reach your max genetic potential before you start using AS, then you will not grow as big as you could have because you stop responding to AS and need more to get bigger or unsafer kinds of AS to continue to grow. This answer troubles me too...I don't see the big deal unless you want to compete as a professional BB ...Lee Haney most we aint

Ok ...I keep listening to myself read all this. I am not sure if anybody's answer is the absolute true, or correct answer. It is all going to be hypothesis right (just a theory)? Now I want to prove that using AS too early is bad or disprove it so how? Well hmm that would mean that I would have to be a test subject. Quite Litterly a test subject. I want to do this in a safe style in a kind of Supersize me format (the movie about how bad Mcdonalds is for your health for those living under a rock). But I would like to ask if anybody cares about this. Would this be interesting to find out what my results would be? How long would I keep them? Would I blow up like an ethiopian with a big mac? What kinds of info is important to you. Am I playing with fire here? I want to make a contribution. To be fair I work out. I am an Ectomorph have about a 16% body fat. Im 33 5'11. I consider myself smart-intelligent and have time on my hands and the dedication to find out. Everything will be logged with pictures. So You tell me .

[TheArtist]

I, like you, have cruised these boards for some time. Also, like you, I've seen numerous times people say that one should reach their "genetic potential" before starting aas. I can't sit here and say you're right or wrong, As I continue to learn something here on a daily basis. HOWEVER, I'll give you my own personal opinion.

I tend to agree, that aside from the obvious; being too young, medical complications, etc etc.., That a smart, well researched cycle, could be beneficial to most people looking to gain some muscle mass... again... assuming they're well informed, well educated, and have all their ducks in a row as it were...
Unfortunately, from what i see around here, most people that find this place, are young know it alls, who (like you said) wanna get ripped for the girls or whatnot. For me, aas was a springboard. I've been interested in working out and building muscle for years and I, Like a lot of.... young know it alls... jumped into a cycle head first without any PROPER knowledge of the chemicals i was shooting into my body. I came here, learned what to do, and what not to do, Gained quite a wealth of knowledge, and have since transformed my body, and changed my life. Using gear, helped me realize what MY body was capable of, and the type of changes i could manipulate my body into making.
So, to make a long story even longer... I think if one is properly prepared, despite having, or NOT having reached their genetic potential, aas COULD be very helpful. But there's always a negative side... and i'm sure you know how gear use can go terrible wrong, so i won't delve into that...
In short...i support ya. BUT, in order for you to be a great test subject, you would have to use gear responsibly and safely, and also abuse it to the full extent, to get both sides of the spectrum... which may prove quite difficult for a number of reasons.... lol take that for what it's worth. and GL

[godkilla]

your obviously not eating enough. forget steroids and learn how to eat 6-7 meals a day consistantly and youll "blow up like an ethiopian on a big mac"

[TheArtist]

if you're referring to my post... i didn't refer to diet, as i assumed it was a given....

[godkilla]

if you're referring to my post... i didn't refer to diet, as i assumed it was a given....

your post wasnt even up when i started typing mine i type like an old man

[CAGE]

your obviously not eating enough. forget steroids and learn how to eat 6-7 meals a day consistantly and youll "blow up like an ethiopian on a big mac"

I just finished a 30 day short diet lost 22 pounds. I was 180 Aug 2nd . I know that aint much ...I lost this weight cutting all simple sugar and 40P 40C 20F 2100 cal a day ... Prior to that I was 22% bf and about 3200 -3400 cal a day.

[TheArtist]

lol, it's all good

[hugoboss]

I believe the point is, why would one wont to risk all the possible ill affect(long and short term) to there body to do something that they could have done with simple dedication to food and training? I mean we all know there are many side affects to these drugs, maybe even some we yet not know about. If you can do it without the risk surely that is the best and prefered way...
Thats just mt take on it? could be wrong

[hugoboss]

plus you will most likely lose almost all your gains if your diet and training are not fine tuned b4 hand....

[RAPHIE]

agree with hugoboss, i've being reading a lot also before i do my first cycle. i have'nt done it yet because i keep geting weight and gains all natural. so imo the least cycles i have to do to reach my goal the better, if i start now ill need lots of cycles than i would if i just reach my "genetic potential".

[InsaneInTheMembrane]

I just finished a 30 day short diet lost 22 pounds. I was 180 Aug 2nd . I know that aint much ...I lost this weight cutting all simple sugar and 40P 40C 20F 2100 cal a day ... Prior to that I was 22% bf and about 3200 -3400 cal a day.

Off the bat, you, on average, lost 5lbs a week, which is either 1. you lost mostly water weight OR 2. you exceeded the recommended 1-2lbs/week, translated into sacrificing muscle in the process. Anyhu, I want to address your original commentary.

I agree with you that "genetic potential" is a term thrown around very liberally these days when advice is being dispensed to newbies. However, maxing out on genetic potential is a process less complicated than it sounds, IMO. There are two major components to this: The fact that you have been weight training regularly for a number of years AND following a proper dieting regimen for the same length of time. If these two conditions are met, you can be sure you wont be dealing with a skinny or a chubby guy because these two processes will have involved alot of hit-and-misses that would allow a person to assess how their body responds to external stimuli (diet and exercise) and fine tune continually...that is the "base" we all talk about, a broader context than just a response to seeing some guy posting a steroid -free pic up. IMHO, "Maxing on genetic potential" does not mean you have gained as much muscle as you possibly can naturally, because the law of diminishing returns would guarantee that you can go on till you are 40 and still make meager gains naturally, which is not the age when you would prefer to start using AAS, especially because the best years of your youth has passed you by. So, in conclusion, the consensus around here is an ideal person ready for AAS is one who is at least 25 years of age (post-puberty hormonal stability has been reached), worked out and followed a proper diet for 3-4 years: This would virtually guarantee a person who has achieved a large chunk of their "genetic potential". On that same token is exactly why someone who had never worked out or followed a diet should not hope on AAS; there simply is no discipline...and no discipline or commitment to a lifestyle is equivalent to having no respect for the risks AAS may pose. It doesn't matter how well educated you are - all the knowledge in the world means nothing if you dont have the mental strength to carry it out - actions speak louder than words.

There obviously is no science or hard and fast rules to any kind of criteria being set on this board, just a whole lot of common sense garnered from personal experience - heck, sometimes even the vets disagree with each other on certain points regarding AAS use, so how would you expect a newbie to make any sense of anything at all if there's always something contradicting something else? Once again, it's all about personal experience. HOWEVER, one thing that no one EVER disagrees on is that Diet and Exercise come before AAS usage, and if you don't have the former two down, then gear aint gonna do diddly-squat for you. It's important to know your body intimately before you start pumping foreign substances into them... otherwise, how will you ever identify any problems you encounter?

Hope it helps,
cheers

[CAGE]

****Bump****

[billybambam]

Off the bat, you, on average, lost 5lbs a week, which is either 1. you lost mostly water weight OR 2. you exceeded the recommended 1-2lbs/week, translated into sacrificing muscle in the process. Anyhu, I want to address your original commentary.

I agree with you that "genetic potential" is a term thrown around very liberally these days when advice is being dispensed to newbies. However, maxing out on genetic potential is a process less complicated than it sounds, IMO. There are two major components to this: The fact that you have been weight training regularly for a number of years AND following a proper dieting regimen for the same length of time. If these two conditions are met, you can be sure you wont be dealing with a skinny or a chubby guy because these two processes will have involved alot of hit-and-misses that would allow a person to assess how their body responds to external stimuli (diet and exercise) and fine tune continually...that is the "base" we all talk about, a broader context than just a response to seeing some guy posting a steroid -free pic up. IMHO, "Maxing on genetic potential" does not mean you have gained as much muscle as you possibly can naturally, because the law of diminishing returns would guarantee that you can go on till you are 40 and still make meager gains naturally, which is not the age when you would prefer to start using AAS, especially because the best years of your youth has passed you by. So, in conclusion, the consensus around here is an ideal person ready for AAS is one who is at least 25 years of age (post-puberty hormonal stability has been reached), worked out and followed a proper diet for 3-4 years: This would virtually guarantee a person who has achieved a large chunk of their "genetic potential". On that same token is exactly why someone who had never worked out or followed a diet should not hope on AAS; there simply is no discipline...and no discipline or commitment to a lifestyle is equivalent to having no respect for the risks AAS may pose. It doesn't matter how well educated you are - all the knowledge in the world means nothing if you dont have the mental strength to carry it out - actions speak louder than words.

There obviously is no science or hard and fast rules to any kind of criteria being set on this board, just a whole lot of common sense garnered from personal experience - heck, sometimes even the vets disagree with each other on certain points regarding AAS use, so how would you expect a newbie to make any sense of anything at all if there's always something contradicting something else? Once again, it's all about personal experience. HOWEVER, one thing that no one EVER disagrees on is that Diet and Exercise come before AAS usage, and if you don't have the former two down, then gear aint gonna do diddly-squat for you. It's important to know your body intimately before you start pumping foreign substances into them... otherwise, how will you ever identify any problems you encounter?

Hope it helps,
cheers

Very well put!

[bigtomo1]

everybody has there own ideas,me personally i trained drug free for five years,in those five years i done everything i could to get as big as i could,trying all different types of training routines,changing my routines,eating as much as possible,taking supplements etc etc,but then i hit a brick wall and seemed like no matter what i tried i couldnt gain weight or lift any heavier,then i knew it was time for steroids !!

[dece870717]

everybody has there own ideas,me personally i trained drug free for five years,in those five years i done everything i could to get as big as i could,trying all different types of training routines,changing my routines,eating as much as possible,taking supplements etc etc,but then i hit a brick wall and seemed like no matter what i tried i couldnt gain weight or lift any heavier,then i knew it was time for steroids!!

Same exact thing happened to me. I'd try bulking and only thing I would end up gaining is fat, no change in amount of muscle and not even slight change in strength, that last year of natural lifting I got zero results, WHOLE year with no results, I got fed up.

[Crest]

i was thinking

surly if you start on the ass once you have reached your natural limiit, the gains should be harder to keep as its then un-natural size you are gaining.

if you are using steroids before your peak then the gains are still within your natural limit so they would be easier to keep.

as long as diet, pct and training were in check.

no evidence to back this up but its just something i keep thinking to myself.

[pimpdawgin]

your obviously not eating enough. forget steroids and learn how to eat 6-7 meals a day consistantly and youll "blow up like an ethiopian on a big mac"

You don't know that for sure just by looking at his height and weight. Not everyone's genetics lend themselves to putting on and keeping large amounts of muscle, no matter what training and nutrition is followed. Whether it be metabolism, natural test., cortisol levels, etc. Maybe most people can make serious gains from eating lots and training, but once passing the peak of natural testosterone production, some people might not be able to.
And, yes, steroids shouldn't be taken the second one hits a percieved plateau, as there are other ways of getting around that, I don't think one needs to be at least 200 pounds, or whatever, before being allowed to use steroids . Some people are naturally bigger than others. The naturally smaller ones will not be able to grow as big as the naturally bigger ones. Personally, there is no way in hell that I would be able to hit 200 lbs. without being a giant fat-ass. On the other hand, there are guys who can be 200 and ripped without touching a weight and eating Cheetos all day long. Does that make them more qualified for AAS use? I hope not.

[godkilla]

You don't know that for sure just by looking at his height and weight. Not everyone's genetics lend themselves to putting on and keeping large amounts of muscle, no matter what training and nutrition is followed. Whether it be metabolism, natural test., cortisol levels, etc. Maybe most people can make serious gains from eating lots and training, but once passing the peak of natural testosterone production, some people might not be able to.
And, yes, steroids shouldn't be taken the second one hits a percieved plateau, as there are other ways of getting around that, I don't think one needs to be at least 200 pounds, or whatever, before being allowed to use steroids. Some people are naturally bigger than others. The naturally smaller ones will not be able to grow as big as the naturally bigger ones. Personally, there is no way in hell that I would be able to hit 200 lbs. without being a giant fat-ass. On the other hand, there are guys who can be 200 and ripped without touching a weight and eating Cheetos all day long. Does that make them more qualified for AAS use? I hope not.

5'11 160lbs and 16% bf(and thats after dieting down 20lbs). nuff said.

[pimpdawgin]

5'11 160lbs and 16% bf(and thats after dieting down 20lbs). nuff said.

Alright, fair enough. I wasn't singling you out specifically, sorry if it seemed that way.
What I was trying to get at was the way most people determine if someone's ready for AAS use: basicall just height & weight.

[godkilla]

Alright, fair enough. I wasn't singling you out specifically, sorry if it seemed that way.
What I was trying to get at was the way most people determine if someone's ready for AAS use: basicall just height & weight.

i dont think height and weight is a good way to determine if someone is ready either, but it can provide clues. the most important thing i think is that the individual has been serious for long enough to get the basics like diet and exercise down.

[pimpdawgin]

i dont think height and weight is a good way to determine if someone is ready either, but it can provide clues. the most important thing i think is that the individual has been serious for long enough to get the basics like diet and exercise down.

Agreed.

[bigtomo1]

worked out on height and weight??? how stupid is that theory!!
it should be based on experience in the gym,diet,age to a certain extent and maybe most important of all doing your homework on steroids before you even start.

[bigtomo1]

i was thinking

surly if you start on the ass once you have reached your natural limiit, the gains should be harder to keep as its then un-natural size you are gaining.

if you are using steroids before your peak then the gains are still within your natural limit so they would be easier to keep.

as long as diet, pct and training were in check.

no evidence to back this up but its just something i keep thinking to myself.

well its all un-natural size to a certain extent,bodybuilders size and strength is not natural but thats part of the reason why most of us love the sport,that said the gains sometimes are harder to keep but theres things you can do to help keep those gains like pct,hgh etc etc.

[taiboxa]

only one thing tells me if a person is ready.. besides the obvoius fact if they are a 16yr old thats just dumb.. but really all i need to see is their diet.. if they have that in check.. that pretty much tells me everything i need to know. if you do the "WAIT TILL U HIT UR GENETIC PEAK" your lookin at YEARS and YEARS OF training naturally like 10-15years if not longer lol as you can ALMOST ALWAYS make gains by manipulating ones diet but then it gets to where ur puttin on 2-3lbs of muscle a year.

[mkrulic]

I just finished a 30 day short diet lost 22 pounds. I was 180 Aug 2nd . I know that aint much ...I lost this weight cutting all simple sugar and 40P 40C 20F 2100 cal a day ... Prior to that I was 22% bf and about 3200 -3400 cal a day.

I find the math on this interesting. 1 lb of fat is roughly 3500 calories. you ingested
3400-2100=1300 calories less per day
over the month time that equates to:
1300*30=39,000 calories
22lbs of fat in calories is
22*3500=77,000calories
77,000calories - 39,000 calories =38,000calories
38,000/30days = 1267cal/day
that was some good work. I bet you stayed tired.

[CAGE]

I find the math on this interesting. 1 lb of fat is roughly 3500 calories. you ingested
3400-2100=1300 calories less per day
over the month time that equates to:
1300*30=39,000 calories
22lbs of fat in calories is
22*3500=77,000calories
77,000calories - 39,000 calories =38,000calories
38,000/30days = 1267cal/day
that was some good work. I bet you stayed tired.

Did cardio in the morning for about an hour before work, then again on my lunch hour for 45min. Then later that night at about 9pm I would hit the weights hard for about an hour and 45min. Lots and lots of water and protein shakes. I pop caffeine pills too. Its always been easy to lose weight for me, its always been hard to gain weight even now at 33. As far as losing muscle on this short diet, I may have lost some, but I don't see it. The backs of my arms and shoulders are infact a little bit bigger but nothing significant. I am sure alot of the weight I lost could be water? When drinking as much water as I do I have to pee ALOT! maybe a diuretic effect? Its been 3 days and back on a higher calorie diet now and I am loading Creatine. I can already say that 3 of the pounds came back ...so yes water not all fat was lost. I log everything My diet is as follows now:

6:15 am
1 cup of oats mixed with skim milk
1 banana
3 eggs
Supplements are Multi vitamin, 5mg creatine and 1tsp of Glutamine

7:15 caffeine 100mg or sugar free coffee.

9:30am
16 -20 oz Whey protein shake in skim milk
Fruit cup

10:30
shot of BCAA's
small bag of peanuts or trail mix (not the candy kind)

11:30
Small curd cottage cheese
water or small about of protein shake

12:15-12-30
Subway sweet onion salad
bag of apples
can of tuna
water

2:15
Can of tuna or cottage cheese
10 strawberries or 1 banana
protein shake
5mg creatine

4:30
Hamburger patty no bread (with A1 sauce)
brown rice
protein shake

6:00 -6:30
slice of wheat bread with 2 tablespoons of protein
caffeine pill or coffee

8:00
2 pounds of Boneless chicken (very lean chicken)
caffeine or peas
protein shake

10:00
protein shake
5mg creatine
BCCA's and 1 tsp of Glutamine
maybe an apple or orange.


I have to say that eating alot it tough... I think my stomac got use to being empty for a month or just filled with liquid most of the time. I have an office job were I sit on my but all day in a cube so sitting and eating is easy.

[NotSmall]

only one thing tells me if a person is ready.. besides the obvoius fact if they are a 16yr old thats just dumb.. but really all i need to see is their diet.. if they have that in check.. that pretty much tells me everything i need to know. if you do the "WAIT TILL U HIT UR GENETIC PEAK" your lookin at YEARS and YEARS OF training naturally like 10-15years if not longer lol as you can ALMOST ALWAYS make gains by manipulating ones diet but then it gets to where ur puttin on 2-3lbs of muscle a year.

Yup, the genetic potential thing is a load of nonsense - no one reached their "genetic limit" before juicing, it is wise to have gained some decent muscle naturally though as this demonstrates that diet and training are in check - otherwise all that will happen is that all the steroid gains will evaporate as you don't know how to hold on to them.