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**Dog-Slime** · 08-19-2009, 07:13 PM

I cant pick who can win a fight because im not a bjj black belt.

That is hilarious... Wonder how I keep making money betting on fights? Must be luck...

Also did you see royce fight matt hughes? BJJ is not the end all be all of martial arts and I promise that if Lee coulda fought Helio he would have embarassed him a lot more than Hughes did Royce...

And to Yucon92: EVERY pro sport is littered with steroids . Sure there are some that don't but to think that MOST don't take them is absurd. I mean guys take steroids just to bench more than their buddies you dont think guys who's jobs require being physically fit are MUCH more inclined to take the plunge? Oh and I believe (atleast up until recently not sure if this is still accurate) that the fights in California were the only ones being drug tested. But even with testing theres always gonna be abuse.

**Dog-Slime** · 08-19-2009, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by gunslinger2

Yes he did.

Steroids are all over MMA.

Why because he looked good on TV and could kick and make funny sounds?

Anytime you care to put that to the test let me know. But I understand what you are saying.

No because he was incredibly fast, accurate, and unbelievably powerful. Not to mention highly skilled. If you think Bruce Lee was just an actor then put down the crack pipe.

**gunslinger2** · 08-19-2009, 08:43 PM

No because he was incredibly fast, accurate, and unbelievably powerful. Not to mention highly skilled. If you think Bruce Lee was just an actor then put down the crack pipe.

He was all of those things. But he was no more highly skilled than some of todays fighters and less well rounded. I think people confuse what he did on screen with what he could do in real life. Let me ask you this, how many top fighters did Bruce beat in his day and do you have video proof of these fights? No. So, how can he be considered the best fighter of all time or for that matter, even one of these best fighters of all time, who did he fight to earn that title?

Also did you see royce fight matt hughes? BJJ is not the end all be all of martial arts

Do you not under that Matt Hughes was using BJJ against Royce and without Royce and the Gracie family he would have been as helpless on the ground as all the guys Royce fought in the first few UFCs.

No one knew what the hell was going on when the fight hit the ground until the Gracies came along, and that includes wrestlers. Matt Hughes beat Royce with a good combo of ground skills and strength. Also Matt Hughes Hyper trains Jiu-jitsu. If you have good skills and add in size and strength thats a deadly combo.

**SayIWont21** · 08-19-2009, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by yucon92

well i guess everyone on here thinks their a mma fighter and knows everything about mma yall make it sound like they all do steroids and that is retarted cause they dont,most of them dont not in the ufc anyways maybe some of or all of underground sh*t is you dont need steroids to be a fighter what about bj penn destroying sean sherk? you think hes on steroids/haha

im not saying theres any thing wrong with steroids,i love them but when there are guys that devote their life to the sport and train and diet their ass's off and play by the rules of the sport explain how thats fair

Provide The Proof That MMA Fighters Dont Do Gear.............. Thats Right, You Dont Know That... check this out

"Two mixed martial arts fighters, Sean Sherk and Hermes Franca, ;

They have been suspended and fined for use of steroids, stated the California State Athletic Commission"
"The state conducted drug tests and found Sherk with traces of Nandrolone Metabolite and Franca with Drostanolone, an anabolic agent. "

"Welterweight Anthony Torres tested positive for the anabolic steroid Boldenone following his first round technical knockout loss to Jess Liaudin at UFC 75: “Champion vs. Champion” on September 8"

"Heavyweight Kimo Leopoldo tested positive for steroids after his Ultimate Fighting Championships bout June 19 at Mandalay Bay, dealing the fledgling mixed martial arts organization "a devastating blow. Leopoldo tested positive for the steroid Stanozolol , as well as ephedrine, pseudoephedrine and phenylpropanolamine, after his June 19 loss to Ken Shamrock. Leopoldo's telephone would not accept calls Friday. "

"Barnett was the first UFC fighter to test positive for steroids after his successful title bid against then-heavyweight champion Randy Couture on March 22, 2002"

"Sylvia, at the time the UFC's unbeaten heavyweight champion, tested positive for Stanozolol after his Sept. 26 victory over Gan McGee."

"Unlike most other major American sports, MMA has had a number of well-known persons fail tests. Compare the fact that three UFC champions have failed drug tests - along with an MMA legend in Royce Gracie, just to name a few -"

"UFC has run three events in Nevada, where there is regular drug testing, one in Texas, where there was no testing, one in England, again where there was no testing, one in Northern Ireland where there is no athletic commission but an independent lab was reportedly brought in to oversee the testing process, and two shows in Florida where there is testing"

THE LIST GOES ON! THATS UFC! YOUR SOO CALLED TOP MMA FIGHTERS RIGHT?

"The perception that UFC fighters routinely take steroids, White said, is wrong and is hurting the organization."

"White said he can't understand how fighters keep testing positive even though they know Nevada tests for steroids. But White denied steroids are solely a UFC problem."

**SayIWont21** · 08-19-2009, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by gunslinger2

he was all of those things. But he was no more highly skilled than some of todays fighters and less well rounded. I think people confuse what he did on screen with what he could do in real life. Let me ask you this, how many top fighters did bruce beat in his day and do you have video proof of these fights? No. So, how can he be considered the best fighter of all time or for that matter, even one of these best fighters of all time, who did he fight to earn that title?

Do you not under that matt hughes was using bjj against royce and without royce and the gracie family he would have been as helpless on the ground as all the guys royce fought in the first few ufcs.

No one knew what the hell was going on when the fight hit the ground until the gracies came along, and that includes wrestlers. Matt hughes beat royce with a good combo of ground skills and strength. Also matt hughes hyper trains jiu-jitsu. If you have good skills and add in size and strength thats a deadly combo.

dude chuck norris whipped bruce lee!!!

**Dog-Slime** · 08-20-2009, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by gunslinger2

He was all of those things. But he was no more highly skilled than some of todays fighters and less well rounded. I think people confuse what he did on screen with what he could do in real life. Let me ask you this, how many top fighters did Bruce beat in his day and do you have video proof of these fights? No. So, how can he be considered the best fighter of all time or for that matter, even one of these best fighters of all time, who did he fight to earn that title?

Do you not under that Matt Hughes was using BJJ against Royce and without Royce and the Gracie family he would have been as helpless on the ground as all the guys Royce fought in the first few UFCs.

No one knew what the hell was going on when the fight hit the ground until the Gracies came along, and that includes wrestlers. Matt Hughes beat Royce with a good combo of ground skills and strength. Also Matt Hughes Hyper trains Jiu-jitsu. If you have good skills and add in size and strength thats a deadly combo.

Um have you ever seen or heard about Bruce Lees strength demonstrations when giving large seminars? He could knock a man off his feet and onto his ass with a punch from one inch away. Its not like he was kinda strong for his size or quicker than MOST people. No doubt he would fare very well against any fighter his weight from this day and age.

And Hughes did use a lil jj but it was obviously the WRESTLING and STRIKING that won the fight...

**BJJ** · 08-20-2009, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by SayIWont21;481***1

dude chuck norris whipped bruce lee!!!

Then you agree with him!

**BJJ** · 08-20-2009, 02:30 AM

Dog-Slime
I cant pick who can win a fight because im not a bjj black belt. That is hilarious... Wonder how I keep making money betting on fights? Must be luck...
Surely it is not luck but how many BJJ BB have you defeated?

Also did you see royce fight matt hughes?
Yes I did and can tell you he won using what his teacher (Gracie's family) taught him, so BJJ and strength dosage. Furthermore, he won because the referee supervisor stopped the match, giving Hughes a technical victory. Royce was not finalized but even if he was, how many mma fighters he defeated previously that match? After all he is just a human being and his "disciple" beat him.

I promise that if Lee coulda fought Helio he would have embarassed him...
Simply you cannot promise anything you are unaware of!

...would have embarassed him a lot more than Hughes did Royce...
Actually, I felt embarassed for Hughes since he was unable to conclude a simple arm bar once he was in a perfect position to do it. That's embarassing, of course if you've got the technical eyes to judge it! haven't you?

yucon92
im not saying theres any thing wrong with steroids ,i love them but when there are guys that devote their life to the sport and train and diet their ass's off and play by the rules of the sport explain how thats fair
There is not real sport if money is behind. Your statement would be goodly appreciated in another world with other rules, in our own, especially nowadays, money is the first priority!

**gunslinger2** · 08-20-2009, 06:30 AM

Um have you ever seen or heard about Bruce Lees strength demonstrations when giving large seminars? He could knock a man off his feet and onto his ass with a punch from one inch away. Its not like he was kinda strong for his size or quicker than MOST people. No doubt he would fare very well against any fighter his weight from this day and age.

Again you are basing his fighting ability off of demonstrations and seminars. Again I ask you, who did he ever fight? I dare say fighters in his weight class today such as Mike Brown , Miguel Torres, and Urijah Faber would murder him in the first round.

Its all well and good to respect someone for what they have done for martial arts but you have to remain realistic.

**Dog-Slime** · 08-20-2009, 10:08 AM

Ok yall are right no way to prove who would have won the fight but I think to discredit the man just because MMA was not a thing of his time and he didn't "prove" himself in yalls mind by kicking a bunch of peoples asses on recorded video is kinda silly.

As for the Hughes thing you are an idiot if you think he could not have won that fight with no JJ. He took him down (with his wrestling), controlled him on the ground (with his wrestling), went for a kimura (jj) but let it go after a loud popping and tearing noise and still no tap (not embarassing because royce doesn't tap), then began dropping elbows (striking), royce rolled over and he punched his head in till the ref stopped it (again STRIKING). He could just as easily have beat him without the attempted kimura so please I know JJ is good and I have a lotta respect for it but like I said its not the end all be all of fighting.

Oh and since you asked I have beat a bjj bbs ass before in a real fight but I dont think that has shit to do with what is being discussed.

**gunslinger2** · 08-20-2009, 10:44 AM

Ok yall are right no way to prove who would have won the fight but I think to discredit the man just because MMA was not a thing of his time and he didn't "prove" himself in yalls mind by kicking a bunch of peoples asses on recorded video is kinda silly.

I'm not trying to discredit Lee. I give him all the credit he is due. He changed the way people looked at martial arts and made it main stream. What he did not do was fight and prove his style of fighting against any and everyone, and thats exactly what the Gracie family did. I think calling Lee the greatest fighter or one of the greatest fighters is kinda silly based on what you seen in his movies and on TV. At best its stupid and at worst its an insult to the many great fighters who step up every day to prove themselves.

As for what Hughes used to win: Without a very good understanding of BJJ he would not have been able to control Royce on the ground. The mount and taking the back the way he did are not really trained in wrestling. BJJ for MMA is not just about choking someone or getting an armbar, its about being in a position to throw punches as well. The only wrestling Hughes used in that fight was the takedown.

**BJJ** · 08-20-2009, 11:41 AM

[QUOTE=Dog-Slime;4819789]
As for the Hughes thing you are an idiot if you think... thanks for the nice word but the fact that you think I am an idiot, does not mean I am!

He could just as easily have beat him without the attempted kimura... the attempted kimura failed, so he tried an armbar while on kimura position... at that time he did not even know what he was doing, so excited he was to try winning the match. at the end the encumbrance was all for Hughes who was not able to finalize Royce from that position. I see no submission wrestling in there, I see just a bad day for Gracie, that's it!

Oh and since you asked I have beat a bjj bbs ass before in a real fight but I dont think that has shit to do with what is being discussed. Ok then, Royce lost, so did your opposing. No big deal.

**Dog-Slime** · 08-20-2009, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by gunslinger2

I'm not trying to discredit Lee. I give him all the credit he is due. He changed the way people looked at martial arts and made it main stream. What he did not do was fight and prove his style of fighting against any and everyone, and thats exactly what the Gracie family did. I think calling Lee the greatest fighter or one of the greatest fighters is kinda silly based on what you seen in his movies and on TV. At best its stupid and at worst its an insult to the many great fighters who step up every day to prove themselves.

As for what Hughes used to win: Without a very good understanding of BJJ he would not have been able to control Royce on the ground. The mount and taking the back the way he did are not really trained in wrestling. BJJ for MMA is not just about choking someone or getting an armbar, its about being in a position to throw punches as well. The only wrestling Hughes used in that fight was the takedown.

Yes I am sure ANY form of sitting on a man or taking control of him on the ground is JJ

A damn 3rd grader can figure out the mount without 1 damn lick of JJ training in fact I have seen it done on the playground way before anyone(most people) even knew who the Gracies were.

I RESPECT JJ AND ITS ROLE IN MMA BUT ITS NOT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS. GD if you cant understand the fact that it was his superior wrestling and striking that won the fight then find some other sport to be a fan of. I am no idiot and realize that its MIXED martial arts and that just about everybody trains JJ but thats not what won that fight. But the guys who are the best at jj or rely pretty much solely on JJ are not the ones who have the titles except for Penn (who is still a good striker). The rest got there by their wrestling and/or striking so like I said JJ is not the end all be all of MMA.

I am done with this thread so leave any comment you want as I will not be back to respond.

**gunslinger2** · 08-20-2009, 01:40 PM

Yes I am sure ANY form of sitting on a man or taking control of him on the ground is JJ A damn 3rd grader can figure out the mount without 1 damn lick of JJ training in fact I have seen it done on the playground way before anyone(most people) even knew who the Gracies were.

Again I say if Hughes had not trained BJJ he would not have been able to control Gracie on the ground. Dan Severn was a very good wrestler also and lost to Gracie due to a triangle choke. Why? Because he had no idea what Jiu-jitsu was or how to counter it.

I RESPECT JJ AND ITS ROLE IN MMA BUT ITS NOT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS.

Never said it was. These days you need to be very well rounded to be a top MMA fighter.

But the guys who are the best at jj or rely pretty much solely on JJ are not the ones who have the titles except for Penn (who is still a good striker). The rest got there by their wrestling and/or striking

Hmm, lets look at that for a sec. The top guys: GSP has a black belt in BJJ, BJ Penn is a black belt in BJJ, Anderson silva is a black belt in BJJ, Lyoto Machida is a black belt in BJJ, hmm seems the only top guy who does not have a black belt in BBJ is Brock. Don't know how I could have over looked that. Thanks for pointing that out.

**SayIWont21** · 08-20-2009, 01:42 PM

Unlike most other major American sports, MMA has had a number of well-known persons fail tests. Compare the fact that three UFC champions have failed drug tests - along with an MMA legend in Royce Gracie, just to name a few -"

ENOUGH SAID!

**BJJ** · 08-20-2009, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by gunslinger2

Again I say if Hughes had not trained BJJ he would not have been able to control Gracie on the ground. Dan Severn was a very good wrestler also and lost to Gracie due to a triangle choke. Why? Because he had no idea what Jiu-jitsu was or how to counter it.

Never said it was. These days you need to be very well rounded to be a top MMA fighter.

Hmm, lets look at that for a sec. The top guys: GSP has a black belt in BJJ, BJ Penn is a black belt in BJJ, Anderson silva is a black belt in BJJ, Lyoto Machida is a black belt in BJJ, hmm seems the only top guy who does not have a black belt in BBJ is Brock. Don't know how I could have over looked that. Thanks for pointing that out.

Do AGREE!

**roid_rage** · 08-20-2009, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by .EA.

You can't compare Bruce Lee to Gracie. You can't really compare Bruce Lee to anybody really. He has his own level.

MMA exists today because of Bruce Lee. He has redefined a lot of things. Even boxing.

Agree, bruce lee has his own level, Acting.

MMA exists way before bruce lee was born, pancreation was the first form of MMA, and the Gracies were doing it waaaay before bruce lee.

Bruce lee was a hell of an athlete, and a hell of an actor, but he was no pro fighter, so he should not be even put in the same sentence as a guy like Helio Gracie, who actually proved his style worked actually fighting ppl, not pretending to fight ppl on stage.

Bruce lee JKD in theory kicks ass... and he was no doubt a visionary for his time, but again, was no fighter.

**roid_rage** · 08-20-2009, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dog-Slime

Yes I am sure ANY form of sitting on a man or taking control of him on the ground is JJ

A damn 3rd grader can figure out the mount without 1 damn lick of JJ training in fact I have seen it done on the playground way before anyone(most people) even knew who the Gracies were.

I RESPECT JJ AND ITS ROLE IN MMA BUT ITS NOT THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS. GD if you cant understand the fact that it was his superior wrestling and striking that won the fight then find some other sport to be a fan of. I am no idiot and realize that its MIXED martial arts and that just about everybody trains JJ but thats not what won that fight. But the guys who are the best at jj or rely pretty much solely on JJ are not the ones who have the titles except for Penn (who is still a good striker). The rest got there by their wrestling and/or striking so like I said JJ is not the end all be all of MMA.

I am done with this thread so leave any comment you want as I will not be back to respond.

you are obviusly a wrestling fan, or have done wrestling in the past... well, wrestling as a base is very important, but basing your whole point on Royce vs Hughe is point less, is wasnt the art, it was the fighter... And Royce rolled throught much bigger and stronger wrestlers before Bjj was incorporated to EVERYONES training. Hell, Mir subed a huge beast like Brock, do you even think Fran would've had a shot in the first fight against brock if Brock was the Jitzer and Mir the Wrestler? lol... AS subed Dan freaking Henderson, and AS's wreslitng SUCKS... Dan is one of the better wrestlers ever to ever stepped in a cage or ring. AS's is not even close to be one of the best jitzers in the world. Damian maia just tooled Chael Sonnen, who was a great wrestler him self... should I keep on going?

**BJJ** · 08-20-2009, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by .EA.

You can't compare Bruce Lee to Gracie. You can't really compare Bruce Lee to anybody really. He has his own level. acting

MMA exists today because of Bruce Lee. He has redefined a lot of things. Even boxing.

no sir

You are right I shouldn't have compared Bruce Lee to anyone since he was not the number one as many of you think about him.
The real number one in history of martial arts was a guy named Huo Yuanjia, who lived almost 150 years ago in China and did thing that Mr. Lee made in his own movies! His mistake was to born when there was no TV and mostly no Hollywood. To know this guy you must have a passion on these disciplines... and didn't name it before because by posting to people living in the U.S.A. I couldn't believe such a blindness toward Lee, so it is not for everyone but you can trust in me, well actually you can trust history, and think of him as the real number ONE. After all, Bruce Lee was an actor.
Then, like 70 years later Mr. Gracie came up and changed everything bringing MMA to another level, todays'one.

For those who think I am a lier, go and find info yourself.
You'll see I am right.
Huo Yuanjia number ONE and then Helio Gracie number TWO, two people, two revolutions! That's it.

**gunslinger2** · 08-20-2009, 03:33 PM

How about when Fedor tapped Kevin Randleman with a sweet kimura in pride? Or when he tapped Mark Coleman with an arm bar in less than 3 mins? Both Kevin Randleman and Mark Coleman are two of the top wrestlers in the world yet they were beaten with ease by BJJ.

You are right the list goes on and on.

**roid_rage** · 08-20-2009, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by gunslinger2

How about when Fedor tapped Kevin Randleman with a sweet kimura in pride? Or when he tapped Mark Coleman with an arm bar in less than 3 mins? Both Kevin Randleman and Mark Coleman are two of the top wrestlers in the world yet they were beaten with ease by BJJ.

You are right the list goes on and on.

Sadly, Fedor does not train Bjj, he does Sambo, he said it himself that he does not need BJJ because with Sambo is enough.

**gunslinger2** · 08-20-2009, 03:59 PM

News flash: About 95% of sambo is based off of Jiu-jitsu and Judo. Just because fedor does not put on a Gi and ware a belt does not make the techniques any different.

**johnCash** · 08-20-2009, 04:52 PM

steroids are all over mma. so is hgh. just cause some of them dont look like it doesnt mean they dont use. steroids and lifting weights vs. steroids and training to fight make your body looks different. sean sherk busted for deca . royce gracie busted for deca. thiago alves busted for deca. does anyone think brock lesnar has never stacked test and hgh? he is a freak of nature and no one ever looked like that 10-15 years ago with just juice. josh barnett got busted recently. phil baroni busted years ago. ken shamrock busted recntly. probably others i missed.

**johnCash** · 08-20-2009, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by gunslinger2

Do you not understand that Matt Hughes was using BJJ against Royce and without Royce and the Gracie family he would have been as helpless on the ground as all the guys Royce fought in the first few UFCs.

No one knew what the hell was going on when the fight hit the ground until the Gracies came along, and that includes wrestlers. Matt Hughes beat Royce with a good combo of ground skills and strength. Also Matt Hughes Hyper trains Jiu-jitsu. If you have good skills and add in size and strength thats a deadly combo.

this is 100 % right anyone who disagrees is a fr*kin moron
royce gracie was a normal sized guy at ufc 1 and beat and embarassed all other fighters including wrestlers with just bjj beacause he was the only person using it. now all mma fighters are trained in bjj including matt hughes. matt hughes beat royce gracie because he was a bigger, stronger, younger guy who is trained in all areas of mma not just bjj like royce.

**gunslinger2** · 08-20-2009, 08:08 PM

I think Brock Lesnar is most likely clean right now. I say this because when he was in the WWE he was 305 and cut, now he makes weight at 265 and not a cut in sight.

this is 100 % right anyone who disagrees is a fr*kin moron
royce gracie was a normal sized guy at ufc 1 and beat and embarassed all other fighters including wrestlers with just bjj beacause he was the only person using it. now all mma fighters are trained in bjj including matt hughes. matt hughes beat royce gracie because he was a bigger, stronger, younger guy who is trained in all areas of mma not just bjj like royce.

Its nice to see some people know what the hell is going on.

**bigjsheets** · 08-20-2009, 08:20 PM

Are you trying to use juice to train or are you going to fight on it? If your willing to take a few months off you could get away with using prop. If you want to get mean, add some tren to that. Lol. That s¥@& makes me an a$$hole.

**gunslinger2** · 08-20-2009, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by bigjsheets

Are you trying to use juice to train or are you going to fight on it? If your willing to take a few months off you could get away with using prop. If you want to get mean, add some tren to that. Lol. That s¥@& makes me an a$$hole.

Who is the question for?

**Ironnips** · 08-20-2009, 09:21 PM

Make sure you flush your system out good when you take your drug test. That is if your pro.

**BJJ** · 08-21-2009, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by gunslinger2

I think Brock Lesnar is most likely clean right now. I say this because when he was in the WWE he was 305 and cut, now he makes weight at 265 and not a cut in sight.

Its nice to see some people know what the hell is going on.

I do agree.

**louiscypher** · 08-22-2009, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dog-Slime

No because he was incredibly fast, accurate, and unbelievably powerful. Not to mention highly skilled. If you think Bruce Lee was just an actor then put down the crack pipe.

Goddam right.

**Ashop** · 08-22-2009, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by mma2009tom

hi all first i wanna say that this is a great forum and has great members :-)
i hope someone can help me im 6"1 about 95kg i train 2-3 times a day apart from sat which is 1 time and sun none and i wanna put some weight on and get stronger and if i can get more angry it will be great for my sport. i have just finished a var only cycle at 80mg a day and gain a lot of strenght but only like 2kg i get tested so that is the reason behind Testosterone Suspension i will do 100mg a day split in 2 injections 50/50 mix with b12 water based both i want to know what i need to be taking during the cycle as i dont want man boobs lol but i dont wanna cancel the estrogen all together as it can have less gains so what would u say i should take ? and how much ? also what is the perfect pct ?
i will be taking multi vitiams
flax oil
milk thistle
and a shampoo for face and back to try stop/help spots
replys asap please thanks alot
my sport is cage fighting base in canada at the moment

Use an AI like ARIMIDEX ,LETROZOLE or other anti E's such as NOLVADEX with some PROVIRON .

**MadSweeps** · 08-22-2009, 10:24 PM

First- Helio and Bruce
Now this would have been a good fight. Two small scrappy guys with skills. Excellent match-up. I train both BJJ and JKD, so I can't hate on either side, but I have to go with Helio just on fight experience.

Second- Fighters on the Sauce. I'd say plenty of top tier fighters are juicing just to be able to train more. I only personally know one pro fighter, and I know he doesn't but I can't really say positively that anyone does, I just have a good hunch that they do.

**tupollo** · 07-20-2010, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Almond

I don't think any "aggression-inducing" compounds are gonna make you a better fighter. If anything, you'd want a drug that makes you more "clinical". Think Hannibal Lecter sort of attitude.

the only thing i can think of is adderal for that but thats not really a muscle builder.

**Berserker88** · 07-20-2010, 11:54 PM

Strong bump there Tupollo...

**tupollo** · 07-21-2010, 12:14 AM

i was trying to find research on bruce lee and steriouds cause i thumbed through one of his books...what an amazing dude....so i came here first...and bumped into this thread and added what lil i could...

after a lil googleing i realized there was a whole did he/didn't he goin on the web an now i'll never know.