Test with Deca...

**adude006** · 01-19-2009, 07:34 PM

I currently take propecia for hairloss so am really stuck. I want to try deca so I have two Cycle options:

1) Test 500, Deca 300 (with propecia)
2) Deca 500, Test 250 (without propecia)

Which cycle will be better for the hair? In the 1st cycle, can 300mg deca actually interact with propecia and cause a major issue?

**DrSauce99** · 01-19-2009, 07:35 PM

**** propecia, I used to love it, gives u a limp weiner

**vishus** · 01-19-2009, 07:40 PM

ide stick with cycle #1, if youre going to cycle again, hair loss might be ineviatable.....

**Mammon** · 01-19-2009, 07:43 PM

yeah i agree.. #1

**IAMCDN** · 01-19-2009, 07:49 PM

just shave your head, you'll look bigger!!!!!

**davpet** · 01-19-2009, 08:27 PM

Cycle 1.

Yes, propecia prevents the conversion of nandrolone to the less androgenic DHN.

But it's only nandrolone, not some evil type of DHT, so it's not going to scalp you.

**adude006** · 01-19-2009, 08:52 PM

The question is then comparing DHN androgenic profile... (I cant find any info on the net at all on DHN, apart from few writes ups on forums,e tc but no real detailed profile), so how androgenic/anabolic is it compared to Test & DHT?

I know Test causes little shedding (I'v cycled 4 times before with Test, EQ & var) and have lost little hair so if DHN is stronger then Test then the chances are high for more hair loss, if it's weaker than Test then the chances are low....

Dam, someone should write a good solid detailed profile on DHN!

**Mammon** · 01-19-2009, 09:08 PM

some confilcting information..

people often make the mistake of equating high androgen receptor (AR) binding affinity with androgenicity, probably because DHT possesses both properties. There is a notion, likely started by this paper (1) that the 5 alpha reduced version of nandrolone is a weaker androgen than the parent compound. The opposite is true with testosterone . Hence the often read admonition not to combine finasteride with Deca , because it would be bad for the hair and prostate. To quote from (1),

"In the accessory sex organs (e.g. the prostate) testosterone is 5 alpha-reduced to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) which, due to its higher affinity for androgen receptors (AR), amplifies the action of testosterone. In contrast, when 19-nortestosterone (NT) is 5 alpha-reduced, its affinity for AR decreases, resulting in a decrease in its androgenic potency."

In other In vivo studies the picture is different (2). Quoting from this paper,

"The results of AR binding studies revealed that 5alpha-reduction of T and ET significantly enhanced their affinities, and that the 5alpha-derivative of 19norT displayed a similar binding affinity to that exhibited by 19norT. In terms of biological activity, the results showed that 5alpha-reduction of T and 19norT significantly increased their androgenic potency..."

Here androgenic potency was determined in part by action on the prostate. So these two papers are completely at odds with one another, and I wouldn't assume that the commonly held belief that 5 alpha reduced nandrolone is a weaker androgen than the parent compound is necessarily true.

If you are worried about your prostate, avoid agents that are subject to 5 alpha reduction, and that have a low anabolic /androgenic ratio.

(1) J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1995 Jun;53(1-6):253-7.
Different patterns of metabolism determine the relative anabolic activity of 19-norandrogens.
Sundaram K, Kumar N, Monder C, Bardin CW.

(2) J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1997 Jan;60(1-2):121-9.
5alpha-reduction of norethisterone enhances its binding affinity for androgen receptors but diminishes its androgenic potency.
Lemus AE, Enriquez J, Garcia GA, Grillasca I, Perez-Palacios G

when you use nandrolone without finasteride, it has a very high anabolic/androgenic ratio; I'm having a hard time believing that it would have a ratio even higher when taken with finasteride.
The second study introduces very interesting data: "the 5alpha-derivative of 19norT displayed a similar binding affinity to that exhibited by 19norT", I think that concept is completely new for most of us, who thought that DHN had a much smaller binding affinity than Nandrolone ... however, I still find very odd the fact that, if DHN has such a high binding affinity for the AR, nandrolone has such a high anabolic/androgenic ratio... you can argue that it's probably due to the fact that DHN has a much higher ability to activate genes that promote anabolism than to activate genes that promote androgenity, but, even in that case, we are talking about twice the AR binding affinity testosterone has ... and an anabolic/androgenic ratio really high... This is very, very odd to say the least.
Moreover, if nandrolone's ratio is around 20/1 ... if we combine it with a 5AR blocker what ratio would we get? 80/1? very odd....

**adude006** · 01-19-2009, 11:58 PM

80/1? Is that a possibility? And even if it is, how strong is 300mg of deca in its non 5ar form to cause major hair damage? I noe 500 mg of test wont make me lose hair but 700 does. So i say 500mg is the good safe doage. Can the same be said for 300mg deca when used with propecia?

I'm pretty sure out of the millions of people who have used this drug someone must have used it with proscar/propecia, so any feedback from these people?

**mick86** · 01-22-2009, 10:10 AM

bump..I'm also interested on any feedback.

**adude006** · 01-24-2009, 02:25 AM

Yea, i'm sure someone must have used Test/Deca with a 5ar blocker. I don't want to be the Guinea pig & try it out but i guess i might have to if no one replies!

**mick86** · 01-24-2009, 10:46 AM

I ran it with test twice without a 5ar blocker then on my 3rd cycle i dropped it for fear of hair loss. I'm considering putting it back into my next one but keeping the cycle short. I'd either use finasteride like in the past or dutasteride.

**adude006** · 01-25-2009, 01:46 AM

I don't see how you will run a short cycle with deca in it? It will be atleast 10 weeks right? I'm going for a 12 week cycle of Deca 300, Test 500 & Anavar 100mg (1st 7 weeks) + 1.25mg propecia.

There is so much scare going on about mixing deca with a 5ar, however most people who I know in real life & have been juicing for a long time say it's ok to mix finasteride with Deca AND Test together, but not to mix it if I am using only Deca. But these guys never use a 5ar as they dont have hair issues, so come'on more people share your thoughts.remember I'm taling with using it with Deca& Test, not only Deca.

If not, come back here in 3 months, i'll post the hair results after my cycle.

**MuscleScience** · 01-25-2009, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mammon

some confilcting information..

when you use nandrolone without finasteride, it has a very high anabolic /androgenic ratio; I'm having a hard time believing that it would have a ratio even higher when taken with finasteride.
The second study introduces very interesting data: "the 5alpha-derivative of 19norT displayed a similar binding affinity to that exhibited by 19norT", I think that concept is completely new for most of us, who thought that DHN had a much smaller binding affinity than Nandrolone ... however, I still find very odd the fact that, if DHN has such a high binding affinity for the AR, nandrolone has such a high anabolic/androgenic ratio... you can argue that it's probably due to the fact that DHN has a much higher ability to activate genes that promote anabolism than to activate genes that promote androgenity, but, even in that case, we are talking about twice the AR binding affinity testosterone has ... and an anabolic/androgenic ratio really high... This is very, very odd to say the least.
Moreover, if nandrolone's ratio is around 20/1 ... if we combine it with a 5AR blocker what ratio would we get? 80/1? very odd....

Thats science for you....

**sitries** · 01-25-2009, 06:48 AM

im currently using test deca and finasteride with no hairloss issues at all. IT IS A MYTH THAT YOU CANT USE A 5AR BLOCKER WITH TEST AND DECA!!!!!!!

It is just a rumour caused by confusion. The actual story goes like this..................if you are using deca alone, then there is no point using a 5ar blocker because a 5ar blocker will convert nandrolone into DHN which is more androgenic than nandrolone itself. therefore there is no point!!!!!

If you are using test and deca, then you need to use a 5ar blocker to stop the test converting into the dreaded, more powerful DHT. The fact that the 5ar blocker will also convert your nandrolone to DHN doesnt matter in this case because DHN is much less androgenic than DHT!! therefore is more important to block the DHT as its more detrimental to your hairline.

hope this clears up a MYTH that i also previously half believed until i dug a little deeper.

**adude006** · 01-25-2009, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by sitries

im currently using test deca and finasteride with no hairloss issues at all. IT IS A MYTH THAT YOU CANT USE A 5AR BLOCKER WITH TEST AND DECA!!!!!!!

It is just a rumour caused by confusion. The actual story goes like this..................if you are using deca alone, then there is no point using a 5ar blocker because a 5ar blocker will convert nandrolone into DHN which is more androgenic than nandrolone itself. therefore there is no point!!!!!

If you are using test and deca, then you need to use a 5ar blocker to stop the test converting into the dreaded, more powerful DHT. The fact that the 5ar blocker will also convert your nandrolone to DHN doesnt matter in this case because DHN is much less androgenic than DHT!! therefore is more important to block the DHT as its more detrimental to your hairline.

hope this clears up a MYTH that i also previously half believed until i dug a little deeper.

Awesome dude! You just made my day!

How much Test/Deca & finasteride are you using?

**mick86** · 01-26-2009, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by sitries

im currently using test deca and finasteride with no hairloss issues at all. IT IS A MYTH THAT YOU CANT USE A 5AR BLOCKER WITH TEST AND DECA!!!!!!!

It is just a rumour caused by confusion. The actual story goes like this..................if you are using deca alone, then there is no point using a 5ar blocker because a 5ar blocker will convert nandrolone into DHN which is more androgenic than nandrolone itself. therefore there is no point!!!!!

If you are using test and deca, then you need to use a 5ar blocker to stop the test converting into the dreaded, more powerful DHT. The fact that the 5ar blocker will also convert your nandrolone to DHN doesnt matter in this case because DHN is much less androgenic than DHT!! therefore is more important to block the DHT as its more detrimental to your hairline.

hope this clears up a MYTH that i also previously half believed until i dug a little deeper.

Thanks mate, wish I had read that before I started my last cycle, very useful information.

**sitries** · 01-28-2009, 01:44 PM

no probs. i went through the same doubts as you guys, but i researched it and its definately a myth!!!

im using 500mg enanthate , 400mg deca and 1mg finasteride every 2or3days (i dont like to use to much coz it ****s with ur sex drive and increases gyno). if i noticed any shedding i would just ramp up the dose. all good so far 7weeks in.

**adude006** · 02-18-2009, 11:59 PM

Thought i'll post an update. Week 3 now of deca 400,test 500 & var 100, no shedding at all when i am 100% mbp prone. Just using 1 propecia tab a day. So far the deca+propecia = major hairloss seems like a myth!