PCT-ish question

[parksy]

Hi guys,

So my last shot of Test E was last thursday (Sept. 8th) from my understanding my PCT should start three weeks beyond that. During cycle I was taking .5mg arimidex per day as I am fairly susceptible to gyno bloat and acne... the arimidex helped with all of those sides. My problem is that I will run out of arimidex tomorrow... I still have a week and a half before PCT starts which I have HCG and nolva for. I have an abundance of nolva so my question is whether I should start with some sort of Nolva dose now or just go without arimidex or nolva until PCT?

Thanks

[Lemonada8]

you know HCG is for on cycle right?
nolva wont do anything for bloat, but will help with gyno.

[The Bear 79]

you know HCG is for on cycle right?
nolva wont do anything for bloat, but will help with gyno.

Y is HCG only 4 on cycle use?

[Lemonada8]

Read either my hcg post or swiftos post on hcg.

[parksy]

Lemonada8 I appreciate the suggestion.. but I have had alot of success personally as well as others I kknow with the use of HCG post cycle to help bring back the boys... if you could provide an answer to my original question tho that would be great...

[The Bear 79]

Read either my hcg post or swiftos post on hcg.

OK, so it makes recovery easier, faster & mor efficient if u use it ON cycle, I understand & agree. But I stil hav 2 disagree with it being strictly 4 on cycle use, I & several of my friends that use gear hav used it several times over (3x myself) 4 PCT with 100% success. I DO believe in ur theory / claim, & I hav every intention of trying ur method on my next cycle, but hcg IS just as useful in PCT, IMO.

[Lemonada8]

HCG increases aromatization along with testosterone , so in PCT its counter productive. then you have to try to cover the additional aromatization with more drugs in the system, and when that becomes the case it turns into a guessing game (if you dont have adequate and frequent blood work) you have to go off of how you are feeling. But since the increased aromatization results in further suppression (due to estrogen) its just a continuation of the negative feed back. And all of the studies that use HCG as a PCT for steroid induced aspermtogensis they use HCG for 3 months. Which the standard nolva/clomid pct is 5 weeks, is a much shorter time which would be favorable following a steroid cycle to try and maximize gains kept.

as for ur original question, you should be fine because you are int eh weeks between ur cycle and pct.

[MR10X]

HCG can be used for both on cycle and PCT.You use clomid and nolvadex while taking HCG and continue them when you stop the HCG.


Q: What’s the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day.

What about the dosing ? I hear to take it easy to prevent desensitizing the testes. With this you hear anywhere from 100 units to 250 units to play it safe. Others say anywhere from 500 to 2500 units at a time…Isn’t that a bit much ?

What about the length of time? I hear two clinics suggest 10 days; others say 3-5 weeks. Where does all this come from and who’s right?

A: Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for two reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to ‘push’ the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen . Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone : 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)

Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

– Michael Scally, M.D., author of Anabolic Steroids : A Question of Muscle

[jimmyinkedup]

Hey MR - Could you please edit your post and remove the link. Links of this kind are not permitted. If you wish feel free to cut and paste the article in your post (making sure to edit out any links it may contain). Thank You

[parksy]

i'm not sure how this thread became merely a debate on whether I should use HCG after cycle or before... but I'd really prefer some answers of whether gyno could form in the next week in a half before my PCT begins as I ran out or arimidex yesterday...

[Lemonada8]

It happens :P
and your original question ive already answered but ill do it again. You should be fine and since you have nolva that will clear up any gyno that forms in the week n a half.

And for the bit on HCG for on cycle vs pct, the point that he is making is that it stimulates the testes to help 'jump start' them with the help of clomid and nolva. This is the whole concept of doing it "On cycle", that you always keep the (gonna use his analogy) car moving while on cycle, so when you need to start it its already going and dont need to begin to push the car after the cycle. When you stay on the HCG while on cycle, you dont have to begin to 'push' the car when you stop the AAS. Then you dont need to use it during your pct because the SERMS will already be taking care of the LH stimulation, and with excess LH in there it leads to more estradiol (due to clomids effect of increased estrogen, and HCG seperately increases aromataization apart from mimicing LH).
And the studies he speaks of that result on desensitization, the participants used way higher doses of HCG (1000iu ED, 5000iu EOD, 2000iu E3d, just to name a few studies. easily findable but the point is that the doses are much higher than the 250iu 2x a week that is reccommended) (HCG has also been shown to maintain spermatogensis when there is FSH suppression (gonna happen while on cycle) and kept it going for a few years (the participants had natural lack of production, not induced like we are talking about here) without the use of FSH) and more frequent which leads to the conclusion that too much HCG at a time can lead to less response of the leydig cells to LH, which is something that isnt wanted. Clomid has the same effect during usage for a extended time frame and nolva actually increases the sensitivity to LH which is why it is ran 15 days longer than the clomid. to help reverse any desentization of the leydig cells to LH that might have occured during clomid and HCG stimulation.
The point of running HCG on cycle vs PCT is that you maintain the spermatogensis ( the main key of having funcitonal testes) while having the exogenous suppression of the AAS. Then when the AAS is out of your system (aka start of PCT) your testes have already been stimulated and never stopped 'being pushed' throughout the cycle that would make recovery much faster and easier after the use of the SERMS.
So sure HCG can be used during PCT, however there are more issues that have to be dealt with and you have to deal with the aspect of actually letting your testes revert back to pre-pubertal stage of nil test production and then start them back up VS not letting them go back to pre-pubertal stage by bypassing the negative feedback loop and stimulating them with HCG. With increased age, who is to say that your testes will actually start back up and produce adequate amounts of testosterone to function in daily life. I would almost claim that the increase of steroid use has lead to more TRT patients (along with test being a 'cure-all' in the older population), and PCT & HCG knowledge has increased ALOT in the last few years which hopefully leads to less people having testosterone produciton problems following AAS usage.

so in a basic sense, why stop and start again (and take the chance of not being able to return to normal and take TRT) when you can stay at a slow pace and not stop at all.
similar to "The tortoise and the hare"