A followup to The Myth of Keepable Gains, Oral only cycles

**5x10** · 05-07-2011, 08:17 PM

Now I know Im going to get some shit for this thread

in reponse to the keepables gains thread, most people on two boards agreed with my stance(not saying its right), that you cannot keep hormonally induced gains
if you would like to argue that point with myself and many other, please reference this thread
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...Keepable-Gains

but if that is the case, why not do oral only cycles?
i do understand they are harsh on the liver, but lets be honest, hormones arent the most forgiving drugs on various other aspects of health(bp,cholesterol, lipids, hpta, hairloss, gyno, etc)
and if your drinking, you probably shouldnt be doing a cycle to begin with

some say, you need to do too much of the drug to get any results. i disagree, 40mgs of dbol a day is the equivalent to 388mgs of test e(280/.72, ester weight of enanthate or cyp is aprox 28%), plenty for a first cycle
and some could argue that mg for mg, dbol is stronger than test

some say, well you can only do it for 6-8 weeks, which doesnt allow for quality gains. first off, your not going to keep them anyways.and in my experience(and what i commonly hear on these boards), most gains slow after week 7-8 anyways.

and something can be said for shorter cycles vs longer cycles in terms of the impact on the body's health and recovery. im not saying steroids are a dangerous drug per se, but we all know they alter the normal chemistry at which your body is designed to run at. and the longer you alter those levels, imo, the more you role the dice with side effects potentially becoming a real issue.
and most would agree that shorter cycles are easier to recover from

then theres the potential for mental dependence on these drugs. i personally know a couple of people that are addicted to them. guys that run test and dont even work out(they arent on trt), guys that wont workout unless they are on, and guys that just wont get off of them. just like any other drug, the more you do them, the higher the odds you can become addicted to them

i can understand why there is an arguement against oral only cycles in one aspect only, young kids wanting to do a cycle, but are too afraid to inject. but lets not kid ourselves, they have access to superdrol at any supplement store around or online, something i think is more harsh than dbol and anavar . whats worse, they have stacks of multiple orals that are non-aromatizing, which according to dr scally, are the worst ones you can take

i can agree with people that say dbol only is nothing compared to dbol + test, but i feel the same about test by itself, compared to test+deca
ive never understood the hate oral only cycles get
please feel free to post your opinions

**MACHINE5150** · 05-07-2011, 08:22 PM

i think that it has to do more with muscle maturation than oral vs inject.. i.e. most oral only cycles are short.. with the exception of anavar .. but most people agree anavar gains ARE keepable.. i think what must be said is that 20 lbs will not stay on you if you only hav it for a month or two.. you need to hold on to it for a few months for your body to adjust to holding it

**takedownII** · 05-07-2011, 08:29 PM

i have hormonally induced gains and i've kept mine......

there does become a limit to what your body can naturally maintain imo though....

**5x10** · 05-07-2011, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by MACHINE5150

i think that it has to do more with muscle maturation than oral vs inject.. i.e. most oral only cycles are short.. with the exception of anavar .. but most people agree anavar gains ARE keepable.. i think what must be said is that 20 lbs will not stay on you if you only hav it for a month or two.. you need to hold on to it for a few months for your body to adjust to holding it

Originally Posted by takedownII

i have hormonally induced gains and i've kept mine......

there does become a limit to what your body can naturally maintain imo though....

in all fairness, arent you guys debating on the topic of keepable gains
and if you are correct, then i would say oral only cycles are a complete waste

i guess this thread would be for someone who agrees that you cannot keep your gains, but is against oral only cycles

**takedownII** · 05-07-2011, 08:38 PM

yeah you're right....the only people that can comment would be ones that agree with your hypotheses....i'll stay out

**5x10** · 05-07-2011, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by takedownII

yeah you're right....the only people that can comment would be ones that agree with your hypotheses....i'll stay out

no man, im not saying that
im not saying that im right on my opinon of keepable gains, im saying that if you agree there are no keepable gains, then why not an oral only?

check my post right above yours, i said that if in fact, you can keep your gains, then i can see why oral only cycles would be a waste

**MACHINE5150** · 05-07-2011, 08:49 PM

i don't think oral only cycles are a horrible idea.. it is a way for someone who doesn't want to do needles to kind of get a taste of the power of AAS.. but i also think you can keep your gains.. with in reason.

**jimmyinkedup** · 05-07-2011, 09:08 PM

I expressed my feelings on keepable gains in the other thread so ill sitck to your point.
But for the sake of this thread lets say i didnt think there were any keepable gains - so why is oral only prob not best choice. Well lets take a look at it. First of all doing a cycle without a test base imo isnt very prudent. Do not belive for a minute an oral like anavar isnt suppressive - it is. That does not eliminate orals ..it just greatly limits them. So lets stick to dball as you have. I think one aspect making this not so prudent is the side effects of constant variation in blood levels using an oral such as d ball. Even spreading out dosage - these ups and down are inevitable. I belive up and down levels of test with eleveated levels of estrogen will lead to more adverse side than stable levels would.
If you want to do short cycles for heath resons by all means do so. If you want to optimize them to a degree do short ester - like test p (imo not suspension for the same reason as I stated above re d ball.) If you are concerned that much re: health - you would obviously side with injectable test over oral dball anyday.
Not being smart but what is the purpose of this thread? To try to advocate an oral only cycle ? Theoretical debate? I mean if you had to do one there are only maybe 2 orals i think would be a good choice and they just arent as good a choice as injectable test for the reasons above. Plus what are you going to do down the road - start stacking multiple orals? I think we all can clearly see why that prob isnt prudent.

**BigandStrong** · 05-07-2011, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by MACHINE5150

i think that it has to do more with muscle maturation than oral vs inject.. i.e. most oral only cycles are short.. with the exception of anavar.. but most people agree anavar gains ARE keepable.. i think what must be said is that 20 lbs will not stay on you if you only hav it for a month or two.. you need to hold on to it for a few months for your body to adjust to holding it

Agreed.

Originally Posted by takedownII

i have hormonally induced gains and i've kept mine......

there does become a limit to what your body can naturally maintain imo though....

Agreed.

**krex** · 05-07-2011, 09:41 PM

First post. Good forum with lots of smarts. I am 57 years old on inject test cyp 250 mg. Definately kept the weight strength and water. Half the fun is busting tail trying to keep it

**nate1235** · 05-07-2011, 10:42 PM

This is a subject I'm highly interested in. I'm looking to start doing test only cycles to drive through a plateau I've been having for a long time. I'd like to know if I would keep at least some of the new muscle and strength, and how long I need to run it in order for my body to become "acclimated" to the new muscle mass.

**THE-DET-OAK** · 05-07-2011, 11:14 PM

all good points so far.

My 2 cents.

I have to go with the homeostasis argument, but I also prefer 12 week cycles for that reason, or blast's if you will. I think I hold more of my gains. even if its temporary, I still think you hold them longer. granted I started AAS before reaching my genetic potential, and there are times I now look back and wish I would have stayed natural. then there are times im like fvck it, TRT now or in 5 years whats the diff. I was almost 30 when i started though. shit there is no way out of the argument hunh?

not to mention test is androgenic and anabolic , i have a hard time thinking of orals that have that advantage. except for methyl tren ( im sure im un-aware or not thinking of some), and hell tren ace kicks in in 2-3 weeks so why take on the liver stress? assuming tren doesnt hurt your liver in inject form lol

**tbjake34** · 05-07-2011, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by MACHINE5150

i think that it has to do more with muscle maturation than oral vs inject.. i.e. most oral only cycles are short.. with the exception of anavar.. but most people agree anavar gains ARE keepable.. i think what must be said is that 20 lbs will not stay on you if you only hav it for a month or two.. you need to hold on to it for a few months for your body to adjust to holding it

I agree with this dude. Theres no way gains can be maintained after 4-5 wks on dbol . If they are very little. But on the other hand tbol can be ran much longer therefore produce more maintainable gains and less sides. Tbol is underrated on this board imo. But test is still king and always will be

**in2shape** · 05-08-2011, 05:59 AM

imo youll only keep what eva your test levels are able to maintain at there natty level ....

so if your test is 300ng/dl then lets say that supports 50kgs of overall muscle but you only have 40kgs of muscle on you , you cycle gain 20kgs id say you keep 10kgs as thats what your natty test can support at its max ...

now on the other hand if your test is, as above 300ng/dl and you have the 50kgs on you already , you gain 20 kgs id say you lose it all as your natty test naturally only supports 50 kgs of muscle @300ng/dl , makes sense ??

jmo