How my first cycle went, and some help required to plan out the second.

[JoelDT]

Hey guys, I'll start by posting my stats. Now I'm going to be honest with them and I am aware of the risks and that I am a little young so I would really appreciate some advice other than wait. I've included some pictures to show I am fairly muscular for 72 kg.

Age: 21 Height: 179 cm Weight: 72 kg Bodyfat: 7 %
I've been training gym for 5 years.

My diet does not need work. I eat under my BMR if I want to cut and above if I want to bulk. It consists of all the right things, sweet potatoes, salmon, chicken breast etc and I don't touch fast food.

Now before everyone tells me how I'm far too light. I am a hardcore ectomorph with a very small frame. I went from 52 kg to 72 kg in 4 years. No matter how much I eat, naturally I can not get my body to store any more muscle. I can put on fat around my gut if I increase my carbs enough but no muscle.

That is what brought me to do my first cycle. Now during my cycle I made the mistake of not using an AI. I left that part of the research up to my friend and will not happen again. I went from 70 kg to 87 kg but just as I was starting pct I got a stomach bug that caused me to need to fast for a week. As you can imagine I lost alot of weight and what I presume was also a lot of water weight due to the lack of AI.

Anyway now I'm 72 kg at 7 % and I am looking to plan ahead for a cycle later this year. It will be my second cycle and I am looking to gain far less water weight and instead gain quality lean muscle. There are a million opinions on what a good second cycle is but I'm looking to here some specific to my situation. Any help is much appreciated. Thankyou.

[gixxerboy1]

what was your cycle?
2nd your not close to 7%bf. quick estimate 13% or so.

[leather daddy]

until u learn HOW TO EAT then no more cycles is going to benifet u. srsly. sure you can eat all u want but without the proper PCF breakdown then you wont gain anything

list us ur diet.

[JoelDT]

Hey mate thanks for the reply. That bodyfat percentage is according to bodyfat calipers. I'm very pale so it might be the light but ok.

That was stupid of me not to mention. First cycle was sus250 for 8 weeks. 0.5 ml eod that whole time and then nolva and clomid for pct.

[JoelDT]

Well right now I'm still cutting. I figure if I have to be small for awhile I might as well by small and cut. My ratio's are 60 - 30 - 10 and I know thats low for fats and carbs. I would never bulk like that.

Meal 1 - 50 g protein shake and 1 piece of wholemeal bread with 1/2 avocado
Meal 2 - 2 eggs and 1 eggwhite on 2 piece of wholemeal toast.
Meal 3 - 20 g of protein mixed in with 3/4th's cup of oats and a banana.
Meal 4 - Post workout protein shake and a wholemeal wrap with 125 g of chicken breast, lettuce, tomato and low fat mayo.
Meal 5 - 125 g piece of salmon with 200 g sweet potatoes.
Meal 6 - Protein shake with 50 g protein before bed and 1/2 cup of low fat greek style yogurt.

[leather daddy]

why bother cutting for? at 72kg man really? You will look like every other skinny dude wearing a shirt. No offense man of course. Thats not a bad diet. But start bulking man. Without steroids .
Eat plenty of protein. And if u have to buy a high calorie mass gainer and take 2-3 a day. I went from 78 to 90 by eating 7 meals a day.

[JoelDT]

No your 100 % right man. That's what I hate, I do look muscular and quite tapered without a shirt on...but put a shirt on me and you wouldn't know I lifted.

So you think screw cutting while I'm small anyway and just naturally bulk? Because the last time I naturally bulked ( The time before the cycle) I gained 7 kg of fat basically. Even though my diet was just as lean, I upped the carbs and yeah it was all fat.

Also what macro's would you suggest if I bulk? High carbs as well as protein?

[leather daddy]

try the paleo diet where its minimal carbs and high protein. I know peopel who bulk off that coz they wana stay lean

You will have to work out ur macros urself man. Go onto google and type in maintenance calorie calculator. Look in the nutrition section here and there is plenty of good guides. Im not sure how as soon as u up the carbs u get fat? im on roughly
385.8g Carbs
97g Fat
332.6g Protein and might need moer to break thru the weight im on atm

[JoelDT]

Ok man thanks very much for the advice. I will replan my diet for bulking. In regards to a second cycle (time on +pct = time off so I can't do one until late this year anyway) but what would you recommend for a lean cycle? I've heard very good things about lean gains from tren and deca .

[leather daddy]

tren and deca ? lol Deca is a 19nor which means it contains no testosterone meaning its going to take away ur manliness meaning u wont get an erection.

For any cycle TEST should be the base. Test and Deca is what im on now and im having a little trouble with a limp dick caused from deca. Its a pretty full on drug same as tren. I would suggest Dbols week 1-4
and some form of Test weeks 1-10 or 1-12. Keep it simple. Most of the Vets on here would recomend staying away from train until u have experience under your belt. Its a very harsh compound in regards to side effects.

[AD]

if you lost all your gains from the first cycle, why would you think it might be different with a second cycle? you may just get exactly the same results and go thru the health risks of another cycle for nothing...

[JoelDT]

Sorry man I need to be clearer. I would always go a test as a base I meant coupled with either deca or tren . I have heard both give good permanent lean gains.

I don't really understand the point of dbol . Its alot of water weight at the start of a cycle to kick start it, but if the weight is temporary what is the benefit? I'm just paranoid since nearly everything I gained was water that it will happen again.

And yes you are right I lost basically all my gains although I am a few kilo's heavier at less bodyfat which is why I decided to ask for help.

[awms]

Sorry chief but your not even close to 7% bf! Im 9% right now and I have more definition than you, and when I do diet down to 6-7% bf I am much much much leaner than that!!! its not a bad thing to be above 7% but dont try to convince your self you are because people in here are not stupid lol

[awms]

second there is no need for steroids ...Im a strength and conditioning coach and I have put 15-20lbs on guys like your self within 4-6 months by changing their diet, having them lift heavy, and pushing them. Come back when you hit 180lbs and than you can start thinking about a cycle.

[JoelDT]

Hey man thanks for the reply even if it was just to warn me. I said I wouldn't lie about my stats and I didn't intentionally. Thats what a 9 site bodyfat caliper test puts me as. I understand the people within the forum are very educated in these matters hence why I came here for advice.

[AD]

i am really worried that you might just yoyo up and back down again. 2kg difference is definitely not worth putting your hpta thru the stress a 2nd time. dont forget your age and the risk of long-term injury.

all drugs have risks and side effects. it is only worth it if you foresee a huge benefit compared to a small risk. in this case, i am afraid that the scale may be tipping in the other direction.

[JoelDT]

And in regards to your statement, is that with them already having trained for 5 years and having already gained 20 kg? I would love to do it naturally. I'm a pt myself. I just can't seem to get past the block and put on any more muscle. I can put on fat no problem.

[JoelDT]

Yeah I see your point. It wasn't what I'd call successful in any other way other than experience.

[awms]

Try this:

2 slices ezekiel bread
4 whole eggs
1/2 cup pecans
1/2 cup blue berries

6-8oz meat
1/2 cup sweet potato
1 cup green veggies

Pre work out 10g BCAA'S
During Workout 10g BCAA'S
Post workout 2 scoops whey/5 g creatine/1 cup pineapple juice/1 whole banana/1/2 cup blue berries

6-8ox meat
1/2 cup rice
Green veggies

6-8oz meat
1/2 cup rice or Sweet potato
Green veggies

Before bed: 1 scoop casein protein/2tsp coco powder/ 1tbs cashew butter/ 1 packet stevia leaf sweetner

follow this for a month and I will bet money on the fact that you gain 4-5 lean lbs.

[JoelDT]

Thanks heaps for your help man. Is the slash as well as?

[awms]

As for training if your looking to put on size drop the weight slightly stay in the 7-12 reps range and use a slow eccentric movement (slow on the way down or the lengthening phase) stay away from machiens, you should be doing lots of dead lifts, ass to the grass squats with proper form!, presses with tempo and volume! leave your ego at home and work the muscle! If you bench 225 drop it to 205, slow down the tempo and do more reps.

[awms]

yes the slash means all in one.

[awms]

use a 3-4 seconds eccentric movement (lengthening phase) and 1 seconds concentric (short phase) for example on a squat you would take 4 seconds to reach the bottom and one seconds up.

[JoelDT]

The training I think I've got covered I do all those things but thankyou I'll try dropping the weight.

The diet - Is that type of bread worth it compared to wholemeal?
- Is the stuff listed with the post workout shake for the insulin spike?
- And the stuff with the before bed shake is that to get some fats into me before I sleep?

[awms]

the BCAA's are to protect your muscle as you workout and also increase GH and test. while you workout, as well as get a better insulin response post workout so that most of the carbs and protein will be stored in your muscle and not as fat. The whey is help repair the muscle and the carbs coming from fruit are to replenish glycogen in your muscle and to spike insulin which is a very anabolic hormone.

Casein protein is slow digesting and so it Fat and together they will digest slowly as you sleep, as well it is a great way to get calories in without having to many carbs before bed.

[JoelDT]

Alright it's all set up to my bodyweight. Thankyou all for your help. It is much appreciated. AWMS hopefully I won't be back in a month for that money you bet

[warren916]

Well right now I'm still cutting. I figure if I have to be small for awhile I might as well by small and cut. My ratio's are 60 - 30 - 10 and I know thats low for fats and carbs. I would never bulk like that.

Meal 1 - 50 g protein shake and 1 piece of wholemeal bread with 1/2 avocado (eggs should be first meal as your body can utilize that protein the best)
Meal 2 - 2 eggs and 1 eggwhite on 2 piece of wholemeal toast. (4 whole eggs and 4 eggwhite on 4 piece of wholemeal toast oatmeal is better, use oliveoil for your eggs as extra clean fat)
Meal 3 - 20 g of protein mixed in with 3/4th's cup of oats and a banana. (40g of protein mixed in with 3/4th's cup of oats and a banana)
Meal 4 - Post workout protein shake and a wholemeal wrap with 125 g of chicken breast, lettuce, tomato and low fat mayo. (thats only 4oz of chicken, you gotta up that to at least 6oz!! with better carbs, potato, rice..)
Meal 5 - 125 g piece of salmon with 200 g sweet potatoes. (up the protein to at least 6oz utilize olive oil for healthy fats)
Meal 6 - Protein shake with 50 g protein before bed and 1/2 cup of low fat greek style yogurt.

Thats your problem...your not going to be able to sustain ANY gains you may make with this new steroid cycle eating like this...

You need to LITERALLY triple that amount of food.

[JoelDT]

Oh I wasn't eating like that on cycle or for a couple of months afterwards. I was on 5000 cals a day. But my weight just dropped and dropped until the amount of food was just making me gain fat.

[xo3et]

Diet is the only thing you need to be looking into right now dude.

[awms]

So your saying your diet is only good during a cycle? well that is your problem right there....if you start eating more I will put money on the fact that you can gain 10-15lbs in the next 4-6 months just from that alone! you have to many shakes and not enouph food!