Is clomid and novadex good enough?

[yamar12008]

27 years old 5..7....185 pounds

Taken Sustanon 350, deca 300, d-bol....


when should i start pct?

[F-Genetics]

Read the stickies...Their are plenty of posts regarding when to start depending upon the compound used. With Sustanon it is 18 days from last pin, and Deca I believe is 21 days. But all you have to do is use the search feature if you can't find it.

[yamar12008]

thanks...I found it

[Far from massive]

Yes that is the standard protocol. You should start PCT after the clearence of the longest ester, in your case it would be best to stop the Deca 10-14 days before the sustanon to let the Deca clear in a test rich environment then start PCT 12-14 days after your last shot of sustanon.

There is a very good article on various PCT regimens by Swifto in the PCT section. Read it and you will get all you information on doses and duration.

By the way if you are one of those people who is bothered by Clomids side effects then you can substitute Toremefine for the Clomid, this is something I always did as Clomid and I did not get along well...

[5x10]

imo, no they are not enough
you will need to run low dose hcg throughout cycle or larger doses prior to end of cycle to regrow lost ledgye cells
without this regrowth, you will not have the full testosterone making capacity that you had prior to starting the cycle

[redz]

you will need to run low dose hcg throughout cycle or larger doses prior to end of cycle to regrow lost ledgye cells
without this regrowth, you will not have the full testosterone making capacity that you had prior to starting the cycle

Show me some proof of this........

[5x10]

Show me some proof of this........

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of HCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using HCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) HCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher HCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or HCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or HCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or HCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6) Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone . (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or HCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.
http://www.**********online.com/hcg-unraveled.shtml

this is basically what ive infered from the readings above and the research i got off of this site in swiftos pct thread

This is one of the most interesting papers I have seen on long term use and recovery.




STREET C, SCALLY MC. Pharmaceutical Intervention of Anabolic Steroid Induced
Hypogonadism - Our Success at Restoration of the HPG Axis. Medicine and Science in Sports
and Exercise 2000;32(5)Suppl.


High-dose anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) administration results in hypogonadotropic
hypogonadism (HH). Physical manifestations can include one or more of the following:
depression, decreased sexual desire, impotence, feelings of apathy, testicular atrophy, and loss of
muscle mass and strength. Due to feedback inhibition, laboratory values drop well below
established physiologic norms: luteinizing hormone (LH) >3.6 IU/L, follicle stimulating
hormone (FSH) >2.25 IU/L, and testosterone (T) >300 ng/dL. A search of the literature reveals
an absence of studies dealing specifically with AAS induced HH, and restoration of normal
endocrine function. We report on two interesting cases of AAS using bodybuilders who were
brought out of the hypogonadal state. Blood samples were taken in the morning for both subjects
and analyzed using chemiluminescence (Quest Diagnostics, Irvine, TX). Post-therapy samples
were taken 15 days after the last hCG injection.

Case 1: 6'0" 206 lbs. 33 yr old Caucasian male
with a 10+ year history of steroid self-administration for bodybuilding and powerlifting. By his
own admission he was a "heavy" user, taking from 500 mg/wk to 2+ grams/wk. Pre-treatment
values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 191 ng/dL. One course of therapy (32 days) was given: 2,500 IU of
hCG every 4 days (8 injections total), 50 mg clomiphene bid and 10 mg tamoxifen qd. Despite
massive drug use patient was an exceptionally good responder. Post-treatment values: LH 5.2
IU/L, T 1072 ng/dL.

Case 2: 5'10" 184 lbs 36 yr old Caucasian male with a 2 yr history of
continuous nandrolone use (200-400 mg/wk). Pre-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 45 ng/dL.

Treat 1
(32 days): 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (8 total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and arimidex (1 mg qd).
Post-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 38 ng/dL.

Treat 2 (60 days): 5,000 IU hCG every 4 days (4 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (4 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen
(10 mg qd). Post-values: LH > 1.4 IU/L, T 63 ng/dL.

Treat 3 (32 days): 5,000 IU hCG qod (6 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG qod (6 inj total) given simultaneously with menotropins 150 IU
qod (6 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen (10 mg bid). Post-values: LH 9.8 IU/L,
T 507 ng/dL.

Restoration of the HPG axis, even in severe cases of hypogonadism, is possible
with combined therapies and careful monitoring of the patient. With continued popularity of
these drugs, long-term androgen deficiency is a health concern for former AAS users. Further
research is needed in this area.



So there is hope for those that have totally abused AAS for "years" or been on HRT and wish to recover.

imo,thats why dr scully has his patients do large amts of hcg for a months time, to regrow the ledgyes cells so the capacity that was once lost, can be regained

[redz]

I understand the theory there but I`m not sold 100% that HCG is needed for recovery in every case for every person. Though I do use it myself and think it is great for aiding in recovery. Good read though the treatment part doesn`t really say much as they include Nolva and Clomid so who is to say that isn`t the cause of recovery?

[Undercover]

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of HCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using HCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) HCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher HCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or HCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or HCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or HCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6) Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone . (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or HCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.
http://www.**********online.com/hcg-unraveled.shtml

this is basically what ive infered from the readings above and the research i got off of this site in swiftos pct thread



imo,thats why dr scully has his patients do large amts of hcg for a months time, to regrow the ledgyes cells so the capacity that was once lost, can be regained

But those studies you posted don't prove what you previously claimed and are, therefore, not valid for this arguement.

[Swifto]

imo, no they are not enough
you will need to run low dose hcg throughout cycle or larger doses prior to end of cycle to regrow lost ledgye cells
without this regrowth, you will not have the full testosterone making capacity that you had prior to starting the cycle

I understand the theory there but I`m not sold 100% that HCG is needed for recovery in every case for every person. Though I do use it myself and think it is great for aiding in recovery. Good read though the treatment part doesn`t really say much as they include Nolva and Clomid so who is to say that isn`t the cause of recovery?

HCG is not ESSENTAIL to restore HPTA function, but it sure a f*ck will help a lot, hence it suggestion by doctors and Endo's around the world when using AAS.

[F-Genetics]

[5x10]

But those studies you posted don't prove what you previously claimed and are, therefore, not valid for this arguement.

thats why i said, in my opinion and inferred
it just seems to make sense, too bad there arent any studies comparing the 2 pcts(one with hcg /serms and one with just serms)
if any has any, please post em, im here to learn

[Far from massive]

When you said is clomid and novadex good enough, I assumed you meant for PCT that's why I did not mention HCG .

I absolutely would/do run HCG on cycle.

[poppz]

How hard is it to find hcg ?

[ScotchGuard02]

Since HCG has become a controlled substance in the US it's gone underground. Look around, you can still find it.