Anti Estrogen Selection for Cycle.

**Mazzive_T** · 09-13-2008, 10:11 AM

Hi all.

Im Currently in week 7 of the following cycle:

Weeks 1-14 Test E 500mg/week
Weeks 1-16 Test P 75mg/day (16 weeks due to wait for long esters to leave to start PCT)
Weeks 1-12 Deca 550mg/week
Weeks 1-12 EQ 600mg/week
Weeks 1-6 Dbol 50mg/day

Feel the need for an anti estrogen as the spots are getting a wee bit worse, and also my pecs are starting to look a bit puffy.

I have on me, 25 arimidex tabs (1mg each) few boxes of tamoxifen (20mg tabs) few boxes of clomid (50mg tabs), and 5 boxes of proviron (25mg tabs)

i also have 25 25mg aromasin tabs on way but i was going to reserve them for pct as im going to run anthony roberts pct.

i was thinking arimidex 0.5mg EOD as a solution to this situation, what do you think?

Would like to add proviron in there too, as ive researched it increases free testosterone whilst acting as a "kind of" anti e too. Do you think i should and at what dosage?

or should i run a different compound for an anti e completely?

i think armidex at 0.5mg EOD is the way forward from here but what do you all think?

T.

**Mulciber** · 09-13-2008, 10:23 AM

id go with the nolvadex

**redz** · 09-13-2008, 10:27 AM

id go with the nolvadex

Do NOT TAKE NOLVA ON CYCLE!
arimidex is the better choice for sure!

**Mulciber** · 09-13-2008, 10:32 AM

if you have itchy ,puffy nips and believe gyno symptoms are beginning to flair up nolvadex is the right choice.
adex stops the conversion to estrogen.. if your running it from the begining fine,, but if you have been running nothing the circulating estrogen is already present so you want to go with nolvadex to keep it from binding to the receptor.

**Freakish** · 09-13-2008, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by redz

Do NOT TAKE NOLVA ON CYCLE!
arimidex is the better choice for sure!

yeah and definitely not with deca

**Mulciber** · 09-13-2008, 10:36 AM

i dont care what your running.. if you have gyno symptoms nolvadex is the correct choice.. now if your just running something as a preventave measure then the topic is up for debate

**Freakish** · 09-13-2008, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mulciber

i dont care what your running.. if you have gyno symptoms nolvadex is the correct choice.. now if your just running something as a preventave measure then the topic is up for debate

since when?the only thing i know of that takes care of gyno if you catch it in its early stages is letro,nolva wont do much for gyno that has developed

**redz** · 09-13-2008, 10:39 AM

i dont care what your running.. if you have gyno symptoms nolvadex is the correct choice.. now if your just running something as a preventave measure then the topic is up for debate

That depends on the type of gyno. He may have gyno caused by the deca which would actually become worse with nolva. Letro would be another choice but arimidex should do the trick.

**Freakish** · 09-13-2008, 10:41 AM

and since he is running deca he may get progest gyno,nolva can actually make it worse!letro decreases progest/prolactin

**Freakish** · 09-13-2008, 10:41 AM

redz you bet me to it

**Mulciber** · 09-13-2008, 10:52 AM

progesterone gyno.. come on.. rare if it happens at all..
gyno is part of a coordination of hormones. They are interrelated, so ideas of "progesterone induced gyno" are misleading. Estrogen is a necessary component of breast development.
Prolactin, progesterone, GH, Estrogen, and IGF-1 are all stimulatory and act in and integrated fashion to initiate the sequence of events that is breast growth.
androgens such as nandrolone can exert direct estrogenic effects via binding to the ER, this is true, but again at much higher concentrations than those realized in bodybuilders. And it is a simple matter to antagonize this effect to a large extent with tamoxifen . Moreover, these minimally aromatizing drugs like nandrolone lower overall estradiol levels in the body, so this effect would certainly negate any stimulatory effect they would have on the estrogen receptor even if a person could achieve plasma concentration of drugs like nandrolone or tren high enough to act as ER agonists.

nolvadex is not 100% effective in treating gyno whatever the etiology. Even in cases where gyno is caused by a clear imbalance in the androgen/estrogen ratio nolvadex won't cure all these cases. It, and raloxifene seem to be the most effective drugs .
progestins work via the PR. But their action via the PR does not cause gyno in any direct fashion. Progestins seems to be rather asexual in their characteristics. Progestins can aggravate estrogen related gyno, the current theory being an upgrading effect on the ER.

What is being said is basically that progesterone can only cause or aggravate gyno in the presence of circulating estrogen.

so nolvadex is the choice.

lets debate.... please continue..

**Mulciber** · 09-13-2008, 10:57 AM

and lets not puke out what you have been fed on this board at noisome.. lets hear it in your own words just exactly how it works..

**redz** · 09-13-2008, 11:00 AM

There are more reasons not to use nolva on cycle as well...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taken from ****morphosis.com

Why Nolvadex Should be Avoided at All Cost
by Dharkam

Nolvadex is the trade name of a drug containing a molecule called Tamoxifen . Its primary use by male bodybuilders is to prevent gynecomastia (the growth of the breast tissue). It was introduced by steroid guru Dan Duchaine 25 years ago. After a quarter of century, it is time for an update about its use. What I am going to demonstrate is it is high time to eliminate Nolvadex from the bodybuilder's drug stacks.

A Little Bit of History

Back in the late 70's, more and more bodybuilders developed strange lumps around their mammary glands. At first, no one really took notice but more and more competitors grew a gynecomastia. In 1981, the M Olympia had a pretty serious gyno. This was shortly after the introduction of this new drug by Dan Duchaine. At the time, it was a pretty good idea as no one else could came up with a solution in order to prevent this growing problem. Nolvadex was popularised by Dan's first Underground Steroid Handbook. Dan even states that "this drug has a lot of potential but hasn't been used enough yet to find it". After more than 25 years of intensive usage, it is my opinion that it is time to forget about Nolvadex. Why? First, because newer and more effective drugs have been developed. Second, because it seems obvious that Nolvadex impairs muscle growth.

Nolvadex and Muscle Growth

After so many years of usage, it seems pretty clear that if Tamoxifen helps prevent the growth of the nipples, it also weakens the anabolic properties of steroids in a majority of bodybuilders. We are frequently said that this weakening effect is due to the anti-estrogenic action of Nolvadex. According to the fantasy, muscles require both testosterone and estrogens to grow at an optimal rate.

This belief is derived from the results of studies showing that without estrogens, testosterone alone possesses minimal anabolic properties. By increasing the density of androgen receptors, estrogens render the muscles much more sensitive to testosterone (1). This has been demonstrated in a very specific muscle called the levator ani. But this muscle does not reflect what happens in the muscles bodybuilders are interested in (2). Estrogens have even been shown to reduce muscle fiber size (3-4). I think this effect of estrogens is closer to what we experience on bodybuilders.

Another popular explanation of the weakening action of Nolvadex is provided by studies which have shown that it reduced the plasma level of IGF-1. I do not think this is a primary explanation.

What Nolvadex Truly Is

Most lifters assume Nolvadex is a pure estrogen antagonist (which would mean it prevents estrogens from acting on their receptors). As far as bodybuilding is concerned, this assumption is very wrong as Nolvadex is both an estrogen receptor agonist and an antagonist. It all depends upon the tissues. Along with the nipples, on which Nolvadex acts mainly as an antagonist, we are also interested by its behaviour on skeletal muscles, on the liver and on the fat cells.

Nolvadex has been shown to behave as estrogens in skeletal muscles (5). This is a very good thing for every athletes except bodybuilders. You see, estrogens protect muscle cells from the training-induced damages (5-6). It means that one can train more without damaging his muscles. Recovery will also be much faster. But for bodybuilders, the training-induced damages are a key ingredient to trigger growth. Nolvadex will therefore reduce the muscle building effects of resistance training.

As for the impact of Tamoxifen on IGF-1, it simply demonstrates another estrogen-like action of Nolvadex. By rendering the liver less sensitive to growth hormone (probably by reducing the liver density of GH receptors), estrogens and tamoxifen diminish the production of IGF-1. This action of estrogens explains why women produce less IGF-1 than men eventhough the have a higher GH level.

Nolvadex and Muscle Definition

Within 24 to 48 hours, Nolvadex is able to greatly increase muscular definition. As a result, bodybuilders assume Nolvadex will help them reduce their bodyfat level. But this rapid cutting action of Nolvadex is due to an anti-estrogenic action on water retention. Estrogens will make you hold water. Nolvadex will produce the opposite effect. But it says nothing about the impact of Tamoxifen on bodyfat. Depending upon your own production of estrogens and your estrogen receptor density on adipocytes, Nolvadex can act as an antagonist (which would help you lose fat) or an agonist. In that case, Nolvadex will make you fatter especially in the lower body area.

Conclusion: if the introduction of Nolvadex 25 years ago was a brilliant idea, times have changed. Very effective anti-aromatase drugs (such as Letrozole or Anastrazole) have been introduced. They will fight gynecomastia, help prevent the anti-anabolic actions of estrogens, fight fat and water retention. They will also boost natural testosterone production far more effectively than Nolvadex. So, it is up to you to decide whether you wish impair your rate of progression with an outdated drug or move on to the 21st century.

**Mulciber** · 09-13-2008, 11:08 AM

this is not about runing it during a cycle ..like as a preventave measure.. not the freakin issue here..but i can debate this topic as well if you like..

the issue here is he may have gyno symptoms.. 7 weeks into his cycle.. itchy/puffy nips.. you want to get this under control before it continues to get worse..lumps were to form.. to get this issue under control nolvadex is the answer under these circumstances ..

**redz** · 09-13-2008, 11:38 AM

the issue here is he may have gyno symptoms.. 7 weeks into his cycle.. itchy/puffy nips.. you want to get this under control before it continues to get worse..lumps were to form.. to get this issue under control nolvadex is the answer under these circumstances ..

It has not truely become an issue as the original poster just feels he wants to be careful at this point. Arimidex will work and not inhibit gains this is not full blown gyno and I`m sur ehe doesnt want to heavily limit his gains with nolva.

**Mulciber** · 09-13-2008, 11:49 AM

if your running it from the beginning sure, adex is great.. stopping the conversion from the get go.. but if your mid cycle,not running anything, circulating estrogen is already present.. adex wouldnt be the answer.you would want to keep whats there from binding.
i surely wouldnt use the word "heavily" when referring to nolvadex limiting gains.. can it possibly have some effect .. sure.. but imo minimal at best..
if you feel the onset of gyno symptoms it is best to be proactive.. unless you want to sport a set of double D's with those massive bicepts because you didnt want to run nolvadex because it might somewhat limit your gains

this topic has been debated to death..take it for what you will..people can make their own decisions..

**Mulciber** · 09-13-2008, 11:55 AM

also..full blown gyno.. you want to stop it before it becomes "full blown gyno".. thus starting preventive measures when symptoms start.. do you understand the difference between the symptoms and actual gyno

**RapaciousShark** · 09-13-2008, 12:10 PM

I don't have any experience with nolva and deca , but I do know that using the #1 recommended emergency gyno treatment, letro, was the worst thing i could have done. It took two weeks to start working, allowing my gyno "symptoms" to turn into peas.

Nolva takes 2 days TOPS to stop the gyno, so I support that point. Again, i don't even know anyone who has used nolva with deca, so can't comment on that.

**NewSB** · 09-13-2008, 02:02 PM

Hey everyone... 7 years ago i used deca and d-bol with no pct. I know very very Foolish..i learned my lession. I never developed lumps or prolactin out of my nipples , but when relaxed my nipples are puffy. So my question is when using my Pct will the Nolv have any reverse affects due to the slight progest i may have develped years ago.

26yr 5'10 170lbs execellent diet/9yrs training

Sus 250 500mg/week eod.

On cycle...L-Dex .5 e3d (or when needed)

Pct

Nolv
week 1-2 40 mg ed
week 3-4 20 mg ed

Arom
week 1-2 40 mg ed
week 3-4 20 mg ed

look good...what do u think?? Should be just right.