What are the negatives or "sides" to running nolva throughout your test course?

[ADB007]

Are their any problems with running nolva @ 20mg per day throughout my test course in order to combat estrogen? Are their any side effects like diminished gains, water retention ect?

Thanks

[*El Diablo*]

Personally i wouldnt,my reasoning is that each compound has it side effects effectifly, so i would refrain from adding another compound to my cycle, rather keep them on hand and see if u are prone to sides. I wouldnt worry about water retention on u, because u are very lean, Water retention might just help to your physique

[ADB007]

Thanks for the reply. I also have letro but I think that would be an overkill.
I have some gyno issues on my last course so i wanted to keep this one as safe as possible. Will run it without nolva for the meantime, and see how I feel

[*El Diablo*]

Sure, im not prone to Gyno at all, my nips do get sensitive but once i stop it goes away bye itself. Lets wait for more responses....

[MR10X]

I am using Nolvadex now on my cycle that i have been on for 8 weeks,there are no side effects from the Nolvadex.The problem with letro or other AI's is it kills your estrogen and you will have problems,i took Letro to get rid of some gyno i had and i had serious sexual problems doing that but at the time i wasnt worried about that.

[*El Diablo*]

I am using Nolvadex now on my cycle that i have been on for 8 weeks,there are no side effects from the Nolvadex.The problem with letro or other AI's is it kills your estrogen and you will have problems,i took Letro to get rid of some gyno i had and i had serious sexual problems doing that but at the time i wasnt worried about that.

it has been linked to reduced gains in some bodybuilders. This isn´t due, as previously thought, to its reducing estrogen levels (which it doesn´t), but rather to it´s ability to possibly reduce IGF (Insulin -like-Growth-Factor) levels, which are important for muscle growth

[Merc.]

Yep ^^^^ nolva can lower igf-1 ...


Heres a study showing it does ...

Tamoxifen reduces serum insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I).Pollak MN, Huynh HT, Lefebvre SP.
McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Antiestrogens are widely used in the management of hormonally responsive breast cancer in both adjuvant and palliative settings, and are currently being evaluated as chemopreventive agents. The classical mechanism of action of these drugs involves inhibition of estrogen-stimulated neoplastic cell proliferation by blockade of estrogen receptors present on breast cancer cells. This paper reviews recent clinical and laboratory data that suggest that the commonly used antiestrogen tamoxifen also acts to reduce serum IGF-I levels. Estrogens appear to play a permissive role in growth hormone (GH) release by the pituitary gland and GH is known to stimulate IGF-I expression by hepatocytes. It is therefore possible that blockade of estrogen receptors in the hypothalamic-pituitary axis by tamoxifen interferes with GH release, leading to reduced hepatic IGF-I expression. In view of results suggesting that IGF-I is a more potent mitogen than estradiol for breast cancer cells and data demonstrating a positive correlation between estrogen receptor level and IGF-I receptor level of breast cancer cells, the IGF-I lowering effect of tamoxifen may contribute to the cytostatic activity of the drug. The interrelationships between steroid hormone physiology and IGF-I physiology may have relevance to a variety of commonly used treatments for hormonally responsive cancers.

PMID: 1421427 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Merc.

[Swifto]

Yep ^^^^ nolva can lower igf-1 ...


Heres a study showing it does ...

Tamoxifen reduces serum insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I).Pollak MN, Huynh HT, Lefebvre SP.
McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Antiestrogens are widely used in the management of hormonally responsive breast cancer in both adjuvant and palliative settings, and are currently being evaluated as chemopreventive agents. The classical mechanism of action of these drugs involves inhibition of estrogen-stimulated neoplastic cell proliferation by blockade of estrogen receptors present on breast cancer cells. This paper reviews recent clinical and laboratory data that suggest that the commonly used antiestrogen tamoxifen also acts to reduce serum IGF-I levels. Estrogens appear to play a permissive role in growth hormone (GH) release by the pituitary gland and GH is known to stimulate IGF-I expression by hepatocytes. It is therefore possible that blockade of estrogen receptors in the hypothalamic-pituitary axis by tamoxifen interferes with GH release, leading to reduced hepatic IGF-I expression. In view of results suggesting that IGF-I is a more potent mitogen than estradiol for breast cancer cells and data demonstrating a positive correlation between estrogen receptor level and IGF-I receptor level of breast cancer cells, the IGF-I lowering effect of tamoxifen may contribute to the cytostatic activity of the drug. The interrelationships between steroid hormone physiology and IGF-I physiology may have relevance to a variety of commonly used treatments for hormonally responsive cancers.

PMID: 1421427 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Merc.

How much did it reduce IGF by though? 10%? 20%? 50%? 200%?

Have you seen the full paper Merc?

Bodybuilders for years have used Tamox at a low dose and got very good gains whilst controlling sides in the 80's and 90's. I have friends that still use it at 10mg/ED.

Without the figure one cannot form an opinoin on that above abstract, although some "guru's" do.

Ok, it reduces IGF and isnt optimal, but will it negatively effect gains?

[Merc.]

How much did it reduce IGF by though? 10%? 20%? 50%? 200%?

Have you seen the full paper Merc?

Bodybuilders for years have used Tamox at a low dose and got very good gains whilst controlling sides in the 80's and 90's. I have friends that still use it at 10mg/ED.

Without the figure one cannot form an opinoin on that above abstract, although some "guru's" do.

Ok, it reduces IGF and isnt optimal, but will it negatively effect gains?

Yes I have read the full paper( i dont only go around reading only abstracts Mate ).. That was a long study i believe .. because i posted it in my estro article thread like two years ago .. link in above post ... ( if i post a abstract i usually post a link to the full pdf paper if it is available online ).. I cant find the pdf version of that full study ( like i said i originally posted it two years ago in my estro article thread .. so i dont know if it was removed or what )..

There are different studies on this that show different results on how much it can reduce igf-1 ... some say not that much (others show it could be a significant amount ( so it can go back and forth on this) .. So than its best to look at independent anecdotal observations that can at least provide some idea how much of an issue it really is. There are two types of camps on this .. one says yes they do notice a difference when using nolva .. and than the others state that they dont have any loss of gains when using it .. So with all the discrepancies .. you kinda have to come to your own conclusion on whether you think it would be a significant amount , or not... I have used nolva and didnt notice any loss of gains .. but there are other peeps that swear it does ( which what kinda was the reason i started looking into this awhile back )..




Merc.

[Swifto]

Yes I have read the full paper( i dont only go around reading only abstracts Mate ).. That was a long study i believe .. because i posted it in my estro article thread like two years ago .. link in above post ... ( if i post a abstract i usually post a link to the full pdf paper if it is available online ).. I cant find the pdf version of that full study ( like i said i originally posted it two years ago in my estro article thread .. so i dont know if it was removed or what )..

There are different studies on this that show different results on how much it can reduce igf-1 ... some say not that much (others show it could be a significant amount ( so it can go back and forth on this) .. So than its best to look at independent anecdotal observations that can at least provide some idea how much of an issue it really is. There are two types of camps on this .. one says yes they do notice a difference when using nolva .. and than the others state that they dont have any loss of gains when using it .. So with all the discrepancies .. you kinda have to come to your own conclusion on whether you think it would be a significant amount , or not... I have used nolva and didnt notice any loss of gains .. but there are other peeps that swear it does ( which what kinda was the reason i started looking into this awhile back )..




Merc.

Thanks Merc. I didnt mean to single you out on ONLY reading abstracts, it was more of a general comment. I know you research the facts fully and I respect your opinoin.

Do wer have a number though mate? Anything at all? I think its an interesting subject indeed. Tamoxifen , it seems, it still a compound were still learning about. From its effects on IGF to its effects on PgR/ER.

[Merc.]

Thanks Merc. I didnt mean to single you out on ONLY reading abstracts, it was more of a general comment. I know you research the facts fully and I respect your opinoin.

Do wer have a number though mate? Anything at all? I think its an interesting subject indeed. Tamoxifen, it seems, it still a compound were still learning about. From its effects on IGF to its effects on PgR/ER.

Yea we truly are still learning a lot of stuff about it ..
I will have to go through some studies to try to see if any at least come up with any kinda of contestant numbers ..




Merc.

[Merc.]

I also discussed this in my estrogen article ( thread )... there is alot of info throughout this thread i you wanna check it out ..


Estrogen Will It Effect My Gains



Merc.

[BJJ]

I also discussed this in my estrogen article ( thread )... there is alot of info throughout this thread i you wanna check it out ..


Estrogen Will It Effect My Gains



Merc.

I will.

[Merc.]

I will.

yea man when you have time go through that thread .. lots of good info posted there ..





Merc.

[Swifto]

As with other aspects of the IGF-1 system, there are conflicting reports regarding the effects of SERMs like tamoxifen on IGF-1 binding proteins. These proteins carry IGF-1 in the plasma are are generally thought to inhibit the action of IGF-1. For example, to quote from one study on raloxifene, a tamoxifen like SERM,

"Increases in IGFBP-3 may potentially decrease the activity of circulating IGF-I." (1)

IGF-1 is thought to contribute to breast cancer. Raloxifene and tamoxifen both increase IGF-1 binding proteins, and this is believed to be part of the way they treat/prevent breast cancer. Most studies show tamoxifen increases IGF-1 binding proteins. To quote from one typical study,

"tamoxifen increases IGF-BP3 and IGF-BP1 concentrations" (2)

So if you believe injecting IGF-1 will contribute to gains (most people don't; it's IGF-1 produced locally in muscle that leads to gains. But that is fodder for another thread) it certainly makes sense to avoid SERMs like tamoxifen when using IGF-1.


(1) Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2003 Dec;12(12):1468-73.

Effect of raloxifene on insulin -like growth factor-I, insulin-like growth factor binding protein-3, and leptin in premenopausal women at high risk for developing breast cancer.

Eng-Wong J, Hursting SD, Venzon D, Perkins SN, Zujewski JA.


(2) Mol Pathol. 2001 Oct;54(5):307-10.

IGF status is altered by tamoxifen in patients with breast cancer.

Campbell MJ, Woodside JV, Secker-Walker J, Titcomb A, Leathem AJ.


__________________

- Nandi

[*El Diablo*]

^^thanks Merc,i read ur study and thats where i read that Nolva can lower IGF-1.....

[Merc.]

^^thanks Merc,i read ur study and thats where i read that Nolva can lower IGF-1.....

Merc.

[amostofi1999]

im on 20mg nolva right now for gyno treatment. i have been taking it for 1 month now and i dont feel any sides.
the doc said it need at least 6 months to see results but i should check with him in 3 month.

[*El Diablo*]

im on 20mg nolva right now for gyno treatment. i have been taking it for 1 month now and i dont feel any sides.
the doc said it need at least 6 months to see results but i should check with him in 3 month.

How do u know ur not experiencing sides? Im curious? No offence ..

[chitownhoker]

How do u know ur not experiencing sides? Im curious? No offence ..

he prolly means no noticable physical effects, but nolva isn't known for causing those, its effects are more "internally" which would be consistent with you poster saying he hasn't noticed any sides

[MR10X]

My gains are just as good while taking Nolvadex as it is without it.