I just heard about these two. Apparently they have been around for a long time, but I guess they aren't very popular around where I am. I have heard both good and bad things about them. I am thinking about starting a cycle and I am just looking for any info about cycles for them. After reading some posts on other websites, I'm not sure if the gains are worth the side effects. I'm not really even sure of what kind of gains can be made with these. Any info would help. Thanks.