More carbs on aas??

[bradhore]

Never quite known about the answer to this, but i feel alot more hungry, but im trying to lean bulk, now is it ok to go for more carbs, without gaining bodyfat??

[SlimJoe]

i would try get as much protein get a fair amount of carbs due to how your body is being used throught the day

[BadNewsBerto]

youd probably get better advice posting this in the diet forum bro.

That being said, IMO if your trying to bulk, "traditionally" or "lean", you need a calorie surplus to make gains. Assuming you keep your protein constant at 1.5-2g/lb you can play with the numbers of fat and carbs. To me a lean bulk would be slower steady more maintainable gains, and as such id probably only take my calories to about 500-1000above maintenance. Primarily utilizing complex carbs, lots of fresh veg high in dietary fibre and protein to bump the numbers. Ive seen many of my bros attempt the "lean bulk" but to be honest ive never witnessed it a complete success, not to say its imposible, but deffinately a challenge. Diet is key!

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers
BNB

[AlphaMaleDawg]

yea carbs should always be high on bulks IMO

[steelydave11]

Sorry, the answer is no. Carbs are a myth, period, Get your calories from protein and unsaturated fats as the majority. Whatever you can do to eliminate carbs, do it. You could get 4500 calories and 350 grams of protein a day from eating just 1 lb of peanut butter, 1 lb of beef and three protein shakes. You need nothing else and can substitute different meats and nuts for the above if you want. Want to be huge AND cut? NO carbs.....period. That is seriously old school thinking. They dont even provide the energy that was always claimed. I eat next to no carbs and can probably outlift most people. Total BS. Carbs are the enemy.

[c-Z]

Sorry, the answer is no. Carbs are a myth, period, Get your calories from protein and unsaturated fats as the majority. Whatever you can do to eliminate carbs, do it. You could get 4500 calories and 350 grams of protein a day from eating just 1 lb of peanut butter, 1 lb of beef and three protein shakes. You need nothing else and can substitute different meats and nuts for the above if you want. Want to be huge AND cut? NO carbs.....period. That is seriously old school thinking. They dont even provide the energy that was always claimed. I eat next to no carbs and can probably outlift most people. Total BS. Carbs are the enemy.

I call bs on that. because if i dont eat carbs i wont grow. i have a very intense job and assure you the higher the carb intake i do. the more energy i have. and it amazes me yet being so short and weighing less i seem t outlift most? would like to see some solid proof of your opinionated statement.

[steelydave11]

The proof is in the results. i was no stronger when I ate carbs and couldnt get cut up. Eliminated the carb calories, replaced them with what i stated, and am exactly where I want to be. Hey, what works for you is great. Doesnt work for me, and carbs ARE a myth. You would look exactly as you are or even BETTER if you replaced your carbs with proteins and fats.

[c-Z]

The proof is in the results. i was no stronger when I ate carbs and couldnt get cut up. Eliminated the carb calories, replaced them with what i stated, and am exactly where I want to be. Hey, what works for you is great. Doesnt work for me, and carbs ARE a myth. You would look exactly as you are or even BETTER if you replaced your carbs with proteins and fats.

Waiting for the study and research on this opinionated post.

Like you said. When you ate carbs you couldn't get cut.. not all of us are cutting.

[dec11]

The proof is in the results. i was no stronger when I ate carbs and couldnt get cut up. Eliminated the carb calories, replaced them with what i stated, and am exactly where I want to be. Hey, what works for you is great. Doesnt work for me, and carbs ARE a myth. You would look exactly as you are or even BETTER if you replaced your carbs with proteins and fats.

utter rubbish

[steelydave11]

Fair enough, but I bulk up while REMAINING cut dieting this way. If I hadnt tried it your way, Id keep my mouth shut, believe me. I'm not trying to be a "know it all" here. Eliminating carbs makes things a lot easier. You just have to make sure you're getting enough calories from what you are eating...in this case...just fats and proteins. It does work, and avoids the blubber. Don't say it's rubbish if you've never tried it.

[dec11]

take the oil or petrol out of a car, it wont perform with one missing, it needs both. similar senario with the body concerning pro and carbs. you need fuel and to maintain

[steelydave11]

What I find is that the minimal amount of carbs I get from my protein sources is sufficient. I get some from peanut butter, I get some from veggies and my protein shakes. Its a minimal amount and I feel its enough. In other words, to clarify my post, I do not believe in looking to add pure carb sources.....let them come as a result/side benefit of the protein/fat sources you consume.

[c-Z]

Fair enough, but I bulk up while REMAINING cut dieting this way. If I hadnt tried it your way, Id keep my mouth shut, believe me. I'm not trying to be a "know it all" here. Eliminating carbs makes things a lot easier. You just have to make sure you're getting enough calories from what you are eating...in this case...just fats and proteins. It does work, and avoids the blubber. Don't say it's rubbish if you've never tried it.

My avatar. Do i have blubber? If i told you the amount of carbs i consume on some days you would think i am crazy. Every ones body is different. Everyones lifestyle is different. Like I said. I work a very high intensity job. on the go constantly moving and running. My bf% still remains low even at high carb diets. Key word i mentioned is different. which we all are. if not we can all be like cutler and coleman.

when i bulk i still remain trim down even with high carbs. we are all different. face it. 90% of us aren't like you.

[wormwood]

Sorry, the answer is no. Carbs are a myth, period, Get your calories from protein and unsaturated fats as the majority. Whatever you can do to eliminate carbs, do it. You could get 4500 calories and 350 grams of protein a day from eating just 1 lb of peanut butter, 1 lb of beef and three protein shakes. You need nothing else and can substitute different meats and nuts for the above if you want. Want to be huge AND cut? NO carbs.....period. That is seriously old school thinking. They dont even provide the energy that was always claimed. I eat next to no carbs and can probably outlift most people. Total BS. Carbs are the enemy.

Would you say that the majority of elite professional bodybuilders would agree with this?

[AnimalJ]

I would say it depends on the person. iv had a go at the anabolic diet for the last 2 months and have maid tremendous gains. i have gained lean mucle mass and lost %bf at the same time. everybody is different and there is no right way. I believe you can train your body to grow via carb restriction as in high protein/fat and less than 30 grams of carbs a day. In the same respect utilizing carbs for what there worth as far as insulin spikes and the anabolic effect they have. hence the carb loading day on these carb restricted diets, each macro plays its important roll.

[steelydave11]

AnimalJ, that answer holds a lot of interest for me. Can you please give me an example of the diet you're referring to?

[BadNewsBerto]

follow the link for anabolic diet info

http://stronglifts.com/anabolic-diet...ic-diet-guide/

[alpenguy]

Your body needs both protein and carbs to function correctly, or you are robbing it from somewhere else. I have trained both ways and can say that cutting out all your carbs, which is next to impossible , doesnt work IMO. I can remember the first time I went back to carbs and I felt a rush of energy from it -my body thanked me for it. Thats why the Atkins diets, etc, failed. Your body needs both. Just like Deca needs test

[baddgsx]

It's also called the carb keto diet. There is a good thread started by TOP in the diet forum. I'm on this diet right now am I amazed how lean I'm getting and it's been one month.

[bradhore]

It's also called the carb keto diet. There is a good thread started by TOP in the diet forum. I'm on this diet right now am I amazed how lean I'm getting and it's been one month.

and what does your diet consist of?

[FireGuy]

Sorry, the answer is no. Carbs are a myth, period, Get your calories from protein and unsaturated fats as the majority. Whatever you can do to eliminate carbs, do it. You could get 4500 calories and 350 grams of protein a day from eating just 1 lb of peanut butter, 1 lb of beef and three protein shakes. You need nothing else and can substitute different meats and nuts for the above if you want. Want to be huge AND cut? NO carbs.....period. That is seriously old school thinking. They dont even provide the energy that was always claimed. I eat next to no carbs and can probably outlift most people. Total BS. Carbs are the enemy.

I have carbs with just about every meal. My avy was taken on a precontest diet that had 250-300 grams of carbs per day in it. Just cause YOU couldnt get lean doing it doesnt mean others cant. You have your pound of peanut butter and I will have my pound of sweet potatoes and lets see who looks better.

[bradhore]

im on clen too, so that should prob help a fair bit anyway..

[AlphaMaleDawg]

Sorry, the answer is no. Carbs are a myth, period, Get your calories from protein and unsaturated fats as the majority. Whatever you can do to eliminate carbs, do it. You could get 4500 calories and 350 grams of protein a day from eating just 1 lb of peanut butter, 1 lb of beef and three protein shakes. You need nothing else and can substitute different meats and nuts for the above if you want. Want to be huge AND cut? NO carbs.....period. That is seriously old school thinking. They dont even provide the energy that was always claimed. I eat next to no carbs and can probably outlift most people. Total BS. Carbs are the enemy.

you are so wrong it's painful

[CanYouDigIt]

Sorry, the answer is no. Carbs are a myth, period, Get your calories from protein and unsaturated fats as the majority. Whatever you can do to eliminate carbs, do it. You could get 4500 calories and 350 grams of protein a day from eating just 1 lb of peanut butter, 1 lb of beef and three protein shakes. You need nothing else and can substitute different meats and nuts for the above if you want. Want to be huge AND cut? NO carbs.....period. That is seriously old school thinking. They dont even provide the energy that was always claimed. I eat next to no carbs and can probably outlift most people. Total BS. Carbs are the enemy.

you're so dumb you make stupid people, look smart, end of story.

eating carbs is a "myth" this guy has taken one too many of those lucky charms when he was young.

can outlift most people without eating carbs, that's a very nice statement how about you /show us your amazing lifts.. considering the world is on your plate?

[steelydave11]

you're so dumb you make stupid people, look smart, end of story.

eating carbs is a "myth" this guy has taken one too many of those lucky charms when he was young.

can outlift most people without eating carbs, that's a very nice statement how about you /show us your amazing lifts.. considering the world is on your plate?

I see. So you apparently know my physiology/chemistry better than I do. Is that it? You watched my progress while both on and off a carb rich diet, correct? Shut your mouth. If it works for you, great. What worked for me proved that carbs, at least for some, aren't needed, and in fact are a detriment. Your opinions count for nothing as it relates to my results.

[big an rich]

Steelydave... You have some good points, some didn't come out too well.

1: Peanut butter has carbs in it...
2: Carbs exist, they are not a myth.. I jest. The point you try to make is that we don't need them.

If you came across in a more balanced way people wouldn't call bs on your post then flame grill you.

I am on a carb cycle timing schedule, I eat no more than 8 g of carbs on non-training days, an apple before I train then make use of the insulin spike post training. One day a week refeed. I think this is more sensible than you suggesting on the one hand that you eat no carbs then on the other you eat an obscene amount of nut butter (which has its place but does have naturally occuring sugar).

In answer to the OP on AAS you really need to consume more amino acids as AAS provides you with the positive nitorgen balance to make use of the protein. If bulking then you choose, healthy fat or carbs. It is really down to your body and what works. Some guys above get lean on 300g a day, some guys have a carb curfew (good idea IMHO as it can be best of both worlds) and others like to go very low.

[bradhore]

I think you need a certain amount of carbs to maintain the weight you can lift, but too much carbs consumed in 1 day will turn to fat if not burnt off, right.,

[Maverick_J8]

I call bs on that. because if i dont eat carbs i wont grow. i have a very intense job and assure you the higher the carb intake i do. the more energy i have. and it amazes me yet being so short and weighing less i seem t outlift most? would like to see some solid proof of your opinionated statement.

Ditto to that.

Carbs + water = glycogen. And we know what role glycogen plays.

[bradhore]

Ditto to that.

Carbs + water = glycogen. And we know what role glycogen plays.

what do you mean???

[MR10X]

what do you mean???

carbs are protien sparing,if you dont get enough carbs your body will use protien for energy. You need carbs to store water in your cells,you will lose muscle if you dont get enough carbs.

[big an rich]

carbs are protien sparing,if you dont get enough carbs your body will use protien for energy. You need carbs to store water in your cells,you will lose muscle if you dont get enough carbs.

I don't want to enter into too much of a debate about this as the OP was only asking if you need more.

One point I will make here though is fat is protein sparing also. Research the various articles on carb timing or cycling diets. I agree that you need some carbs but I will say that some is a very broad amount. In real terms a lot of trainers, myself included, have trace amounts of carbs (8g or less per meal) to great effect and maintain single digit BF levels but high strength levels.

The more your body uses fats for energy the more accustomed it becomes in using them as it's primary source of fuel the better you will become adapted to being carb depleted but not strength and energy depleted.

Article to follow ( I can feel this on it's way to the diet section as I type)

[big an rich]

The effect of carbohydrates on your body
Once digested, carbohydrates are eventually metabolised into blood glucose. If available, this will be the primary energy source used by the body for all its normal metabolic functions. If an excessive amount of carbohydrates are ingested, they will be converted into triglycerides and stored as fat. Not so bad you may think, as eating an excess of anything will obviously lead to fat gain, but this is not the whole picture When levels of blood glucose increase, the body releases insulin . Insulin effectively makes body cells take up nutrients faster, so an increase in insulin will increase storage of the carbohydrates in the muscle cells, where it becomes glycogen. This will lead to nice full looking muscles. Remember however, that if you consume an excess of carbohydrates some will be converted into triglycerides. Unfortunately, the increased insulin levels will cause more triglycerides to be stored, but instead of being stored in the muscle cells, they will be stored in the adipose cells as body fat.

That isn't the only negative effect of raising insulin levels. There are, in fact, a whole host of negative effects. One of the main problems is the bodies' inability to assess just how much insulin is needed to clear the excess blood glucose from your system. It always overshoots a little and releases too much insulin. The degree of the overshoot will be dependant on the type of carbohydrate consumed so before we go further, I will digress slightly and talk about carbohydrate types. For those who have a good grasp of sugars/starches and fibre you can skip the next section.

Carbohydrate classification

There are 3 main types of carbohydrate, these are:

1. Complex carbohydrates: These are the slow digesting, low glycaemic index (GI) carbohydrates that will slowly increase blood glucose and cause the body to release a steady stream of insulin over a couple of hours. Examples of low GI carbohydrates are oats, barley and sweet potatoes.

2. Simple (sugary) carbohydrates: The fast digesting high GI carbohydrates that raise blood glucose very quickly and force the body to output a lot of insulin in a short period of time. Examples of high GI carbohydrates are dextrose, refined cereal grains and boiled sweets.

3. Fibre: There are 2 types of fibre, soluble and insoluble. Although they are very important for health, their direct effect on blood glucose is minimal so we can ignore them for the minute, although they will be discussed later.

Insulin response

The amount of insulin secreted will be dependant on the amount and type of carbohydrate ingested. Eating a small amount of low GI carbohydrates, for example 50g oats, will only produce a small insulin response and only a small amount of excess insulin. Eating a massive amount of high GI carbohydrate, for example 80g dextrose, will cause a massive spike in blood glucose and the body will secrete huge amounts of insulin to deal with this. Because the body will never know exactly how much insulin is needed, to clear the bloodstream of the excess glucose, it will invariably produce far too much.
The obvious question you will be asking now is why is this such a bad thing? Yes, it may cause a little bit of fat storage due to the triglycerides, but as long as you are eating roughly the correct amount of calories a day for your needs it doesn't matter, right? Wrong!

The extra insulin produced will lower blood glucose slightly more than is necessary, leaving your body in need of a way to increase it. Here are 2 examples of the feeling I experienced while high carbohydrate dieting.

Example 1

A meal consisting of 100g oats, 300ml milk and 4 egg whites, providing roughly 35g protein, 75g carbohydrate and 10g fat. This was a staple meal of mine when using the high carbohydrate approach and without fail I would be extremely hungry 2-3hours later. So much so, if I didn't eat again within this time I would feel dizzy, light headed and very fatigued.

Example 2

A shake consisting of 50g whey protein and 50g dextrose, providing 40g protein, 50g carbohydrate and negligible amounts of fat. This is an example of a highly advised post workout shake, supposedly shuttling a lot of nutrients to the muscles quickly after a workout. Again I would get the light headed, dizzy feeling but it would come about 45minutes after ingestion and be much more severe.

In Example 1, because the carbohydrates were digested and absorbed slowly there was a steady release of blood glucose and hence insulin. When the extra glucose supplies ran out there would still be excess insulin, leading to low blood sugar levels and, ultimately, hunger. This often leads to overeating and the urge to eat more than your daily quota of calories, even when you are tying to gain weight.

In Example 2 the sugary carbohydrates were absorbed very quickly, spiking blood glucose and hence insulin causing a rapid storage of the carbohydrates. Because of the massive amounts of insulin being released the blood glucose is quickly stored and a lot of insulin is left behind causing levels of blood glucose to fall below the normal level. This causes the ill feeling and means you have to eat again not long after.
The problems associated with a high insulin output
So far I have only talked about the immediate, superficial effects of insulin without looking at the deeper problems associated with having a constantly high insulin output. Here we shall investigate the long term negative effects that a high carbohydrate diet may cause.

Type 2 diabetes

Type 2 diabetes is caused when the insulin receptors in your cells get "clogged up" and cannot recognise insulin as well. This means the body must produce extra insulin to clear the bloodstream, which in turn has the effect of "clogging up" the receptors even more, causing more insulin to be needed again, not a state you want your body to get into.
Exercise can strongly decrease your chances of developing type 2 diabetes.

Your carbohydrate choices will have the greatest effect on your likelihood of getting type 2 diabetes. It is highly unlikely that a diet of low GI carbohydrates and minimal sugars would ever lead to a person becoming a type 2 diabetic; unless there was a hereditary history. If this was the case however, and you have a family history of type 2 diabetes I would strongly recommend a lower carbohydrate diet.

Fatigue

Have you ever felt tired and sluggish, even though you have just taken a week off training and have slept a full 8 hours every night for the last month? Again, high carbohydrate consumption could well be the culprit. Consumption of a large amount of carbohydrates causes a neurotransmitter called serotonin to be released in the brain. While a small amount of serotonin is a very good thing, as it has a calming, anxiety reducing effect, too much can lead to a strong feeling of drowsiness and fatigue.

Peaks and troughs in energy levels
A subject closely linked to the above, I will return to my previous examples. After consumption of the low GI meal (Example 1) you may well feel a little sluggish for about 30minutes, then have loads of energy for the next 2 hours, then feel sluggish and eventually hungry again. After consumption of a high GI meal (Example 2) you will probably have loads of immediate energy but this will soon taper off leaving you feeling sluggish. This may be especially noticed by those of you that have a sugary shake pre workout, I wouldn't be surprised if your energy levels started flailing towards the end of your workouts.

Excess fat storage

As previously mentioned, having a lot of insulin floating around your system all day will lead to excess fat storage, which I would assume is not one of your goals. This is not only because of the aforementioned conversion of glucose to triglycerides but also the fats you eat will be more readily stored in the presence of insulin.

The solution

So far I have only really told you what you shouldn't be doing, which is hardly helpful if you don't know what you actually should be doing. My solution is quite simple: replace a majority of the carbohydrates in your diet with fats.

Fats? FATS?? I hear you thinking to yourselves. Why would you want to do that? How could eating large amounts of dietary fat help you to lose body fat, or slow the increase of body fat while bulking? Let me explain with some examples.

Example 3

You are on a cut, eating an average of 500calories, below maintenance, a day. Mr X, who eats a high carbohydrate diet, has trouble controlling his insulin levels as his blood glucose goes up and down all day after his carbohydrate rich meals. As mentioned before, his appetite will be increased, which is a big problem when trying to lose weight. Mr Y however, is on a lower carbohydrate diet and has replaced all the carbohydrate rich foods with high fat foods. Whereas Mr X had peaks and troughs in his blood glucose and insulin levels, Mr Y has a lower, very stable level of blood glucose as fat and protein have a much lower effect on insulin than carbohydrates. He is, therefore, able to control his appetite better and as fats are slower digesting he could be full for 4-5 hours. Thus, losing weight for Mr Y should be a lot easier.

Example 4

You are bulking, eating an average of 500calories over maintenance per day. We return to Mr X on his high carbohydrate diet and see that his levels of blood glucose and insulin are often high, leading to a lot of the excess calories being converted and or stored as fat. Whereas Mr Y, who is eating a lot of dietary fat and minimising carbohydrates has lower insulin levels and although a lot of fats are ingested and present in the bloodstream, the body will tend to store them less. Mr Y can also eat fewer much larger meals as his hunger is satisfied for longer periods of time, which is often more convenient when out and about or at work.

Why should you listen to me?

Although in the past I have often been a culprit of reading the science and demanding what happens in the lab must happen in the real world, this time I also have personal experience. All of the above problems with carbohydrates are things I, and many others, have experienced; I am simply offering an explanation as to why they happen. As I have now been on a lower carbohydrate diet for some time, I hope to share what I have found and hopefully help you through some of the problems you may experience.

The conversion

It is not plain sailing going from a high carbohydrate diet to a high fat diet. If you have been eating a lot of carbohydrates for a long time your body is going to be conditioned to use them as your primary source of fuel. Randomly dropping them from your diet on any given day is going to lead to trouble. I remember the first two weeks of my low carbohydrate experience were no fun at all (and I still ate carbohydrates around workouts too, something I still advocate as you will find out later). I would feel very lethargic, often crave sugary foods and had trouble sleeping. After the first two weeks, however, it was like I had a new lease of life and I now feel great almost all of the time. I never have the ravenous hunger pangs I used to suffer after a high carbohydrate meal and more importantly, my gym sessions are better than ever. I now happily refer to myself as being a "fat burner".

Recommendations

Some people will advise restricting carbohydrates to post workout only but I have never been this extreme. I advocate carbohydrates before training, after training and before bed. Although the first two may be obvious choices, as this is when you expel the most energy, you may question my use of carbohydrates before bed. I'm not talking about a huge amount of carbohydrates, merely 30g or thereabouts (low GI) to increase serotonin levels and give you a better nights sleep. Some people may argue that carbohydrates taken before bed will simply settle as fat, and may blunt GH output. However, I beleive 30g carbohydrates is such a tiny amount (120calories) that any fat storage will be negligible, as will the GH output of any normal human being.

[big an rich]

I have a national level powerlifter to thank for that one (not my work).

[FireGuy]

I see. So you apparently know my physiology/chemistry better than I do. Is that it? You watched my progress while both on and off a carb rich diet, correct? Shut your mouth. If it works for you, great. What worked for me proved that carbs, at least for some, aren't needed, and in fact are a detriment. Your opinions count for nothing as it relates to my results.

Maybe you need to reread your post #5.

Sorry, the answer is no. Carbs are a myth, period, Get your calories from protein and unsaturated fats as the majority. Whatever you can do to eliminate carbs, do it. You could get 4500 calories and 350 grams of protein a day from eating just 1 lb of peanut butter, 1 lb of beef and three protein shakes. You need nothing else and can substitute different meats and nuts for the above if you want. Want to be huge AND cut? NO carbs.....period. That is seriously old school thinking. They dont even provide the energy that was always claimed. I eat next to no carbs and can probably outlift most people. Total BS. Carbs are the enemy.

This doesnt sound to me like you are telling anyone what works for you. This is you telling us what will work best for us. Had you said "if it works for you great" in the first place you wouldnt be stuck defending yourself against such an ignorant statement you initially made.

[FireGuy]

Sorry, the answer is no. Carbs are a myth, period, Get your calories from protein and unsaturated fats as the majority. Whatever you can do to eliminate carbs, do it. You could get 4500 calories and 350 grams of protein a day from eating just 1 lb of peanut butter, 1 lb of beef and three protein shakes. You need nothing else and can substitute different meats and nuts for the above if you want. Want to be huge AND cut? NO carbs.....period. That is seriously old school thinking. They dont even provide the energy that was always claimed. I eat next to no carbs and can probably outlift most people. Total BS. Carbs are the enemy.

Really? Cause I heard that one gram contains 4 calories worth of energy. Please also explain how this is now false?

[Reed]

...

I eat more carbs than protein and I'm pretty ripped and big

[FireGuy]

...

I eat more carbs than protein and I'm pretty ripped and big

Funny, this happened in the diet thread last week too. Had 2-3 guys all over 20% bodyfat debating 3 guys in single digit bodyfat on how to diet.

[Reed]

Funny, this happened in the diet thread last week too. Had 2-3 guys all over 20% bodyfat debating 3 guys in single digit bodyfat on how to diet.

Yeah. To me its all about diet and rotating it

I try not to follow a high protein diet year round cause as we know it can be harmful and those of us that are in it for the long haul should do some more research on different dieting.

Guy over at ukiron was talking about being able to maintain 240lbs at only I believe 150 grams of protein a day. When I took my break post contest last year I slowly dropped the protein down to 175 and maintained 230. But my other macro nutrients were on point.

[FireGuy]

My thoughts exactly, I have really been trying to keep my protein at moderate levels when not in precontest mode. The longer I do this the more health conscious I find myself becoming.

[bradhore]

I consume around 300g protein a day and have done for 3 years now. What is bad about doing this????