please critique my first cycle.

[Dunk]

Good day everyone, I am 27 yo male from Canada, and am looking to try a cycle to bust through some plateaus.

Stats: 5'11.5 , 195 lbs, about 10% bf.

PBs- squat 350 max, 250 for 10s
bench 315 max, 225 for 10s
deadlift 450 max, 315 for 10s
Military press 215 max

At this point in time I am pleased with my lifts- having trained entirely naturally for the past 10 years has yielded some really great results for me, but I am really interested in trying a cycle to see what sorts of gains I could make / maintain.

Having read quite a bit on these forums (what a great resource guys! some fantastic research backed up by scientific data too!) I have pieced together what I would consider a reasonable first cycle:

1 – 4 D-bol 40mg ED
1 – 10 Test Enan 500mg/wk
1 – 12 Nolvadex 10mg ED
1 – 12 L-dex .25mg ED

Start PCT 2 weeks after last Test Enan injection

Day 1 300mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva / .25mg L-dex
Day 2 - 30 100mg Clomid / 20mg Nolva / .25mg L-dex
Day 31 - 37 20mg Nolva / .25mg L-dex

What do you guys think? Any changes to this or does it look pretty solid? My training style involves an HIT / powerlifting hybrid program that has worked quite well for me. I imagine that given my natural abilities that with this sort of cycle I should be able to get each of my numbers up by at least 50 pounds. Post cycle I am hoping to maintain a lean 205-210, with moderate overall strength increase- my big goal is to increase my working set weights by 30-40 pounds.

My diet has been and will continue to be solid as well- I am consuming somewhere between 2900-3500 calories clean averaging approximately 250 grams of protein per day, and between 300-500 grams of carbs. I feel great, just looking for that edge. Thanks all.

[Flier]

I can start :-)
I´m starting my first cycle in 4 weeks, same as yours, so no experience, but have asked tons of q´s on this forum, and this is what I think they will advise u:
Skip D-bol! Only 1 AAS for your first cycle. You will with a proper diet reach your goals no prob, without the extra bloat and higher risk of sides.
Skip Nolv and L-dex on your cycle, but keep "On hand" just in case u start experiencing sides caused by excessive Estrogen....then add L-dex, and maybe Nolv if u feel u need for Cholesterol control.
Skip L-dex on PCT if u have gone through your cycle with no sides, add only if u need.
Drop CLomid dose to 50 after first week.
ADD HCG to your cycle. 125-250 2x week, starting on your 3´rd week, right up to, but not during your PCT.
Of course...split your E, 2x week.
What u guys think?

[Dunk]

I can start :-)
I´m starting my first cycle in 4 weeks, same as yours, so no experience, but have asked tons of q´s on this forum, and this is what I think they will advise u:
Skip D-bol! Only 1 AAS for your first cycle. You will with a proper diet reach your goals no prob, without the extra bloat and higher risk of sides.
Skip Nolv and L-dex on your cycle, but keep "On hand" just in case u start experiencing sides caused by excessive Estrogen....then add L-dex, and maybe Nolv if u feel u need for Cholesterol control.
Skip L-dex on PCT if u have gone through your cycle with no sides, add only if u need.
Drop CLomid dose to 50 after first week.
ADD HCG to your cycle. 125-250 2x week, starting on your 3´rd week, right up to, but not during your PCT.
Of course...split your E, 2x week.
What u guys think?

Your advice is certainly great- thanks. Where I am having difficulty is figuring out where it would be better to use HCG- have a look at the long posts I put up you will see what I mean.

[38jumper38]

Nolvadex for cholesterol control?

[Flier]

Nolvadex for cholesterol control?

By BASK8KACE:

" FYI- Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) is a SERM(Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator). This means on certain tissue it can act antagonisticaly or agonistically. In the case of lipid profiles, It acts agonistically. So, running tamoxifen with your anti e's will IMPROVE your cholesterol profile even if not on cycle or using any gear or other anti e's. It's just plain good for cholesterol."

"The best combo is exemestane and tamoxifen together. Your cholesterol will be as good as can be considering your on a cycle of steroids . The dose of aromasin will vary depending on the users needs and how much aromatizing gear is being taken. Usually 10-25mg ed works well. Run 10mg ed nolva to improve your cholesterol."

"I think we all need to stop only worrying about side effects that we can see visually. Cholesterol KILLS many people around the world everyday(well not directly kills but leads to it). steroids are hUrting us badly in this sense. steroids do mess our cholesterol up pretty badly, and we will pay for it later in life. Now not many of us are going to stop using gear because of that, but we should at least take the proper other drugs to help minimize."

[MBMETC]

good day everyone, i am 27 yo male from canada, and am looking to try a cycle to bust through some plateaus.

Stats: 5'11.5 , 195 lbs, about 10% bf.

Pbs- squat 350 max, 250 for 10s
bench 315 max, 225 for 10s
deadlift 450 max, 315 for 10s
military press 215 max

at this point in time i am pleased with my lifts- having trained entirely naturally for the past 10 years has yielded some really great results for me, but i am really interested in trying a cycle to see what sorts of gains i could make / maintain.

Having read quite a bit on these forums (what a great resource guys! Some fantastic research backed up by scientific data too!) i have pieced together what i would consider a reasonable first cycle:

1 – 4 d-bol 40mg ed-ok, it's your choice if you want to run d-bol
1 – 10 test enan 500mg/wk -ok
1 – 12 nolvadex 10mg ed-not needed on cycle
1 – 12 l-dex .25mg ed-ok
start pct 2 weeks after last test enan injection-good
day 1 300mg clomid / 20mg nolva / .25mg l-dex
day 2 - 30 100mg clomid / 20mg nolva / .25mg l-dex
day 31 - 37 20mg nolva / .25mg l-dex
pct should look like thisclomid 100/100/50/50
nolva 40/40/20/20
drop the L-DEX in pct

what do you guys think? Any changes to this or does it look pretty solid? My training style involves an hit / powerlifting hybrid program that has worked quite well for me. I imagine that given my natural abilities that with this sort of cycle i should be able to get each of my numbers up by at least 50 pounds. Post cycle i am hoping to maintain a lean 205-210, with moderate overall strength increase- my big goal is to increase my working set weights by 30-40 pounds.

My diet has been and will continue to be solid as well- i am consuming somewhere between 2900-3500 calories clean averaging approximately 250 grams of protein per day, and between 300-500 grams of carbs. I feel great, just looking for that edge. Thanks all.

^^bold

[MACHINE5150]

I agree with what MBMETC said except i wanted to say you can take EITHER the nolvadex or the Ldex.. i know people that run nolvadex the whole cycle and like it.. it does pretty much the same thing as thh Ldex does.. i would say just run ldex through out cycle and then use the nolvadex for PCT (no need for both in PCT either)

good luck, i think your goals are completley acheiveable and maintainable on your frame.

[MBMETC]

I agree with what MBMETC said except i wanted to say you can take EITHER the nolvadex or the Ldex.. i know people that run nolvadex the whole cycle and like it.. it does pretty much the same thing as thh Ldex does.. i would say just run ldex through out cycle and then use the nolvadex for PCT (no need for both in PCT either)

good luck, i think your goals are completley acheiveable and maintainable on your frame.

correct to control estrogen with the use of an ai when using nolvadex will block estrogen from binding to breast tissue is redundant.

[dosXX]

It's recommended that you do not take nolva while taking arimidex because combining the two will minimize the arimidex's effectiveness.

[Dunk]

Awesome feedback guys- thanks very much. Ok well for PCT I will run Nolva and Clomide at 100-100-50-50, and 40-40-20-20 respectively. I will use the LDEX while on cycle- should I have nolva on hand in case of sides or should the Ldex pretty much negate the need for this? Thanks again everyone.

[MBMETC]

Awesome feedback guys- thanks very much. Ok well for PCT I will run Nolva and Clomide at 100-100-50-50, and 40-40-20-20 respectively. I will use the LDEX while on cycle- should I have nolva on hand in case of sides or should the Ldex pretty much negate the need for this? Thanks again everyone.

L-dex should handle the estro related sides. But you should have your nolva and clomid on hand before you start your cycle

[Dunk]

L-dex should handle the estro related sides. But you should have your nolva and clomid on hand before you start your cycle

absolutely. I am in no rush to get on this till I get my PCT in order. It is just good to know how much I should buy beforehand.

[cro]

play it smart ,have a plan.

absolutely. I am in no rush to get on this till I get my PCT in order. It is just good to know how much I should buy beforehand.

[Dunk]

What are the opinions on HCG ? Is it necessary if using L-dex while on cycle?

[MBMETC]

What are the opinions on HCG? Is it necessary if using L-dex while on cycle?

Hcg if you can get it use it.
You seem to need a lot more reading, these questions you should be able to answer yourself through education.
Don't take this lightly educate yourself on everything you want to put in your body.

[MACHINE5150]

hcg if you can get it use it.
You seem to need a lot more reading, these questions you should be able to answer yourself through education.
Don't take this lightly educate yourself on everything you want to put in your body.

^^^^x2

[layeazy]

HCG for sure decent cycle you should make some gains definitely wouldn't use 300mg of clomid which you stated you would get some mega sides...

[Dunk]

HCG for sure decent cycle you should make some gains definitely wouldn't use 300mg of clomid which you stated you would get some mega sides...

Yeah you are right- this was based again on some info that I read on here, but the lower initial dose would be preferable.

"Pheedno's PCT
My post cycle therapy consists of a three compound administration which is designed so that there is a primary and secondary LH stimulator which both are maximizing potential early in the duration; with the primary being phased out in extended protocol. With the addition of an Aromatase Inhibitor, which makes the above possible, the individual will also endure less of an increase in Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which allows free testosterone levels to reach base line at a much quicker pace. The individual will also see less of a problem in most cases with sexual libido as the bounding SHBG is controlled(to an extent). Below you will find my suggested bare minimum, as well as a sample of an extended protocol. Extended PCT protcol is cycle length dependant so the below is not the standard for all cycles


PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva"

as per pheendo's post, 100 mg clomide for 30 days ? so no tapering off? would this no yield some ugly sides?

[Dunk]

Don't get me wrong, my question is based on conflicting info about HCG . I am leaning toward using if I can get it. If it is available I will use for the last 3 - 4 weeks of cycle- just was not sure if it would interfere with LDEX.

[MBMETC]

Don't get me wrong, my question is based on conflicting info about HCG. I am leaning toward using if I can get it. If it is available I will use for the last 3 - 4 weeks of cycle- just was not sure if it would interfere with LDEX.

OK and no conflict in useing hcg with l-dex

[Flier]

So you´re saying no AI in PCT?
What about Pheendo´s PCT, where he advocates the use of AI in PCT? You disagree? and why?

"Pheedno's PCT
My post cycle therapy consists of a three compound administration which is designed so that there is a primary and secondary LH stimulator which both are maximizing potential early in the duration; with the primary being phased out in extended protocol. With the addition of an Aromatase Inhibitor, which makes the above possible, the individual will also endure less of an increase in Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which allows free testosterone levels to reach base line at a much quicker pace. The individual will also see less of a problem in most cases with sexual libido as the bounding SHBG is controlled(to an extent). Below you will find my suggested bare minimum, as well as a sample of an extended protocol. Extended PCT protcol is cycle length dependant so the below is not the standard for all cycles


PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva"

[D7M]

So you´re saying no AI in PCT?
What about Pheendo´s PCT, where he advocates the use of AI in PCT? You disagree? and why?

I wouldn't run an AI in pct either. I don't see the point of inhibiting Estrogen in the absence of androgens.

[Dunk]

Having found more information on here about HCG , and various PCT protocols, what is the consensus on this therapy?:

This post is fairly old, but has some fantastic information and really solid logic behind it. Would the suggested pct advised at the end of this post be better? I would assume that LDEX could be used from day one and HCG beginning in the last 3-4 weeks of test in addition to post cycle?


Please give me your thoughts on this as well- and advise- it seems pretty solid.

Originally Posted by Pinnacle
Under the control of this heightened state of androgens, you also go through androgenic development as well as anabolic development. This can be seen in puberty when males grow body hair experience voice changes, as experience genital development and growth.

Another characteristic of androgens in the body is that they are subject to what’s known as a “negative feedback loop”. Lets review one of the first things I mentioned, ok? Your Hypothalamus secretes GnRH, thus making the pituitary secrete LH & FSH, finally in turn causing the testes to stimulate the Leydig cells to produce testosterone (by conversion of cholesterol), remember? Ok, now, once testosterone is created however, it has the ability to in turn to undergo various metabolic processes that will inhibit GnRH, which in turn inhibits the secretion of LH and FSH, and that brings a halt to natural testosterone production. Once testosterone has stopped being produced, it no longer sends this negative signal, and GnRH eventually begins to do its job again. In this way, your body prevents excess hormones from being secreted and thus maintaining homeostasis (the status quo… in this case a state where you are neither gaining nor losing muscle) (1). This negative feedback loop is partially why we use anabolic steroids …we want more testosterone for anabolic purposes (or more Anavar or whatever) than our body will let us produce (not that our bodies produce Anavar, but you get the idea). When we use that injectable testosterone, it sends the message to our body to begin the negative feedback loop and discontinue producing/secreting the hormones that cause our natural testosterone production. The chart below clearly shows this process, displaying both the negative and positive feedback system(s):


So what I’m saying is that anabolic steroids increase androgen levels in the blood, bringing a halt to GnRH, making the pituitary gland (eventually) responds by reducing the release of LH; this loss of LH has the effect of shutting down testosterone, of course, which you know is produced by the Leydig cells in the testes after they are stimulated by LH. Am I being repetitive? Yes. Do you need to understand all of this in order to understand the PCT protocol I’m about to outline? Yes. Remember, the negative feedback loop is, of course, no problem while we are on a cycle. Want more testosterone (or androgens) in your body? Fill up a few
more syringes!

But all good things come to an end, and most of us choose to end our cycles at some point. At this point, while there is still some androgens floating around in us, our natural production won’t begin, and even once they are out, there may be some lag time before your body figures out that it needs to start producing its own androgens again. As I said before, this lag time is severely catabolic and it’s where you lose a lot of your gains. SO what we need to do is coax the body into quickly producing its own androgens.

One of the first drugs we’ll consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others. That’s the “selective” part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids - meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue. However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it’s most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7). Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34).

Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37). The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why don’t we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH
(Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I’m suggesting…and in fact, avoided in general…it’s simply not as good as Nolvadex.

Need I even add that the 150mgs of Clomid you need to get the hormonal increase experienced with 20mgs of Nolvadex is much more expensive? So lets dump the Clomid…and no, using it along with Nolvadex will provide no “synergy” that I’ve ever seen in any relevant study.

SO how much Nolvadex should you use during PCT? I favor using 20mgs.day, although to be totally honest, you can probably even get away with far less than that. Doses as low as 5mgs/day have proven to be as effective as 20mgs/day for certain areas of gonadal stimulation. (8) 20mgs/day, however, is a dose that myself and others have used with great success, and the research I’ve done in this area typically uses this milligram amount. SO lets stick with 20mgs/day for now.

So that effectively suggests Nolvadex can not be used at Mega-doses to get a mega-increase in your natural hormones. We can’t use huge doses of any Anti-Estrogen, actually, and expect huge increases in our natural hormones, actually. Arimidex (an Aromatase Inhibitor –which means it stops the conversion of testosterone into estrogen-another drug used to fight breast cancer like Nolvadex) exhibits basically the same effects when .5mgs or a full 1mg is used (9) and I have even read studies where up to 10mgs/day of Arimidex is studied with no clear benefit over 1mg/day. Letrozole (another Aromatase Inhibitor) is capable of inhibiting Aromatase maximally at a mere 100mcg/day (10.). So clearly we need to add in other compounds to our PCT, because Mega-Doses of one compound will not I think it’s absurdly funny to see people recommending upwards 40-80mgs/day of Nolvadex, or a full milligram (or two!) of Arimidex, in their post-cycle or on-cycle suggestions. I’d steer very clear of listening to anyone who makes those types of recommendations…

All of this tells me that you can’t simply use mega-doses of Anti-Estrogens or SERMS to do anything more than reasonable doses. It must be, therefore, that your body can only respond with so much vigor to any one drug in those families. So lets add in another drug or two, ok? This way we can use reasonable doses of a few drugs and produce some synergy…hopefully decreasing our recovery time.

We’ll need something to go with Nolvadex, which acts in a different manner, and Human Chorionic Gonadatropin (HCG) is the clear choice here. Here’s where things get a bit controversial (no, really…I know you , because I’m pretty much the only person around (currently) who recommends HCG for Post-Cycle Therapy. Although I’m seen as Old School in this respect, really, this is a totally new paradigm for HCG use, made possible only by the inclusion of the other compounds I am introducing to you for PCT. HCG is the natural choice, as it has been used successfully to cure AAS induced (11), and this alone warrants its inclusion to our cycle.

HCG is a peptide hormone manufactured by the embryo in the early stages of pregnancy and later by the placenta to help control a pregnant woman’s hormones (can anything really be said to control a pregnant woman’s hormones except ice-cream and chocolate?). Obviously, as you can guess from the name, it is a substance that stimulates the gonads (hence: gonadotropin). It does this by initiating gene transcription that is identical to that of Luetenizing Hormone, thereby causing the Leydig Cells to produce testosterone. Sounds great right? We can stimulate LH and FSH production with our Nolvadex, and then directly stimulate the Leydig Cells as well, to produce tons of testosterone by different routes! Well...it’s not all that simple.

Unfortunately, while HCG increases Testosterone, it increases estrogen as well(12). As you probably know, estrogen acts directly on the Leydig cells to effect changes in the activities of enzymes important for testosterone synthesis (13) and may actually be considered an important part of that negative feedback loop I mentioned earlier. In addition, an increase in circulating levels of LH have been shown to induce down-regulation of LH-receptors in both rodent studies (14), as well as in human studies (15); since HCG mimics LH, you can expect it to do the same. This LH downregulation can cause an increase in steroidogenic cholesterol (the cholesterol earmarked by your body for conversion into testosterone). (16). Thus, after the initial HCG induced surge in testosterone is over, if you have used enough to downregulate your LH-receptors and increase estrogen too much, then more steroidogenic cholesterol is available. This is telling me that less is being converted to testosterone. In fact, rodent models suggest that if you take a dose large enough to cause a sharp increase of plasma testosterone, you will actually desensitize your Leydig cells to your next shot, and will possibly not experience any rise in testosterone from the second dose at all, or may only experience a very slight one at best (17.). Since this is due to LH-Receptor downregulation, and that occurs in human models too, it is pretty fair to assume that if your first dose of HCG is too large, your second won’t be very effective. Unfortunately, this lack of an increase in testosterone doesn’t necessarily mean that the HCG may be unable to increase circulating levels of Estrogen (18) And remember that increase in Estrogen will (most likely) cause your body ultimately to produce less testosterone. Low LH post-cycle is not the primary cause of slow recovery, because LH generally rises to levels above baseline after a cycle much sooner than testosterone production does. This is probably because the pituitary is working very hard to get your atrophied Leydig cells to start producing testosterone again. HCG should also bring back testicular volume; I feel the need to mention this because it’s important to me and I suspect most men as well.
It would also appear that HCG works very well when it’s used on men who have low levels of LH to begin with (as you would be after a cycle), as many studies on pre-pubertal boys and Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadal men would suggest (19)

This suggests that a pre-exposure to normal LH levels or gonadatropins in general is necessary for HCG-induced Leydig Cell desensitization. This, of course is not a problem for us, as we’ll be using it when LH/Gonadatropin levels are very low anyway …we just need to stop using it before we regain normal function, or it will work against us eventually. (19) (20). Luckily, the temporary Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism that is experienced after a cycle basically allows us to respond to HCG like anyone with low LH levels (21), and thus, as I told you, a lot of the possible inhibitory effect of HCG is not going to be relevant because there was no prior “priming” by circulating gonadotrophins. This is great news for us, because we are going to be using HCG during PCT, when we need to get back some HPTA function, and not when we have levels of gonadatropins high enough to cause HCG-induced desensitization.

But are we still risking some inhibition and possibly delaying our recovery by using HCG? Probably not…you see, some studies in humans have shown that HCG does not actually have a direct effect on inhibiting LH release in men (22)(23), but rather (probably) works to inhibit LH secretion indirectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone (thus activating the negative feedback loop). Another factor involved is the induction of testicular aromatase, which raises estrogen levels, again causing inhibition. Unfortunately, yet another process, the downregulation of the Leydig Cell LH receptor itself, seems to also play a role in high dose HCG testicular desensitization. This is also done by HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) to testosterone (24). Nolvadex actually stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place (25). Most likely, because of Nolvadex’s direct antiestrogenic effect and LH-upregulating effect on the Pituitary, suppression of gonadotropins via HCG is (25) almost totally stopped with concurrent administration of Nolvadex! So if we Use Nolvadex and we are only using HCG when we are low in gonadatropins, we won’t be inhibited by it at all! Right?

Well…maybe…but there’s still the issue of estrogen caused by that HCG-stimulated surge in testosterone. Well…we can use low doses (300iu or so) to avoid some of that major spike in estrogen, and thus cause far less inhibition from the HCG (26). Of course, I’d want to use a bit more HCG per injection (500iu), if I could, to get my body functioning fully more quickly, and lose less of my gains. Maybe we can get away with taking some Vitamin E with our HCG, since it increases the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG, making them significantly higher during vitamin E administration than without it (27). So we can get a better
response with our HCG by taking Vitamin E (I recommend 1,000iu/day), but that doesn’t get rid of the problem that we have, which is the estrogen increase the HCG will cause.

Lets solve that pesky estrogen problem now….

Lets add in an Aromatase Inhibitor! Which one, though? Well, since we are already using Nolvadex, we can’t use Letrozole or Arimidex, as the Nolvadex will actually greatly decrease the blood plasma levels of them (28)!

So we have to use Aromasin (exemestane) as our AI, because it’s an aromatase inactivator, meaning it makes estrogen receptors useless, and instead of just inhibiting production (as an anti-aromatase would do) it cuts off production totally. Aromasin can also cause androgenic sides (29)(30)(31), which may help to elevate your mood while you are on PCT. This final drug in my recommended PCT can effectively remove up to about 85%+ of estrogen from your body (32). Most importantly, using Aromasin together with Nolvadex doesn’t reduce exemestane’s effectiveness (33). So now, I think the problem of ANY inhibition possible with HCG is solved, and we can use that 500iu/day dose that I wanted to use previously.

With this PCT, there will be a rapid increase in LH, FSH, and testosterone, as well as almost a complete block on all the factors that could be causing your natural hormones to be delayed in returning to baseline. For this reason, I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you’ve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectiveness…it simply prolongs the time you aren’t doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. And how long do we run this for? Well…we need to stop the HCG relatively soon for reasons discussed earlier. But the Nolvadex, and Aromasin can be used for awhile longer. Ideally, we’d be getting weekly blood work, but we could also get it done monthly, and just running this PCT until we see our natural hormones restored…but weekly bloodwork isn’t really an option for most of us. Failing the option of monitoring recovery with blood-work, I’m going to give you my best thoughts on the time you should be running your PCT. It’s important to note I haven’t discussed nutrition or other compounds that may be beneficial…this is because in this article, I am primarily concerned with the restoration of hormonal function, nothing else. And with no further delays, here are my recommendations for PCT:

Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
6 20mgs/day

[n00bs]

Having found more information on here about HCG , and various PCT protocols, what is the consensus on this therapy?:

This post is fairly old, but has some fantastic information and really solid logic behind it. Would the suggested pct advised at the end of this post be better? I would assume that LDEX could be used from day one and HCG beginning in the last 3-4 weeks of test in addition to post cycle?


Please give me your thoughts on this as well- and advise- it seems pretty solid.

Originally Posted by Pinnacle
Under the control of this heightened state of androgens, you also go through androgenic development as well as anabolic development. This can be seen in puberty when males grow body hair experience voice changes, as experience genital development and growth.

Another characteristic of androgens in the body is that they are subject to what’s known as a “negative feedback loop”. Lets review one of the first things I mentioned, ok? Your Hypothalamus secretes GnRH, thus making the pituitary secrete LH & FSH, finally in turn causing the testes to stimulate the Leydig cells to produce testosterone (by conversion of cholesterol), remember? Ok, now, once testosterone is created however, it has the ability to in turn to undergo various metabolic processes that will inhibit GnRH, which in turn inhibits the secretion of LH and FSH, and that brings a halt to natural testosterone production. Once testosterone has stopped being produced, it no longer sends this negative signal, and GnRH eventually begins to do its job again. In this way, your body prevents excess hormones from being secreted and thus maintaining homeostasis (the status quo… in this case a state where you are neither gaining nor losing muscle) (1). This negative feedback loop is partially why we use anabolic steroids …we want more testosterone for anabolic purposes (or more Anavar or whatever) than our body will let us produce (not that our bodies produce Anavar, but you get the idea). When we use that injectable testosterone, it sends the message to our body to begin the negative feedback loop and discontinue producing/secreting the hormones that cause our natural testosterone production. The chart below clearly shows this process, displaying both the negative and positive feedback system(s):


So what I’m saying is that anabolic steroids increase androgen levels in the blood, bringing a halt to GnRH, making the pituitary gland (eventually) responds by reducing the release of LH; this loss of LH has the effect of shutting down testosterone, of course, which you know is produced by the Leydig cells in the testes after they are stimulated by LH. Am I being repetitive? Yes. Do you need to understand all of this in order to understand the PCT protocol I’m about to outline? Yes. Remember, the negative feedback loop is, of course, no problem while we are on a cycle. Want more testosterone (or androgens) in your body? Fill up a few
more syringes!

But all good things come to an end, and most of us choose to end our cycles at some point. At this point, while there is still some androgens floating around in us, our natural production won’t begin, and even once they are out, there may be some lag time before your body figures out that it needs to start producing its own androgens again. As I said before, this lag time is severely catabolic and it’s where you lose a lot of your gains. SO what we need to do is coax the body into quickly producing its own androgens.

One of the first drugs we’ll consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others. That’s the “selective” part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids - meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue. However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it’s most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7). Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34).

Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37). The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why don’t we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH
(Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I’m suggesting…and in fact, avoided in general…it’s simply not as good as Nolvadex.

Need I even add that the 150mgs of Clomid you need to get the hormonal increase experienced with 20mgs of Nolvadex is much more expensive? So lets dump the Clomid…and no, using it along with Nolvadex will provide no “synergy” that I’ve ever seen in any relevant study.

SO how much Nolvadex should you use during PCT? I favor using 20mgs.day, although to be totally honest, you can probably even get away with far less than that. Doses as low as 5mgs/day have proven to be as effective as 20mgs/day for certain areas of gonadal stimulation. (8) 20mgs/day, however, is a dose that myself and others have used with great success, and the research I’ve done in this area typically uses this milligram amount. SO lets stick with 20mgs/day for now.

So that effectively suggests Nolvadex can not be used at Mega-doses to get a mega-increase in your natural hormones. We can’t use huge doses of any Anti-Estrogen, actually, and expect huge increases in our natural hormones, actually. Arimidex (an Aromatase Inhibitor –which means it stops the conversion of testosterone into estrogen-another drug used to fight breast cancer like Nolvadex) exhibits basically the same effects when .5mgs or a full 1mg is used (9) and I have even read studies where up to 10mgs/day of Arimidex is studied with no clear benefit over 1mg/day. Letrozole (another Aromatase Inhibitor) is capable of inhibiting Aromatase maximally at a mere 100mcg/day (10.). So clearly we need to add in other compounds to our PCT, because Mega-Doses of one compound will not I think it’s absurdly funny to see people recommending upwards 40-80mgs/day of Nolvadex, or a full milligram (or two!) of Arimidex, in their post-cycle or on-cycle suggestions. I’d steer very clear of listening to anyone who makes those types of recommendations…

All of this tells me that you can’t simply use mega-doses of Anti-Estrogens or SERMS to do anything more than reasonable doses. It must be, therefore, that your body can only respond with so much vigor to any one drug in those families. So lets add in another drug or two, ok? This way we can use reasonable doses of a few drugs and produce some synergy…hopefully decreasing our recovery time.

We’ll need something to go with Nolvadex, which acts in a different manner, and Human Chorionic Gonadatropin (HCG) is the clear choice here. Here’s where things get a bit controversial (no, really…I know you , because I’m pretty much the only person around (currently) who recommends HCG for Post-Cycle Therapy. Although I’m seen as Old School in this respect, really, this is a totally new paradigm for HCG use, made possible only by the inclusion of the other compounds I am introducing to you for PCT. HCG is the natural choice, as it has been used successfully to cure AAS induced (11), and this alone warrants its inclusion to our cycle.

HCG is a peptide hormone manufactured by the embryo in the early stages of pregnancy and later by the placenta to help control a pregnant woman’s hormones (can anything really be said to control a pregnant woman’s hormones except ice-cream and chocolate?). Obviously, as you can guess from the name, it is a substance that stimulates the gonads (hence: gonadotropin). It does this by initiating gene transcription that is identical to that of Luetenizing Hormone, thereby causing the Leydig Cells to produce testosterone. Sounds great right? We can stimulate LH and FSH production with our Nolvadex, and then directly stimulate the Leydig Cells as well, to produce tons of testosterone by different routes! Well...it’s not all that simple.

Unfortunately, while HCG increases Testosterone, it increases estrogen as well(12). As you probably know, estrogen acts directly on the Leydig cells to effect changes in the activities of enzymes important for testosterone synthesis (13) and may actually be considered an important part of that negative feedback loop I mentioned earlier. In addition, an increase in circulating levels of LH have been shown to induce down-regulation of LH-receptors in both rodent studies (14), as well as in human studies (15); since HCG mimics LH, you can expect it to do the same. This LH downregulation can cause an increase in steroidogenic cholesterol (the cholesterol earmarked by your body for conversion into testosterone). (16). Thus, after the initial HCG induced surge in testosterone is over, if you have used enough to downregulate your LH-receptors and increase estrogen too much, then more steroidogenic cholesterol is available. This is telling me that less is being converted to testosterone. In fact, rodent models suggest that if you take a dose large enough to cause a sharp increase of plasma testosterone, you will actually desensitize your Leydig cells to your next shot, and will possibly not experience any rise in testosterone from the second dose at all, or may only experience a very slight one at best (17.). Since this is due to LH-Receptor downregulation, and that occurs in human models too, it is pretty fair to assume that if your first dose of HCG is too large, your second won’t be very effective. Unfortunately, this lack of an increase in testosterone doesn’t necessarily mean that the HCG may be unable to increase circulating levels of Estrogen (18) And remember that increase in Estrogen will (most likely) cause your body ultimately to produce less testosterone. Low LH post-cycle is not the primary cause of slow recovery, because LH generally rises to levels above baseline after a cycle much sooner than testosterone production does. This is probably because the pituitary is working very hard to get your atrophied Leydig cells to start producing testosterone again. HCG should also bring back testicular volume; I feel the need to mention this because it’s important to me and I suspect most men as well.
It would also appear that HCG works very well when it’s used on men who have low levels of LH to begin with (as you would be after a cycle), as many studies on pre-pubertal boys and Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadal men would suggest (19)

This suggests that a pre-exposure to normal LH levels or gonadatropins in general is necessary for HCG-induced Leydig Cell desensitization. This, of course is not a problem for us, as we’ll be using it when LH/Gonadatropin levels are very low anyway …we just need to stop using it before we regain normal function, or it will work against us eventually. (19) (20). Luckily, the temporary Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism that is experienced after a cycle basically allows us to respond to HCG like anyone with low LH levels (21), and thus, as I told you, a lot of the possible inhibitory effect of HCG is not going to be relevant because there was no prior “priming” by circulating gonadotrophins. This is great news for us, because we are going to be using HCG during PCT, when we need to get back some HPTA function, and not when we have levels of gonadatropins high enough to cause HCG-induced desensitization.

But are we still risking some inhibition and possibly delaying our recovery by using HCG? Probably not…you see, some studies in humans have shown that HCG does not actually have a direct effect on inhibiting LH release in men (22)(23), but rather (probably) works to inhibit LH secretion indirectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone (thus activating the negative feedback loop). Another factor involved is the induction of testicular aromatase, which raises estrogen levels, again causing inhibition. Unfortunately, yet another process, the downregulation of the Leydig Cell LH receptor itself, seems to also play a role in high dose HCG testicular desensitization. This is also done by HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) to testosterone (24). Nolvadex actually stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place (25). Most likely, because of Nolvadex’s direct antiestrogenic effect and LH-upregulating effect on the Pituitary, suppression of gonadotropins via HCG is (25) almost totally stopped with concurrent administration of Nolvadex! So if we Use Nolvadex and we are only using HCG when we are low in gonadatropins, we won’t be inhibited by it at all! Right?

Well…maybe…but there’s still the issue of estrogen caused by that HCG-stimulated surge in testosterone. Well…we can use low doses (300iu or so) to avoid some of that major spike in estrogen, and thus cause far less inhibition from the HCG (26). Of course, I’d want to use a bit more HCG per injection (500iu), if I could, to get my body functioning fully more quickly, and lose less of my gains. Maybe we can get away with taking some Vitamin E with our HCG, since it increases the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG, making them significantly higher during vitamin E administration than without it (27). So we can get a better
response with our HCG by taking Vitamin E (I recommend 1,000iu/day), but that doesn’t get rid of the problem that we have, which is the estrogen increase the HCG will cause.

Lets solve that pesky estrogen problem now….

Lets add in an Aromatase Inhibitor! Which one, though? Well, since we are already using Nolvadex, we can’t use Letrozole or Arimidex, as the Nolvadex will actually greatly decrease the blood plasma levels of them (28)!

So we have to use Aromasin (exemestane) as our AI, because it’s an aromatase inactivator, meaning it makes estrogen receptors useless, and instead of just inhibiting production (as an anti-aromatase would do) it cuts off production totally. Aromasin can also cause androgenic sides (29)(30)(31), which may help to elevate your mood while you are on PCT. This final drug in my recommended PCT can effectively remove up to about 85%+ of estrogen from your body (32). Most importantly, using Aromasin together with Nolvadex doesn’t reduce exemestane’s effectiveness (33). So now, I think the problem of ANY inhibition possible with HCG is solved, and we can use that 500iu/day dose that I wanted to use previously.

With this PCT, there will be a rapid increase in LH, FSH, and testosterone, as well as almost a complete block on all the factors that could be causing your natural hormones to be delayed in returning to baseline. For this reason, I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you’ve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectiveness…it simply prolongs the time you aren’t doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. And how long do we run this for? Well…we need to stop the HCG relatively soon for reasons discussed earlier. But the Nolvadex, and Aromasin can be used for awhile longer. Ideally, we’d be getting weekly blood work, but we could also get it done monthly, and just running this PCT until we see our natural hormones restored…but weekly bloodwork isn’t really an option for most of us. Failing the option of monitoring recovery with blood-work, I’m going to give you my best thoughts on the time you should be running your PCT. It’s important to note I haven’t discussed nutrition or other compounds that may be beneficial…this is because in this article, I am primarily concerned with the restoration of hormonal function, nothing else. And with no further delays, here are my recommendations for PCT:

Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
6 20mgs/day

Hey can you post the link to this or the references.. Interested in a few things.

Thanks

[Dunk]

Hey can you post the link to this or the references.. Interested in a few things.

Thanks

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...teroid.com-%29 here is a link to the original post.

[Flier]

Interesting post.
Knowing which Androgen and how much, how long to take for first cycle is pretty basic, and will vary from 400-500mgs, and 10-12 weeks.
And I´m set to start in 3 weeks.
But PCT...????..., and AI/no AI...There is so much conflicting information, so very confusing for a beginner.
There is so much info out there advocating the use of HCG during cycle, hence reducing/eliminating the use during PC, so I´m going with that one.

I think what I´m reading as the main reason fir using Nolva over Clomid is that Nolva is "better".
Then he mention the cost of Clomid is "high".....let´s forget about that....and not look at the cost when we are trying to restore our body. (There are a lot of referring to each other as "Bro" here on the forum, which leads me to believe there are a lot of $3000 rims out there, so let´s spend the $ on some Clomid.).... :-)

Think I´m going with this reasoning:

"Now IMO, selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:

1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux
occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex"

[Dunk]

Ok - SO... in another post:

HCG (Pregnyl) FAQ

Note: I got this FAQ from a different board, only Q#6,7,9,10,11 were added and written by me x_moe and few others that were edited to give you more info., hope you find this helpful.


1)What is HCG?
Hcg stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin .

2)Where does hcg come from?
It is extracted from the urine of pregnant women.

3)Is hcg a scheduled medication?
No, its similar to clomid and liquidex as far as US laws go. However you would need a prescription to purchase legally in the US.

4)What is hcg normally used for?
It is used to help females get pregnant, and can be used to stimulate testosterone production in males.

5)How does hcg work?
Hcg mimics LH(leutenizing hormone). The presence of LH causes the Leydig cells in the gonads to produce testosterone. This effect also restores the size of the testes rather quickly if they were suppressed from a cycle.

6)What should hcg be used for?
Hcg is commonly used by bodybuilders on either very heavy or very long cycles, when the hpta gets severely suppressed. Although hcg can be used in almost any cycle, the benefits are most pronounced on heavy/long ones.

7)How do you take it?
You can take it IM or Sub-q.

8)Can I use hcg only for Pct?
No you shouldn't. It is better than nothing, but clomid or nolva are far better plans. Since hcg mimics lh, your body wont begin producing its own lh, as it sees no need to because test levels are high. You stop the hcg, your balls stop making test until your body begins producing adequate levels of its own lh, and that may take a while if you don't use clomid or nolvadex to stimulate lh production. The use of Clomid or Nolvadex should also be continued at least 2 weeks after hcg is discontinued to avoid the hcg causing problems.

9)Can I use hcg during cycle and when?
Yes you can, imo to best benefit from Hcg is to run it by the last 3-4 weeks of your steroid cycle. Do not run hcg if your getting signs of gyno, hcg will make it worst, so becarful.

10)How much Hcg is needed during cycle and/or pct?
For pct a minimum of 10,000iu's hcg is needed. When you have a proper pct planned with a serm and an AI, and you want to run hcg during the last 4 weeks of your cycle, then you might only need 5,000iu's.
An anti-estrogen (Nolva, etc.) is to be used with hcg during your last 4 weeks of cycle.

11)What dose do you run hcg at?
Hcg is best dosed at 500iu and/or 1000iu, more than that can cause too much aromatization, and some people wont react to less than 500iu. So during the last 4 weeks of a cycle, you shoot 500iu of hcg twice a week or 1000iu once a week. For pct, 500iu ed or 1000iu eod.

12)Can hcg be used w/out steroids to boost test production above baseline?
Yes. It is not recommended however. Continued use of hcg will desensitize the leydig cells to lh, meaning once you stop using the hcg as an artificial lh, you will crash bad. The natural lh production once restored by using nolvadex or clomid, may not be as effective as it once was. To boost natural test above baseline, anastrozole, nolvadex and clomid are better choices.


13)How long does hcg boost testosterone for?
Hcg can boost testosterone for up to 5 days following the last dose, although the drugs halflife is very short, and its no longer active at that point.

14)Can hcg cause gyno?
Yes. Estrogen is elevated by two ways from hcg use. Primarily from the sharp rise in testosterone, which allows more testosterone to aromatize to estrogen. Secondly hcg can cause a small amount of estrogen to be produced which is not from the result of aromatizing, and this is the reason that a combination of an anti aromatize such as liquidex/arimidex /letrozole and a estrogen receptor blocker such as nolvadex are ideally used. The nolvadex may also offer some additional benefit to help avoid a negative estrogen feedback to the hpta during hcg therapy, which would otherwise slightly lessen the effectiveness of the therapy.

15)How does hcg come packaged?
You get 2 vials or amps, 1 has the powdered hcg in it, and the other has a diluent in it(solvent). The diluent is typically bacteriostatic water, or sterile water w/ .09% sodium chloride. ***ending on the brand and version, the package commonly comes w/ enough diluent to make concentrations ranging from 250-10,000iu per ml.

If your package is 5000iu, and you add 1ml diluent, you have 5000iu per ml.
If you add 5ml diluent, you final mix is then 1000iu per ml.
If you add 10ml diluent, then 500iu per ml and so on.

This is simple math, and you don't wanna screw it up, know what dose you are taking!

If your package doesn't include enough diluent to make the concentration you want, you have 2 options to make it easy to accurately measure your doses.

1-buy some insulin syringes, U-100 type. On the graduated markings, the 100iu mark is equal to 1ml, the 50iu is .5ml etc. THIS DOES NOT MEAN IF YOU FILL IT TO THE 100IU MARK THAT YOU ARE TAKING 100IU OF HCG! Iu's are not a measurement of volume or weight, they are a measure of effectiveness for a desired response from specific drugs/compounds. Every compound is different. These are insulin syringes, and they are made for insulin-not hcg. Insulin is the same iu concentration per ml everytime(if its u100 type), hcg is not. Imagine if you made your hcg 10,000iu per ml. if you fill the insulin syringe up to 100iu mark, you now have 10,000iu in there! Not good. You must understand this.
So if you had 5000iu per ml, and wanted to take a 500iu shot, you would inject 10iu on the insulin syringe scale.

2-buy some bacteriostatic water off the internet, its easily found. Simply add more to dilute it to the desired conscentration. Making lower concentrations are easier and more accurately dosed. Then it can accurately be measured w/ a regular syringe.

Mix the two together, they dissolve very easily. Hcg can be very unstable and to make sure to not shake it and let it foam.... Be careful when reconsituting it . Be gentle and run the bac water down the side of the vial not allowing to foam up... Keep things sterile folks. Unused hcg can be refrigerated and is ok to use within 30 days after the initial mixing.

Remember: Store hcg at controlled room temperature (59° to 86°F)(15° to 30°C). After reconstituting store in refrigerator (36° to 46°F) (2° to 8°C).

Absorption
A detectable rise in hcg is seen in 2 h; peak levels are reached in 6 h and remain at this level for 36 h.

Elimination
hcg levels begin to decline at 48 h and approach baseline at 72 h.

Last


There is some conflicting Info about when to use HCG.

On one hand user X_moe suggests a PCT with no HCG based on Clomide and Nolva. On the other user Pinnacle suggests a PCT WITH HCG

I wonder if the better hybrid would be to run HCG for the last 4 weeks of cycle at low dosages, L-dex throughout- then follow up with Nolva and Aromasin for pct to avoid clomide sides as Aromasin appears to be superior to Clomide. I think I need to make a new topic in PCT...