Does Nolvadex/Tamoxifen stimulate natural test production?

[jg42058p]

Does Nolvadex /Tamoxifen stimulate natural test production similar to clomid?

[LATS60]

Does Nolvadex/Tamoxifen stimulate natural test production similar to clomid?

Yes, but for some reason a lot of ppl think only clomid is good for this, but nolva has been shown to work very well.

[peachfuzz]

Yes, but for some reason a lot of ppl think only clomid is good for this, but nolva has been shown to work very well.

ditto.

[Dizz28]

Nolva is more effective then Clomid

[peachfuzz]

i agree.

[Swifto]

Nolva is more effective then Clomid

Seriously, I'm fed up with this rubbish...Not just you mate.

Why is it? Have you done your own research or followed Anthony Conners advice in the steroid profiles forum?

I completely disagree with Tamox being superoir to Clomid for HPTA recovery. Thats probably obvious to some of the members that spend time in the pct forum.

Most studies on Tamox show possitive effects on LH, FSH and T after weeks/months of treatment. Whilst studies on hypogondal males using Clomid show elevations in days and weeks.

Tamox should be used for treating gyno, not a shutdown or inhibited HPTA, unless one experiences extreme sides when even using a low dose of Clomid.

[Swifto]

Conners's is opinoin is based on himself not agreeing with Clomid whatsoever, even at low doses, this doesnt mean its not right for others. I think he got vision disturbences...

There is also far more research done on Clomid on hypogondal males than there is on Tamox

Users use far too much Clomid. Even 25mg/ED can have massive amounts (cant remember figures, I posted the study in the PCT forum recently) on LH, FSH and T for restoring endogenous testosterone production.

This 300mg day 1 bullshit causes sides and so do doses above 100-150mg in most. I have seen only one study which uses over 100mg/ED for a short peroid, then back down to 25-100mg/ED.

My advice is to do 2 weeks on 50mg/ED, then 2-3 weeks on 25mg/ED.

Then there is Tormifene....Which some say is even better than Clomid...Its less toxic of the 3 anyhow.

HPTA restoration:
Tormifene/Clomid (arguably Torm from user experiences)
Tamox
Ralox

Gyno:
Ralox
Tamox
Clomid
Torm

[Drake Hotel]

Seriously, I'm fed up with this rubbish...Not just you mate.

Why is it? Have you done your own research or followed Anthony Conners advice in the steroid profiles forum?

I completely disagree with Tamox being superoir to Clomid for HPTA recovery. Thats probably obvious to some of the members that spend time in the pct forum.

Most studies on Tamox show possitive effects on LH, FSH and T after weeks/months of treatment. Whilst studies on hypogondal males using Clomid show elevations in days and weeks.

Tamox should be used for treating gyno, not a shutdown or inhibited HPTA, unless one experiences extreme sides when even using a low dose of Clomid.

Plus nolva decreases IGF-1 levels. (don't know by what mechanism though)

[LATS60]

Seriously, I'm fed up with this rubbish...Not just you mate.

Why is it? Have you done your own research or followed Anthony Conners advice in the steroid profiles forum?

I completely disagree with Tamox being superoir to Clomid for HPTA recovery. Thats probably obvious to some of the members that spend time in the pct forum.

Most studies on Tamox show possitive effects on LH, FSH and T after weeks/months of treatment. Whilst studies on hypogondal males using Clomid show elevations in days and weeks.

Tamox should be used for treating gyno, not a shutdown or inhibited HPTA, unless one experiences extreme sides when even using a low dose of Clomid.

It's not rubbish and you are entitled to your opinion.
Both clomid and nolva will bind to the estrogen receptors in the hypothalmus equally well.

[Swifto]

It's not rubbish and you are entitled to your opinion.
Both clomid and nolva will bind to the estrogen receptors in the hypothalmus equally well.

Yeah...

And some are more active in breast tissue than others, whilst others are more active in the pituitary.

[LATS60]

Yeah...

And some are more active in breast tissue than others, whilst others are more active in the pituitary.

Point being.
http://www.health-up-online.com/2007...imulation.html

[peachfuzz]

Yeah...

And some are more active in breast tissue than others, whilst others are more active in the pituitary.

clomid actually exerts slight estrogenic effects on the pituitary. nolvadex does not.

[peachfuzz]

Point being.
http://www.health-up-online.com/2007...imulation.html

took this from there.

These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment).

BAM!

regardless both sides can argue there point. nolva vs clomid is like arguing politics. everyone is entitled to research and form their own opinion. IMO nolva and clomid can be used interchangably for HPTA recovery. I favor nolva because i tolerate it better as do most people. also dont get the mood swings.

[Dizz28]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. .......


So the statement "nolva is more effective then Clomid" would be true in any circumstance being that is as effective at only 1/7th the dose you would need with clomid. That, and when you take into account the side effects (most) people would encounter at that dose, IMO it's not worth taking

I personally won't take clomid again unless nothing else was available

[Older lifter]

Love it when posts get like this, a great way to learn..........

Just want to say thanks all....

[Swifto]

http://www.mind and muscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=28394&hl=clomid

Regarding toxicity. Look at the responses from Benson:

http://www.mind and muscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=35124&hl=clomid

[Roshambo]

I'm currently taking 50mg of Clomid ed and 20mg of Nolva ed. LOL, one's gotta work eventually in getting my numbers back up high enough to knock her up. I also agree with both sides, both have been shown to work, whilst some opinions are obiously more influenced by one Drug to another.

[Dizz28]

I already read that study, my arguement isn't that clomid doesn't work... It's that it isn't as effective as Nolva is. That study doesn't compare the effectivness of each to each other.

The one I posted does and states "20 mg/day for 10 days......comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate"

And also, did you read the post right under the one you are referring to.....

[Swifto]

I already read that study, my arguement isn't that clomid doesn't work... It's that it isn't as effective as Nolva is. That study doesn't compare the effectivness of each to each other.

The one I posted does and states "20 mg/day for 10 days......comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate"

And also, did you read the post right under the one you are referring to.....

The study is on "normal males", not hypogondal males. In hypogondal males, Clomid has been proven time and time again. Its the first line of attack for Endo's around the world, Tamox isnt.

The latest options and future agents for treating male hypogonadism.Edelstein D, Sivanandy M, Shahani S, Basaria S.
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Bayview Medical Center, 5200 Eastern Avenue, Mason F Lord Building, 4th Floor, Suite 4300, Baltimore, Maryland 21224, USA.

Exogenous testosterone has long been used in medicine as a pharmaceutical agent. Its use in hypogonadism is well characterized and its development as a drug has undergone several modifications in an attempt to achieve clinical success. As native testosterone is rapidly degraded, modified analogs have been developed to obtain a better pharmacokinetic profile. The developmental goals of testosterone analogs have evolved since its first introduction as an orally available form to longer acting and more stable forms such as injectables, depots and transdermal therapies. Several modalities of testosterone replacement are presently available, each differentiated by their route of delivery, half life, cost and ability to deliver physiologic levels of testosterone . As hypogonadism is often a life-long condition, physicians are compelled to use an appropriate therapy that best matches the needs of their patients. An ideal testosterone therapy should be able to deliver physiologic levels of testosterone and be safe, simple to use and cost effective. Present trends show transdermal therapies (gels and patches) along with long-acting injectables, such as Nebido, are quickly replacing intramuscular testosterone modalities. Compounds such as dihydrotestosterone, human chorionic gonadotropin, aromatase inhibitors and clomiphene are presently being studied in specific subgroups of men. Additionally, several new compounds, such as selective androgen-receptor modulators and 7-alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone, are being developed to target androgen receptors in specific tissues. A further understanding of the androgen receptor and subsequent discovery of targeted drugs may yield more individualized treatment modalities. This will enhance the effectiveness of available therapies, while mitigating their undesirable effects.

PMID: 18001258 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Complete reversal of adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism with clomiphene citrate.Ioannidou-Kadis S, Wright PJ, Neely RD, Quinton R.
Department of Endocrinology, Royal Victoria Infirmary and University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, United Kingdom.

OBJECTIVE: Inhibition of pituitary gonadotropin secretion in men by T is principally mediated by aromatization to estrogen (E), which inhibits hypothalamic secretion of GnRH. We hypothesized that adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) might result from an altered central set-point for E-mediated negative feedback. DESIGN AND SETTING: Longitudinal clinical investigation unit-based evaluation of the clinical and biochemical response to E-receptor blockade. PATIENT(S): A 31-year-old man presenting with an 18-month history of sexual dysfunction resulting from severe adult-onset IHH (LH 1.7 U/L, FSH 2.0 U/L, T 3.5 nmol/L). INTERVENTION(S): Initial therapy with 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) three times a day for 7 days, with overnight LH pulse profiling and 9 am T levels evaluated at baseline and on completion. A 2-month washout period, followed by low-dose maintenance therapy (25-50 mg/d) for 4 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Baseline and stimulated T levels and LH pulsatility; effect on sexual function. RESULT(S): Clomiphene therapy resulted in complete normalization of pulsatile gonadotropin secretion, serum T level, and sexual function. CONCLUSION(S): Isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism may result from an acquired defect of enhanced hypothalamic sensitivity to E-mediated negative feedback. Whereas direct T replacement therapy can further suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, treating IHH men with gonadotropins can stimulate endogenous T secretion and enhance fertility potential. On theoretical grounds, reversal of gonadotropin deficiency with CC might be expected to have a similar biological effect.

[LATS60]

The study is on "normal males", not hypogondal males. In hypogondal males, Clomid has been proven time and time again. Its the first line of attack for Endo's around the world, Tamox isnt.

The latest options and future agents for treating male hypogonadism.Edelstein D, Sivanandy M, Shahani S, Basaria S.
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Bayview Medical Center, 5200 Eastern Avenue, Mason F Lord Building, 4th Floor, Suite 4300, Baltimore, Maryland 21224, USA.

Exogenous testosterone has long been used in medicine as a pharmaceutical agent. Its use in hypogonadism is well characterized and its development as a drug has undergone several modifications in an attempt to achieve clinical success. As native testosterone is rapidly degraded, modified analogs have been developed to obtain a better pharmacokinetic profile. The developmental goals of testosterone analogs have evolved since its first introduction as an orally available form to longer acting and more stable forms such as injectables, depots and transdermal therapies. Several modalities of testosterone replacement are presently available, each differentiated by their route of delivery, half life, cost and ability to deliver physiologic levels of testosterone . As hypogonadism is often a life-long condition, physicians are compelled to use an appropriate therapy that best matches the needs of their patients. An ideal testosterone therapy should be able to deliver physiologic levels of testosterone and be safe, simple to use and cost effective. Present trends show transdermal therapies (gels and patches) along with long-acting injectables, such as Nebido, are quickly replacing intramuscular testosterone modalities. Compounds such as dihydrotestosterone, human chorionic gonadotropin, aromatase inhibitors and clomiphene are presently being studied in specific subgroups of men. Additionally, several new compounds, such as selective androgen-receptor modulators and 7-alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone, are being developed to target androgen receptors in specific tissues. A further understanding of the androgen receptor and subsequent discovery of targeted drugs may yield more individualized treatment modalities. This will enhance the effectiveness of available therapies, while mitigating their undesirable effects.

PMID: 18001258 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Complete reversal of adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism with clomiphene citrate.Ioannidou-Kadis S, Wright PJ, Neely RD, Quinton R.
Department of Endocrinology, Royal Victoria Infirmary and University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, United Kingdom.

OBJECTIVE: Inhibition of pituitary gonadotropin secretion in men by T is principally mediated by aromatization to estrogen (E), which inhibits hypothalamic secretion of GnRH. We hypothesized that adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) might result from an altered central set-point for E-mediated negative feedback. DESIGN AND SETTING: Longitudinal clinical investigation unit-based evaluation of the clinical and biochemical response to E-receptor blockade. PATIENT(S): A 31-year-old man presenting with an 18-month history of sexual dysfunction resulting from severe adult-onset IHH (LH 1.7 U/L, FSH 2.0 U/L, T 3.5 nmol/L). INTERVENTION(S): Initial therapy with 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) three times a day for 7 days, with overnight LH pulse profiling and 9 am T levels evaluated at baseline and on completion. A 2-month washout period, followed by low-dose maintenance therapy (25-50 mg/d) for 4 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Baseline and stimulated T levels and LH pulsatility; effect on sexual function. RESULT(S): Clomiphene therapy resulted in complete normalization of pulsatile gonadotropin secretion, serum T level, and sexual function. CONCLUSION(S): Isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism may result from an acquired defect of enhanced hypothalamic sensitivity to E-mediated negative feedback. Whereas direct T replacement therapy can further suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, treating IHH men with gonadotropins can stimulate endogenous T secretion and enhance fertility potential. On theoretical grounds, reversal of gonadotropin deficiency with CC might be expected to have a similar biological effect.

Wake up bro.........

[LATS60]

The study is on "normal males", not hypogondal males. In hypogondal males, Clomid has been proven time and time again. Its the first line of attack for Endo's around the world, Tamox isnt.

The latest options and future agents for treating male hypogonadism.Edelstein D, Sivanandy M, Shahani S, Basaria S.
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Bayview Medical Center, 5200 Eastern Avenue, Mason F Lord Building, 4th Floor, Suite 4300, Baltimore, Maryland 21224, USA.

Exogenous testosterone has long been used in medicine as a pharmaceutical agent. Its use in hypogonadism is well characterized and its development as a drug has undergone several modifications in an attempt to achieve clinical success. As native testosterone is rapidly degraded, modified analogs have been developed to obtain a better pharmacokinetic profile. The developmental goals of testosterone analogs have evolved since its first introduction as an orally available form to longer acting and more stable forms such as injectables, depots and transdermal therapies. Several modalities of testosterone replacement are presently available, each differentiated by their route of delivery, half life, cost and ability to deliver physiologic levels of testosterone . As hypogonadism is often a life-long condition, physicians are compelled to use an appropriate therapy that best matches the needs of their patients. An ideal testosterone therapy should be able to deliver physiologic levels of testosterone and be safe, simple to use and cost effective. Present trends show transdermal therapies (gels and patches) along with long-acting injectables, such as Nebido, are quickly replacing intramuscular testosterone modalities. Compounds such as dihydrotestosterone, human chorionic gonadotropin, aromatase inhibitors and clomiphene are presently being studied in specific subgroups of men. Additionally, several new compounds, such as selective androgen-receptor modulators and 7-alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone, are being developed to target androgen receptors in specific tissues. A further understanding of the androgen receptor and subsequent discovery of targeted drugs may yield more individualized treatment modalities. This will enhance the effectiveness of available therapies, while mitigating their undesirable effects.

PMID: 18001258 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Complete reversal of adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism with clomiphene citrate.Ioannidou-Kadis S, Wright PJ, Neely RD, Quinton R.
Department of Endocrinology, Royal Victoria Infirmary and University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, United Kingdom.

OBJECTIVE: Inhibition of pituitary gonadotropin secretion in men by T is principally mediated by aromatization to estrogen (E), which inhibits hypothalamic secretion of GnRH. We hypothesized that adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) might result from an altered central set-point for E-mediated negative feedback. DESIGN AND SETTING: Longitudinal clinical investigation unit-based evaluation of the clinical and biochemical response to E-receptor blockade. PATIENT(S): A 31-year-old man presenting with an 18-month history of sexual dysfunction resulting from severe adult-onset IHH (LH 1.7 U/L, FSH 2.0 U/L, T 3.5 nmol/L). INTERVENTION(S): Initial therapy with 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) three times a day for 7 days, with overnight LH pulse profiling and 9 am T levels evaluated at baseline and on completion. A 2-month washout period, followed by low-dose maintenance therapy (25-50 mg/d) for 4 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Baseline and stimulated T levels and LH pulsatility; effect on sexual function. RESULT(S): Clomiphene therapy resulted in complete normalization of pulsatile gonadotropin secretion, serum T level, and sexual function. CONCLUSION(S): Isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism may result from an acquired defect of enhanced hypothalamic sensitivity to E-mediated negative feedback. Whereas direct T replacement therapy can further suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, treating IHH men with gonadotropins can stimulate endogenous T secretion and enhance fertility potential. On theoretical grounds, reversal of gonadotropin deficiency with CC might be expected to have a similar biological effect.

Thats one hell of a PCT,, Thank god for nolva.

[Dizz28]

Interesting read, thanks Swifto

Although, again, it's at 150mg/day in which I refer back to post 14 & 18

Clomid is already marketed as a fertility drug, albiet mostly for females but also males. Nolva has settled into the role of treating breast cancer in women...Even though they could both be used interchangably. This is probably the reason they are maily used for those specific roles and the majority of studies has been done with thier on-label uses

[Swifto]

Wake up bro.........

No, you need to wake up if you think Tamox is better for males wanting to increase LH, FSH and T after using androgens (secondary hypogonadism).

Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone /estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.

Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.
Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.
AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy . This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia , nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

[LATS60]

Jesus mate, to raise those levels you need to block the estrogen receptors at the hypothalmus, nolva has a much better affinity for binding to those receptors than clomid.
Thats why clomid is used mainly for fertility issues and nolva for cancer, because it binds to the receptors better and in much lower dosages,, thats a medical FACT.
I still think that clomid PCT of 4mths and three wks i highlighted was proof enough.

[peachfuzz]

No, you need to wake up if you think Tamox is better for males wanting to increase LH, FSH and T after using androgens (secondary hypogonadism).

Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone /estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.

Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.
Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.
AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

again this says nothing in comparison to nolva. no one said clomid didnt work. we said nolva is superior. read the studies posted already.

[Dizz28]

ugh, this debate is like politics and religion...just gets rediculous after a while...this thread needs to stop. We've seen plenty of evidence for both sides, we can keep beating this dead horse i suppose........

[peachfuzz]

as i said in post #13

[EmilianoH]

what about anastrozol ?

[Dizz28]

you did, didn't you peach.... i guess i just reiterated it

Emiliano, different class of medication. Doesn't boost production

[Stoneco|d]

I did enough research and still can't find a solid answer lol. Friend of mine told me Clomid is by far better. My source also told me Clomid is a lot better and nolva would affect my gains. He just said words like what you guys are using lol, don't understand shit. He told me to try Clomid one cycle and Nolva on another ... he swore I'll keep more gains with clomid and keep my protein high.

Of course there are my other friends who like nolva better cause Clomid have a lot of sides.

[peachfuzz]

I did enough research and still can't find a solid answer lol. Friend of mine told me Clomid is by far better. My source also told me Clomid is a lot better and nolva would affect my gains. He just said words like what you guys are using lol, don't understand shit. He told me to try Clomid one cycle and Nolva on another ... he swore I'll keep more gains with clomid and keep my protein high.

Of course there are my other friends who like nolva better cause Clomid have a lot of sides.

I dont even know where to start...

so you get your advice from your friends and your source?

[Dizz28]

taking advice from a source is the way to go....they always tell you exactly what you need to buy....

[redz]

I use both together with an ai but either or is good. I think everyone reacts differently and if one works better than the other for you than great keep using it!

[redz]

they always tell you exactly what you need to buy....

Yeah what they are selling currently......

[Stoneco|d]

I trust my source, he's a personal friend of mine ... knew him for a long time. He could have told me to get both but from his experience, told me to try Clomid. I have nolva still from last cycle. He could have made more money but he chose not to. I used Nolva last cycle and I liked it but never tried Clomid. So I can't tell which is better or not.