week four. Poor results

**pirate4x4** · 09-01-2009, 07:48 AM

Okay so im a beginner, and i am on week four of my stack with deca 200 and androven 275. Every sunday I take 1 cc of each. So far I have seen some results. But nothing crazy. Id really like to get up in weight. Any suggestions? Also what kind of results should I be seeing? And do you think I should hop on a creatine while on cycle? THanks for the help guys

**pirate4x4** · 09-01-2009, 08:02 AM

Bump.... Help?

**marcus300** · 09-01-2009, 08:03 AM

stats?
How long have you been training for?
Whats your diet like?
Your suppose to ask for help before you start a cycle because its plain to see you didnt do any research!

**pirate4x4** · 09-01-2009, 08:11 AM

Im 22, 5"11. 182lbs. Ive been training for around 3 1/2 years steady and on and off a few years before that. I did alot of research on orals beforehand and decided injectible was alot safer to take. I wanted to only take 1 cc of each to start just to be on the safe side. I really want to be around 200 lbs or greater without getting too fat. I lift 5 days a week usually. Sometimes more. I eat every three hours and supplement with glutamine and weight gainer which has 52 grams of protein.

**marcus300** · 09-01-2009, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by pirate4x4

Im 22, 5"11. 182lbs. Ive been training for around 3 1/2 years steady and on and off a few years before that. I did alot of research on orals beforehand and decided injectible was alot safer to take. I wanted to only take 1 cc of each to start just to be on the safe side. I really want to be around 200 lbs or greater without getting too fat. I lift 5 days a week usually. Sometimes more. I eat every three hours and supplement with glutamine and weight gainer which has 52 grams of protein.

Well by the cycle your doing you didnt do much research,

You shouldnt be mixing two drugs on your first cycle,
Your using to little of an amount to see any gains IMHO,
Your to young to use AAS and you could cause damage to your own HPTA which would results in sides you dont want to be having at such a young age,

**pirate4x4** · 09-01-2009, 08:21 AM

as far as hpta, I will finish the cycle with equipoise . Maybe noladex. But so far so good. The reason I have been using such small doses is because I wanted to make sure the two were going to have little side effects. In your opinion, what doses should I be taking. And do you think my goals are unrealistic. Also, should I take a creatine with this?

**marcus300** · 09-01-2009, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by pirate4x4

as far as hpta, I will finish the cycle with equipoise. Maybe noladex. But so far so good. The reason I have been using such small doses is because I wanted to make sure the two were going to have little side effects. In your opinion, what doses should I be taking. And do you think my goals are unrealistic. Also, should I take a creatine with this?

So your going to be finishing your cycle with EQ? what as that got to do with your HPTA what is eq going to do at the end of the cycle?

If you had some side effects which compound would you think is giving you them if you havent cycled before or used any of the compounds? that is why you should use one compound.

You have no idea what your doing or saying, you shouldnt be cycling IMHO, you should come off all compounds do PCT and leave it for a few yrs and get your diet in order.

Do you know your HPTA is not fully functional yet? and shutting it down before it is can cause problems for you! unable to get erections, low libido,depression to name a small few!

your better off going into PCT and just cycle creatine and use your natural amount of hormones you have at this age/

**Mooseman33** · 09-01-2009, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by pirate4x4

as far as hpta, I will finish the cycle with equipoise . Maybe noladex. But so far so good. The reason I have been using such small doses is because I wanted to make sure the two were going to have little side effects. In your opinion, what doses should I be taking. And do you think my goals are unrealistic. Also, should I take a creatine with this?

so far so good?
ur thread title says "poor results"..
this is ur first cycle and u are running to chems and wanting to add another.
please stop, ur goals can be achieved without all this shit.
u have no idea man what u are doing or putting into ur body.
take the time to research and learn what u are doing to urself, it is ur body man, there are no re-do's

**pirate4x4** · 09-01-2009, 08:41 AM

ive already done creatine plenty of times. Ill do a good pct to controll the hpta. So far I havent gotten any answers to my questions. Im not the first 22 year old to do this. Not by a long shot. In fact In the forums here there are 20 year olds competing with 29 year old bodies. Im actually taking advice now from a kid two years younger than me whos twice my size. Im just looking to get the most out of what im taking.

**CHAP** · 09-01-2009, 08:42 AM

stop right there. Pull the needle out of your a$$ and lets get this right . Dammit your wanting help so listin to marcus!

**tat2freak** · 09-01-2009, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

So your going to be finishing your cycle with EQ? what as that got to do with your HPTA what is eq going to do at the end of the cycle?

If you had some side effects which compound would you is giving you them if you havent cycled before or used any of the compounds? that is why you should use one compound.

You have no idea what your doing or saying, you shouldnt be cycling IMHO, you should come off all compounds do PCT and leave it for a few yrs and get your diet in order.

Do you know your HPTA is not fully functional yet? and shutting it down before it is can cause problems for you! unable to get erections, low libido,depression to name a small few!

your better off going into PCT and just cycle creatine and use your natural amount of hormones you have at this age/

Couldn't have been said any better liston to what he's saying he knows what he's talkin about

**BOBBY D** · 09-01-2009, 08:43 AM

pirate, please listen to these guys here. You always should start a first cycle w/ just testosterone to see how that works for you. but besides that, u don't understand how damaging these drugs can be to your penis & mentality if not done right, Take it from me, I made a mistake a few years back by starting Deca w/o test, not good.

But please be careful & re-evaluate this situation.

**xo3et** · 09-01-2009, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by pirate4x4

ive already done creatine plenty of times. Ill do a good pct to controll the hpta. So far I havent gotten any answers to my questions. Im not the first 22 year old to do this. Not by a long shot. In fact In the forums here there are 20 year olds competing with 29 year old bodies. Im actually taking advice now from a kid two years younger than me whos twice my size. Im just looking to get the most out of what im taking.

Id stop taking and start PCT as said.

Your diet is not in check and i know this because your my height and only 182lbs. You can reach 200lbs naturally with a proper diet. I was 196lbs and 12% BF with just 1 year of serious training and diet.

Your taking advice from someone at your gym who most likely has no clue

stick around this forum and your be teaching him stuff in no time at all, just dont be put down by
peoples comments. They are right your just have to accept it and absorb stuff in.

**marcus300** · 09-01-2009, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by pirate4x4

ive already done creatine plenty of times. Ill do a good pct to controll the hpta. So far I havent gotten any answers to my questions. Im not the first 22 year old to do this. Not by a long shot. In fact In the forums here there are 20 year olds competing with 29 year old bodies. Im actually taking advice now from a kid two years younger than me whos twice my size. Im just looking to get the most out of what im taking.

You dont know what your talking about, if damage occurs a good pct will not control your HPTA, its hasnt fully developed yet so what are the chances involved it not even getting to a fully functional stage???

yes these forums are full of kids who wont listen and if you research you will see there are loads of threads asking "how to get hard" "help ive no balls"! "i am despressed"!!

exactly, your taking advice from someone who is 2 yrs younger than you and look at the state of your cycle? its awfull and pointless.

The answer to your problem is, come off and try and recover and go natural and dont risk damage....or are you waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear,,,maybe off a 20yr kid will advice you to stay on!!

come off and do a pct and recover and dont touch AAS, research and sort your diet out because if you cant gain anymore weight with your diet,,,, it isnt in order.

**CHAP** · 09-01-2009, 08:52 AM

1st cycle needs to be test only . It is easier for someone who is new to this to use a long ester. Some say to pin it every 3.5 days. I firmly believe every 7 days is fine.

No less than 400 mg a week if your wanting to put on muscle. 500mg is a good 1st cycle and you will probably not run into unwanted sides.

Your Andropen if its real andropen which I highly doubt is a great product.

You have to have enough Clomid at the end of your cycle to run 150/100/50/50
And Nolva at 40/40/40/40

Also youshouls always have double the amout of Nolva incase gyno or extreme bloating start to occur during your cycle.

EQ has nothing to do with your hpta. And its hard to even tell if your shut down until you get to your PCT.

You have alot to learn along with others on this board. Take the time to learn from this . Save your gear for a future cycle which is better planned.

You can run the cycle your on 4 times over the next few years and you will have leass gains than if you ran 1 of our beginners cycles correctly.

Good luck

CHAP

**ninesecz** · 09-01-2009, 08:54 AM

You are taking 200mmg a week of Deca for starters.... Deca takes 5-8 weeks to kick in when you run normal dosages.. You are taking 1/2 the normal dosage! and what do you mean "i'll finish the cycle with eq, maybe nolvadex "? that sentence does not even make any sense! EQ is an anabolic steroid and nolvadex is an ancillary! You should have done more research efore you just went pinning yourself.. You are going to have to make some changes to this so called cycle right now or stop it completely. You are not only going to get very limited gains, but you are going to cause yourself to e shutdown and have a lot of problems. You are alos basically taking a real generous TRT dose of Test.. and thats it... Very ill planned cycle.. Sorry to say! on top of it where did you get Andropen ?

**pirate4x4** · 09-01-2009, 08:57 AM

okay guys take it easy. im not trying to say you guys dont know what your talking about. I just saw an opportunity to make some big gains quickly. Ive been on it for almost a month at a low dose for obvious safety reasons. And everyone is telling me im not taking a high enough dosage. My diet is plain and simple. Im a big big eater, and i work hard in the gym. This isnt an exageration. I have a very hard time gaining. Im just getting frustrated because not only is this expensive, but I put alot of faith into it.

**pirate4x4** · 09-01-2009, 09:00 AM

So, in order to stay on cycle, What changes should I make ninesecs?

**sully15** · 09-01-2009, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by xo3et

Id stop taking and start PCT as said.

Your diet is not in check and i know this because your my height and only 182lbs. You can reach 200lbs naturally with a proper diet. I was 196lbs and 12% BF with just 1 year of serious training and diet.

Your taking advice from someone at your gym who most likely has no clue

stick around this forum and your be teaching him stuff in no time at all, just dont be put down by
peoples comments. They are right your just have to accept it and absorb stuff in.

I'm 5'8 and I'm the same weight as you and I'm natural. Really should get that diet in check, I know a lot of guys think they have the perfect diet but really have no clue. It makes a LOT more of a difference than most normal guys will ever realize.

**pirate4x4** · 09-01-2009, 09:16 AM

my diet:
7:00 6 eggs 2 packets oatmeal
10:00 protein shake
1:00 2 chicken breasts, brown rice, packet of veggies
4:00 tuna sandwhich
pre/post wrkt shake
7:00 fish,chicken, or steak. with brown rice, or pasta with veggies and salad
10-11 protein shake and half-full tub cottege cheese.

I eat. Not too mention the bread and almonds i snack on all day. This isnt a new diet. Ive been doing it for a while because the other diets werent working. I at least gained a tiny bit from this

**ninesecz** · 09-01-2009, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by pirate4x4

So, in order to stay on cycle, What changes should I make ninesecs?

You are already in the cycle that is why i would like to help but i want you to know i am in agreeance with Marcus and really think you should stop and research exactly what you are using and why it does what it does so you have some knowledge but I will help you... First off this is important... Where (no source names) did you get the Andropen .. That is actually a brand name steroid and the company that makes it has been out of business for a few years now.. Cause if we are getting you straightened out and your testosterone , which is the base of your cycle is fake.. then we are not going to get too far! How close to 100% are you that the andropen is real?

**pirate4x4** · 09-01-2009, 09:39 AM

the andropen is made by a british company that supports mythical creatures. it has in it
test acetate 20mg,
test decanoate 90mg
test propionate 45 mg
test phennylpriopoinate 45mg
test cypionate 75mg
it says made in 2007 use by 2011.
Id have to say its real. My source is descent but ya never really know. my nuts shrank and i doubt the deca kicked in yet so its gotta be doing something

**redz** · 09-01-2009, 10:05 AM

Can't name the labs, edit your post, You should be injecting that andropen eod to take advantage of the short esters, drop the deca 200mg is a useless dose anyways. Also that lab closed some time ago so everything going around is knock off remakes of the original brand.

**nothingtoitbuttodoit** · 09-01-2009, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by pirate4x4

my diet:
7:00 6 eggs 2 packets oatmeal
10:00 protein shake
1:00 2 chicken breasts, brown rice, packet of veggies
4:00 tuna sandwhich
pre/post wrkt shake
7:00 fish,chicken, or steak. with brown rice, or pasta with veggies and salad
10-11 protein shake and half-full tub cottege cheese.

I eat. Not too mention the bread and almonds i snack on all day. This isnt a new diet. Ive been doing it for a while because the other diets werent working. I at least gained a tiny bit from this

need a more detailed diet, post it in diet section

**marcus300** · 09-01-2009, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by pirate4x4

okay guys take it easy. im not trying to say you guys dont know what your talking about. I just saw an opportunity to make some big gains quickly. Ive been on it for almost a month at a low dose for obvious safety reasons. And everyone is telling me im not taking a high enough dosage. My diet is plain and simple. Im a big big eater, and i work hard in the gym. This isnt an exageration. I have a very hard time gaining. Im just getting frustrated because not only is this expensive, but I put alot of faith into it.

Your not listening and only listening to what you want to hear, there is no safe way to stay on cycle at your age and stats, come off and recovery and forget AAS, you cant gain on cycle and you cant gain off cycle! its your diet. Do you not understand that there isnt a safe way even at low dose for someone of your age! i know my posts are landing on deaf ears so i wont post again, its pointless!!

The best thing you can do is come off, recover and hopefully you wouldnt of damaged your HPTA, forget eq at the end of the cycle, foreget low dose deca , foregt cycling and concentrate on what you should of done from the start and thats food,

forget AAS there are not the answer for someone like you

**ninesecz** · 09-01-2009, 10:35 AM

As I said that andropen is a brand name and I know the lab you are speaking of... if you go to their website it will tell you that they have not made products in al most 3 years and that is what worries me.

First off we will work on your diet if you keep checking and answering my questions on this thread....

Here is how you should be taking your compounds.... First... Stop with the Deca ! Straight Up! It is your first cycle save it for another cycle... you have never done steroids and i am telling you.. You do not need anything more than the Andropen you have! Trust me I have done steroids for quite a few years and still to thi day nly use 1 compound at a time! Testosterone is very strong! You would want to use a total of 450-500mg a week of the Andropen. The problem is with that having short ester in it, you are going to need to inject it 3X per week to get optimal results.. you can do it 2X a week but you will lose some of the punch from the short esters.
it is 275mg/ml so you will need 1.75 or 1 3/4 cc a week which will be about 500mg a week or close to it. you will divide that into 3 injections each will contain a tiny bit over .5cc ( your syringes should have little lines to show every tenth of a cc. you basically want .6 cc for every injection. that is all you will take.

Next we have to make sure you have the proper ancillaries... you will need 2100mg of Clomid and 850mg of Nolvadex to run your PCT the proper way! This is not negotiable.. this is the minimum you need! or you can screw yourself up!
You will run it for 4 weeks
week 1 nolvadex 40mg a day and 100mg of clomid a day
Week 2 Nolvadex 40mg a day and 100mg of clomid a day
Week 3 Nolvadex 20mg a day and 50mg of clomid a day
Week 4 nolvadex 20mg a day and 50mg of clomid a day

**Mooseman33** · 09-01-2009, 10:40 AM

nine:
why wouldnt u have this kid come completley off, run a PCT, research and learn the correct way.
this guy is only listening to u cause u are showing him a way to remain on a cycle he shouldnt be on..he is only listening to what he wants to hear.
Please tell him to stop everything and run PCT, this guy dont need roids, u cant walk him thru his whole cycle man..

**ninesecz** · 09-01-2009, 10:47 AM

thw rest is now your diet.. only you will know exactly what works for you but you will need to get it figured out if you want this to work! Steroids are only a crutch! the real magic is done through the diet! Yuo need a complete balanced diet. this does not mean just balanced for the day, but for each meal too! this means all 5-7 meals need to be balanced and yes.. you have to eat at least 5 balanced meals a day I eat 7 and so do most! If you can not do this then dont bother with the steroids plain and simple!

Each meal should have enough protein carbs and fat for your bodyweight and neds to be the correct amount of calories for your size and goals. at 182# you will need around 225g of protein so that is about 45grams of protein for each meal. that is 900 calories so the rest of your calories need to come from simple and complex carbs and essential fats this is going to be 10X more difficult than the cycle itself and is usually the reason people have bad gains on their cycle! You should right off the top of your head know how many calories each gram of protein, carbs, and fat have in them. As I said. if you can not get this straightened out, Stop cycling cause it will not do you any good! Just so you know i have been doing this for quite a few years and it took me 9 hours to get my diet set up for the cycle i am on right now! Balancing fat carbs and protein together with the correct amount of each and hitting the right amount of calories is not the easiest thing in the world! going to take a lot of reading and hard work but if you really want to do this here is where you start

As I said above I would much rater you listened to Marcus and come off completely , do you research and get back on when you are 100% sure you know what you are doing. As I said it is going to take more than an hour and some protein powder to do your diet right and if you have nver done one before, you how are you going to know what foods work for you? Should you eat pasta or no? Is brown rice work for you or do you need white? How much dairy, if any do you want to eat? all these things need time to be researched. different foods work different on different people. i hope you have some common sense and hede what we are Saying

**Matt** · 09-01-2009, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

You dont know what your talking about, if damage occurs a good pct will not control your HPTA, its hasnt fully developed yet so what are the chances involved it not even getting to a fully functional stage???

yes these forums are full of kids who wont listen and if you research you will see there are loads of threads asking "how to get hard" "help ive no balls"! "i am despressed"!!

exactly, your taking advice for someone who is 2 yrs younger than you and look at the state of your cycle? its awfull and pointless.

The answer to your problem is, come off and try and recover and go natural and dont risk damage....or are you waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear,,,maybe off a 20yr kid will advice you to stay on!!

come off and do a pct and recover and dont touch AAS, research and sort your diet out because if you can gain anymore weight with your diet it isnt in order.

That there is the best advice in this thread bro, listen to what Marcus is saying.. He's telling you for your own sake....

Its not only your hpta that can be seriously damaged but also growth plates...

Stop now and start pct...

**marcus300** · 09-01-2009, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by ninesecz

As I said that andropen is a brand name and I know the lab you are speaking of... if you go to their website it will tell you that they have not made products in al most 3 years and that is what worries me.

First off we will work on your diet if you keep checking and answering my questions on this thread....

Here is how you should be taking your compounds.... First... Stop with the Deca ! Straight Up! It is your first cycle save it for another cycle... you have never done steroids and i am telling you.. You do not need anything more than the Andropen you have! Trust me I have done steroids for quite a few years and still to thi day nly use 1 compound at a time! Testosterone is very strong! You would want to use a total of 450-500mg a week of the Andropen. The problem is with that having short ester in it, you are going to need to inject it 3X per week to get optimal results.. you can do it 2X a week but you will lose some of the punch from the short esters.
it is 275mg/ml so you will need 1.75 or 1 3/4 cc a week which will be about 500mg a week or close to it. you will divide that into 3 injections each will contain a tiny bit over .5cc ( your syringes should have little lines to show every tenth of a cc. you basically want .6 cc for every injection. that is all you will take.

Next we have to make sure you have the proper ancillaries... you will need 2100mg of Clomid and 850mg of Nolvadex to run your PCT the proper way! This is not negotiable.. this is the minimum you need! or you can screw yourself up!
You will run it for 4 weeks
week 1 nolvadex 40mg a day and 100mg of clomid a day
Week 2 Nolvadex 40mg a day and 100mg of clomid a day
Week 3 Nolvadex 20mg a day and 50mg of clomid a day
Week 4 nolvadex 20mg a day and 50mg of clomid a day

I personally feel we should try and steer him away from further complication and sides down the road, its very plain to see he doesn't know what he is talking about and he is asking for advice what's the best thing to do!!, its simple! he should come off and recover, he shouldn't stay on and cycle like someone of 25yrs old who as built a good foundation and as got a basic diet in hand, two wrongs dont make a right! He should think further down the road and how to build muscle tissue without the aid of AAS because if he cant then were will it end up! just my opinion.

weather if he is going to stay on or not, i feel we need to force the issue of how to cycle healthy and safely at his age.

Just think if and when things go wrong for this guy he will be back on here saying you advised him to stay on! He named you because you was the only one telling him to stay on, that's what he wanted to hear.

He as no idea what his HPTA is or how it function,
He is taking advice from some 20yr old,
He used multi compound stack for his first,
He is using multi compounds at low dose to keep side at bay,
He is going to use EQ at the end of the cycle for his HPTA,
He cant gain weight on cycle or off cycle?

He needs to come off and recover and research properly IMHO and concentrate on his diet, it will take wks for him to sort his diet out into a muscle building one which he responds to then his cycle will be over anyway,all its going to do is create even more sides staying on.

**DOM6** · 09-01-2009, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by CHAP

1st cycle needs to be test only . It is easier for someone who is new to this to use a long ester. Some say to pin it every 3.5 days. I firmly believe every 7 days is fine.

No less than 400 mg a week if your wanting to put on muscle. 500mg is a good 1st cycle and you will probably not run into unwanted sides.

Your Andropen if its real andropen which I highly doubt is a great product.

You have to have enough Clomid at the end of your cycle to run 150/100/50/50
And Nolva at 40/40/40/40

Also youshouls always have double the amout of Nolva incase gyno or extreme bloating start to occur during your cycle.

EQ has nothing to do with your hpta. And its hard to even tell if your shut down until you get to your PCT.

You have alot to learn along with others on this board. Take the time to learn from this . Save your gear for a future cycle which is better planned.

You can run the cycle your on 4 times over the next few years and you will have leass gains than if you ran 1 of our beginners cycles correctly.

Good luck

CHAP

^^^^^^ Good post
Theres you info OP

**Mooseman33** · 09-01-2009, 11:39 AM

Marcus;

exactly my thoughts as posted above.

**CHAP** · 09-01-2009, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by CHAP

1st cycle needs to be test only . It is easier for someone who is new to this to use a long ester. Some say to pin it every 3.5 days. I firmly believe every 7 days is fine.

No less than 400 mg a week if your wanting to put on muscle. 500mg is a good 1st cycle and you will probably not run into unwanted sides.

Your Andropen if its real andropen which I highly doubt is a great product.

You have to have enough Clomid at the end of your cycle to run 150/100/50/50
And Nolva at 40/40/40/40

Also youshouls always have double the amout of Nolva incase gyno or extreme bloating start to occur during your cycle.

EQ has nothing to do with your hpta. And its hard to even tell if your shut down until you get to your PCT.

You have alot to learn along with others on this board. Take the time to learn from this . Save your gear for a future cycle which is better planned.

You can run the cycle your on 4 times over the next few years and you will have leass gains than if you ran 1 of our beginners cycles correctly.

Good luck

CHAP

Just for the record I do not think people should start til late 20's .

Because of the sides .

I put this post up becase he was already at it and needed to do it the correct way .

I think the best course of action would of course run pct

Learn about diet AAS the correct workouts and pick up cycling in a few years.