Steroids in sports?

[AuSSie SpuDD]

I do apologies if there is already a heap of posts on this but it's hard to search thru all info using my phone.

What's ur opinions on steroids in sports ? I've noticed alot of athletes asking for advice.

I personally am not involved in any sports at the moment so I dont have a strong opinion on the topic. I'm a proud Aussie like most Aussies and we pride ourselves as being a great sporting nation. Steroids in Aussie sports is very highly frowned upon. Maybe other countries have different views on the matter?

I respect anyone who Speaks their mind wether their right or wrong so tell me what u think?

[zaggahamma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgopPV3a8wM

give the ball some steroids

boom.. boom.. boom

[evander87]

If it's a banned substance its cheating.

[petkevich]

When 80% of player use it it's just keeping up.

[Focused88]

Why are yall cheating?..

[Turkish Juicer]

When 80% of player use it it's just keeping up.

^^^ Exactly.

When everyone cheats in a math test, then no one can really be blamed by having cheated simply because breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation was performed by EVERYONE.

When everyone cheats in sports through various methods, then it just becomes the new standard for competition.

[zaggahamma]

dumbest thing ive ever seen testing peoples blood

[zaggahamma]

imma fvck dat bitch fer 20 years

lmao

[petkevich]

^^^ Exactly.

When everyone cheats in a math test, then no one can really be blamed by having cheated simply because breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation was performed by EVERYONE.

When everyone cheats in sports through various methods, then it just becomes the new standard for competition.

Ya when I was in school my whole class cheated on the math final. We had to retake it. But when I played football so many people took steroids . It steroids don't make u better. Hard work and dedication do.

[DanB]

^^^ Exactly.

When everyone cheats in a math test, then no one can really be blamed by having cheated simply because breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation was performed by EVERYONE.

When everyone cheats in sports through various methods, then it just becomes the new standard for competition.

I agree

Just legalise it and level the playing field, it is becoming a case of the winners are the ones that can afford the gene doping and latest epo, hgh etc, for endurance sports at least, for power sports, i.e. rugby, football, fighting, lifting, you just need to find a doc to subscribe trt then blast and cruise and you got your ass covered, I seen a very interesting post on another board recently, pm me if you would like a link

[Turkish Juicer]

Ya when I was in school my whole class cheated on the math final. We had to retake it. But when I played football so many people took steroids. It steroids don't make u better. Hard work and dedication do.

Hard work and dedication combined with steroids and other performance enhancing drugs will make a damn fine competitive athlete out of you.

Can anyone argue against this? Please...

[evander87]

Hard work and dedication combined with steroids and other performance enhancing drugs will make a damn fine competitive athlete out of you.

Can anyone argue against this? Please...

Well I can't comment on any other sport but American football. I was just watching Outside the Lines and it was the 3rd part in a series of concussions in football. The league is looking for new ways to reduce the risk of long term head trauma and the first way they are looking at it is reducing the hits. You can be "artificially" bigger faster and strong than everybody else but if the sport becomes two hand touch it's pointless.

[JohnnyVegas]

I think fans might be turned off if they know athletes are using drugs. "Purity of sport" and all the nonsense. They may feel they need to have the appearance of being a clean sport to keep revenue up. But that means demonizing the drugs even though most athletes are using them.

I also agree with TurkishJuicer that this is just now the new standard of competition. And the modern athlete has another skill that needs to be in his tool box...pharmacology.

[NotConvincedYet]

Hard work and dedication combined with steroids and other performance enhancing drugs will make a damn fine competitive athlete out of you.

Can anyone argue against this? Please...

And make money for people at the same time! People pay to see records be broken - that makes for awesome competition. This is the biggest caveat.... Media and government stand on high moral ground with steroid use frowning upon it's use, but what supplement company doesn't want to sponsor a phenomenal athlete, and what government doesn't want the next olympics at their city???

[Lil man]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgopPV3a8wM

give the ball some steroids

boom.. boom.. boom

Love it. Bang bang bang

[Turkish Juicer]

And make money for people at the same time! People pay to see records be broken - that makes for awesome competition. This is the biggest caveat.... Media and government stand on high moral ground with steroid use frowning upon it's use, but what supplement company doesn't want to sponsor a phenomenal athlete, and what government doesn't want the next olympics at their city???

Exactly.

It is the name of the game.

[BigBosanac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgopPV3a8wM

give the ball some steroids

boom.. boom.. boom

[West Coast Winner]

Its unfair to the athletes who like being natural and having fair competition. I'd be down to support a league tho of non-tested sports haha. You would see ssome incredible stuff

[evander87]

Its unfair to the athletes who like being natural and having fair competition. I'd be down to support a league tho of non-tested sports haha. You would see ssome incredible stuff

Google an old SNL skit about the all drug olympics. Pretty funny.

[zaggahamma]

i've seen the theory/proposition of : Is it fair that someone is genetically superior? whats the difference?

you still have to eat/train/etc. when doing aas

[West Coast Winner]

Google an old SNL skit about the all drug olympics. Pretty funny.

Ill check it out, thanks.

[pregan]

I don't see anything wrong with it. It's been a reality of sports for a lot of years.

[JohnnyVegas]

i've seen the theory/proposition of : Is it fair that someone is genetically superior? whats the difference?

you still have to eat/train/etc. when doing aas

I have been interested in that fact for a long time. Should we be simply allowing success in sport to be dictated by the genetic lottery? The guy with larger lung capacity and high hemoglobin automatically gets to win all the races? Natural variation makes sports unfair as much as drug use.

[DanB]

copy and paste by ''realgains'' from another forum, he speaks about cycling but its true for any endurance sport and boxers also known to use these methods, so I dare say they all at, Im still trying to find a post of gene doping that I been searching for

This is how they dope..the truth!

Here it goes....I will take the flames from the kids on the forum but I am going to say it anyway.

First of all.....doping is not going to stop guys. Stop dreaming and being so idealistic and stop "buying" the BS that UCI and WADA are saying about pro cycling getting cleaner. It's only getting slightly cleaner due to paranoia ONLY. As long as millions are to be made in pro sport doping simply cannot stop. It's sad but it's true. Every one of them is dreaming of millions and maybe even getting to buy Lance's house in Barcelona

THIS IS HOW THEY DOPE

How do I know? Trust me ...I know.

HGH, IGF-1 and Actovegin are pretty much the minimum that riders take. Ok...a few might just be on HGH because after all HGH converts in the liver to IGF-1.
NONE of these drugs can be dectected....and no, UCI cannot contract out a test for HGH despite what you may have heard. They can only test IGF-1 which has a super short half life and a high degree of variability in humans. So IGF-1 cannot be reliable.

Yes, there are some riders totally clean in the TDF and more than in years past but there are not that many guys...but soon the paranoia will clear as more riders and doctors start to figure out the controls.

The top GC guys, with the "back up" and money, blood dope with their own frozen packed cells. Packed cells are pure red blood cells...the plasma is centrifuged off. To the packed cells is added a preservative and then they are dipped in liquid nitrogen and place in a deep freeze freezer with at least an inch between each bag. These bags can keep frozen for 10 bloody years!

Now for a one day classic they just come to controls with a 49% crit. They can get there with blood doping or Dynepo use(human identical epo) After morning controls they have about an hour, and sometimes a little more, to blood dope.
Units of their own blood are slammed into them with blood pumps. You can infuse a litre of packed cells in about an hour with no issue. This is at least 3 units of pure red cells. This will boost your crit by at least 5% and sometimes 8-9%! The top riders then line up at the starting line with a 55-59% crit!!!

After the race the extra blood is taken out, the plasma is spun off and the red cells are frozen as above. They end up with a 50% crit. Alternatively they can just bleed the extra blood out of you until you are at 50%.

Remember when "Lance" was so dehydrated after that one stage. Well, the guy was not dehydrated at all....he was caught with a super high crit. His doc's then said he was super dehydrated and sent him off to the motor home pronto. Control re-tested him in an hour after he was "re-hydrated" he he he and low and behold his crit was cool. Gee I wonder what they did ......they gave him a **** load saline IV along with volume expanders like Hespan to dilute his blood and drop his crit.

In grand tours you have to pass morning controls with no more than a 50% crit, just like for any race, so they either take the extra blood out of you after the stage and save for re-infusion after morning controls, or they simply jack you with IV saline and volume expanders like Hespan right before morning controls so your crit is diluted to 49-50%. You still have the same O2 carrying capacity that you had at say 56% ...the blood is just diluted down. This extra fluid also comes in handy in the stage.

If you blood dope for any length of time you must supplement with very tiny doses of epo and only via the IV route. Blood doping shuts down your own red cell production so you will have next to zero retics(immature red cells) in you ...and if control sees this they will know you are blood doping.

The trouble in this tour has come from the new ultra long acting CERA. You need only 1-2 shots per month to keep keep your crit up..and even to build crit.
Some doctors and riders thought this epo would be undetectable because of it's low sustained release....so they used it while blood doping to keep their retics up. Unfortunately if you take just the smallest amount too much(after morning controls) each day then you can get popped. The smart teams, docs, and riders, will not use CERA because it's epo comes from animal protein just like good old fashioned alpha and beta epo. The smart guys will use only Dynepo which is human identical. In micro doses you cannot be caught! If you take too much they can bust you on Dynepo by saying that you are on the stuff because your retic count will go too high too. That is what happened to Chickenman last year. He didn't actually get busted for Dynepo but they knew he was on it because retics were through the roof. He got greedy and probably ran out of frozen packed cells near the end of the race. He was worried that Contra-doper was going to catch him.

Some guys just use Dynepo alone and do not blood dope at all...but they are forced to stay at 50%crit for the tour because if they took enough to raise it higher control will know they because they will see a high retic count. So these guys just hold at 50% with IV micro doses. You can "hold" crit steady with micro doses of alpha or beta epo but it is risky...a little too much and it won't wash out by morning and you'll get popped.

So guys, almost everyone is doped to some degree. However, sprinters don't bother with blood doping. They are happy with a crit of 50% and then wheel sucking. I doubt very much that many sprinters could "keep up" to the pack even wheel sucking unless they are at at least 48% crit.

FYI....almost all men have a natural crit of 40-45%. Most endurance athletes are lowish...like 40-42%. This is due to hemodilution with plasma. The body produces more plasma as it's senses even slight dehydration for the daily grind of of training.

If you jack from 40-44% to 50% you will get about a 10% increase in sustainable power at threshold. So if you normally have a 350 watt threshold at say 70 kilo you will then get a 385 watt threshold power. This is the power you can hold for an hour all out.

This is not the biggist deal though...the biggest deal is the unreal "repeatability" you have. Also a crit of 50% helps in day to day recovery.

Now if you jack to 55% you will get at least a 12% increase in FTP and most guys can manage a 15%!!! So at the very least your 5 minute VO2 max repeat power becomes your one hour sustainable power!!! Think about that one guys. Repeatabilty of hard efforts goes through the roof. At 56-59% some guys get a 20% increase!!! So that is like going from 350 watts at 70 kilo's for an hour to 420 watts!!!

The lower your starting crit the more power increase you get...so guys like Lance and Pantani and Riis and Indurain that had crits of 40-41 got huge gains in power!

A high crit is so powerful that a "super talented' rider has NO CHANCE at all against a talented rider jacked. The best proof of this was seen in 1991 when Lemond was in the best shape of his life but epo free. Super gifted Fignon was also there and unjacked by epo. These riders were BY FAR the most talented riders that tour(sorry Indurain fans )

In 1990 Lemond won the tour even though he was not in top shape(from the horses mouth). Even though Indurain was relegated to a domestique in 90 he was considered no real threat in 91 due to his size(mountains issue). BUT...in 91 he is a freak and had WAY more power than the previous year and he kills Lemond and Fignon. Lemond can only manage a 7th place and Fignon a 6th. ALL the riders that beat them would have had NO CHANCE against these guys unjacked on epo. In fact in 90 Lremond beat them all easily.

Indurain wins...Bugno gets 2nd(well know epo user) and Chiappucci of all people gets 3rd jacked out of his tree.

When a guy gets caught why doesn't he just say this.....

"Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope" Jacque Anquetil...a class act and 5 time TDF winner!

OK...flame away ...but it's the truth.

RG

Last edited by Realgains : 2 Hours Ago at 10:28 PM.

[Sgt. Hartman]

They can definitely test for GH now. I think this is how MLB is testing for it.




Changes in Non-22-Kilodalton (kDa) Isoforms of Growth Hormone (GH) after Administration of 22-kDa Recombinant Human GH in Trained Adult Males1
Jennifer D. Wallace, Ross C. Cuneo, Martin Bidlingmaier, Per Arne Lundberg, Lena Carlsson, Cesar Luiz Boguszewski, John Hay, Massoud Boroujerdi, Antonio Cittadini, Rolf Dall, Thord Rosén and Christian J. Strasburger

Abstract

GH is being used by elite athletes to enhance sporting performance. To examine the hypothesis that exogenous 22-kDa recombinant human GH (rhGH) administration could be detected through suppression of non-22-kDa isoforms of GH, we studied seventeen aerobically trained males (age, 26.9 ± 1.5 yr) randomized to rhGH or placebo treatment (0.15 IU/kg/day for 1 week). Subjects were studied at rest and in response to exercise (cycle-ergometry at 65% of maximal work capacity for 20 min). Serum was assayed for total GH (Pharmacia IRMA and pituitary GH), 22-kDa GH (2 different 2-site monoclonal immunoassays), non-22-kDa GH (22-kDa GH-exclusion assay), 20-kDa GH, and immunofunctional GH. In the study, 3 h after the last dose of rhGH, total and 22-kDa GH concentrations were elevated, reflecting exogenous 22-kDa GH. Non-22-kDa and 20-kDa GH levels were suppressed. Regression of non-22-kDa or 20-kDa GH against total or 22-kDa GH produced clear separation of treatment groups. In identical exercise studies repeated between 24 and 96 h after cessation of treatment, the magnitude of the responses of all GH isoforms was suppressed (P < 0.01), but the relative proportions were similar to those before treatment. We conclude: 1) supraphysiological doses of rhGH in trained adult males suppressed exercise-stimulated endogenous circulating isoforms of GH for up to 4 days; 2) the clearest separation of treatment groups required the simultaneous presence of high exogenous 22-kDa GH and suppressed 20-kDa or non-22-kDa GH concentrations; and 3) these methods may prove useful in detecting rhGH abuse in athletes.

[DanB]

^^^^^

Sgt you heard anything new about that urine test they trying to introduce for the olympics, I have a look now actually

And does it say anything in rest of study about cost of that test being feasbile?

EDIT

nevermind that test I mentioned died due to costs

[DanB]

.....

[DanB]

They can definitely test for GH now. I think this is how MLB is testing for it.




Changes in Non-22-Kilodalton (kDa) Isoforms of Growth Hormone (GH) after Administration of 22-kDa Recombinant Human GH in Trained Adult Males1
Jennifer D. Wallace, Ross C. Cuneo, Martin Bidlingmaier, Per Arne Lundberg, Lena Carlsson, Cesar Luiz Boguszewski, John Hay, Massoud Boroujerdi, Antonio Cittadini, Rolf Dall, Thord Rosén and Christian J. Strasburger

Abstract

GH is being used by elite athletes to enhance sporting performance. To examine the hypothesis that exogenous 22-kDa recombinant human GH (rhGH) administration could be detected through suppression of non-22-kDa isoforms of GH, we studied seventeen aerobically trained males (age, 26.9 ± 1.5 yr) randomized to rhGH or placebo treatment (0.15 IU/kg/day for 1 week). Subjects were studied at rest and in response to exercise (cycle-ergometry at 65% of maximal work capacity for 20 min). Serum was assayed for total GH (Pharmacia IRMA and pituitary GH), 22-kDa GH (2 different 2-site monoclonal immunoassays), non-22-kDa GH (22-kDa GH-exclusion assay), 20-kDa GH, and immunofunctional GH. In the study, 3 h after the last dose of rhGH, total and 22-kDa GH concentrations were elevated, reflecting exogenous 22-kDa GH. Non-22-kDa and 20-kDa GH levels were suppressed. Regression of non-22-kDa or 20-kDa GH against total or 22-kDa GH produced clear separation of treatment groups. In identical exercise studies repeated between 24 and 96 h after cessation of treatment, the magnitude of the responses of all GH isoforms was suppressed (P < 0.01), but the relative proportions were similar to those before treatment. We conclude: 1) supraphysiological doses of rhGH in trained adult males suppressed exercise-stimulated endogenous circulating isoforms of GH for up to 4 days; 2) the clearest separation of treatment groups required the simultaneous presence of high exogenous 22-kDa GH and suppressed 20-kDa or non-22-kDa GH concentrations; and 3) these methods may prove useful in detecting rhGH abuse in athletes.

dosnt say how but looks like they already got somebody, mabey this method?

http://www.nbcolympics.com/news-blog...two-years.html

[Sgt. Hartman]

I just looked it up and that's how mlb and others have been testing for GH starting at the 04 Olympics. I've read where everybody says how ridiculously expensive that test is but I haven't seen a dollar figure.

[DanB]

I just looked it up and that's how mlb and others have been testing for GH starting at the 04 Olympics. I've read where everybody says how ridiculously expensive that test is but I haven't seen a dollar figure.

Yeah I found this then edited it when I re-read your abstract, as I thought it was outdated

http://news.scien***ag.org/sciencein...ing-tests.html

The new test for HGH doping is expected to be an improvement over the current version, which successfully nabbed U.K. rugby player Terry Brown in 2010, but is unable to detect doping that occurred more than a few days before testing. The current test, which was implemented in 2004, compares the ratio between two different sizes, or isotopes, of the HGH molecule in the blood. Synthetic doping agents use the larger molecule, while the body normally makes both the larger and the smaller isotopes. But a newer test detects levels of two other blood proteins, IGF-1 and P3NP, whose levels increase with HGH administration and are detectable for longer, expanding the surveillance window. Cowan said this test is "well on its way, I would lay money on that being ready for 2012."

I posted this a few months ago and seems to coincide with both our posts, a new test which uses a combination of both methods to detect for 21 days but cant find any real data on it only articles which could be scare tactics?

http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/...ntists-experts

LONDON -- A new test that can detect the use of human growth hormone for up to 21 days has been endorsed by international anti-doping officials, moving a step closer to a potential breakthrough against doping at next year's London Olympics.

U.S. Anti-Doping Agency CEO Travis Tygart told The Associated Press on Monday the "biomarker" test for HGH won strong consensus among doping scientists and experts from around the world who attended a London symposium on detecting growth factors.

The test, which still needs final validation by the World Anti-Doping Agency, widely extends the detection window from the current "isoform" test, which can only identify HGH use going back 12 to 72 hours.

The new test, which also uses blood samples, can go back "anywhere from 10 days to 21 days" and could be a significant deterrent against one of the most potent performance-enhancers in sports, Tygart said.

"This is an important step," he said. "We're hopeful it's going to be approved by WADA soon."

In addition to its possible use at the Olympics or in international sports, the test would also be valid for the NFL, whose players' union has yet to agree to introduction of any HGH testing.

The biomarker test was the main focus of a closed-door conference over the weekend that was jointly organized by USADA and UK Anti-Doping.

"The consensus ... is that this test is a well-validated, scientifically reliable test which extends the window of detection and would also be important to implement," Tygart told the AP following a separate anti-doping and ethics symposium Monday in London.

He said the biomarker test had been supported by more than 30 peer-reviewed scientific articles.

The isoform test, first used in 2004, is designed to detect the presence of synthetic HGH in the body. By contrast, the biomarker test scans for chemicals produced by the body after HGH use, detecting "the effects of using human growth hormone," Tygart said.

The biomarker test could be used alone or together with the isoform test.

"The two tests are complementary," Tygart said.

WADA has to go through its own scientific validation process before the new test can go into effect.

"I would hope it's imminent," Tygart said. "Clean athletes, once they're satisfied that it's scientifically validated and should be used, they want it out there immediately."

Olivier Niggli, legal director of WADA, said the agency would assess the new test fully before giving it the go-ahead.

"Scientists are always very optimistic," he told the AP. "We'll see where exactly where we are. We'll see whether every aspect is covered. Before anything comes into place, we want to make sure we have the answers to the questions we'll get when we go try (the test) for the first time.

"It's very promising. There's still a bit of work to be done but we're getting there."

Niggli was coy about whether the new test would be in place at London's 2012 Games, which start in July.

"If it would be, I wouldn't tell you," he said. "We want to keep the element of surprise."

While HGH testing has taken place at the Olympics since 2004, no positive tests for the hormone have ever been recorded at the Games. Outside of the Olympics, there have been eight positive tests for HGH in seven sports detected at seven different labs.

In the most recent case, two-time Olympic cross-country skiing champion Andrus Veerpalu of Estonia was banned for three years by the sport's governing body in August. The federation said he tested positive for HGH in Estonia in January while preparing for the world championships.

Tygart and Niggli both defended the isoform test against questions raised by the NFL Players Association. The NFL would be the first major professional sports league to implement HGH testing.

Blood testing for HGH was part of the collective bargaining deal struck between the league and players this summer -- but only if the union agreed to the methods. The union has asked for more information about the process and questioned the safety and reliability of the test.

"There is complete consensus that it's a good test, is scientifically reliable, has been well validated and should be used by any entity, professional or Olympic, that wants to protect clean athletes," Tygart said.

Niggli added: "This is a test which was done over many, many years. We've got a lot of studies behind it. We're very comfortable to defend it."


Copyright 2011 by The Associated Press

[DanB]

couple of studys from few years ago that say biomarkers may do this or that but no trials that i can find

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16303837

this is another method which I dont fully understand, seems to work on similar lines and may be effective?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21455479

If Im reading it all right, I might not be lol, its a combination of all this in some form or another that allows for 10-21 day detection ( if the test they claim is true and not scare tactics)

[DanB]

P3PN lingers for a couple weeks even after last dose of the exogenous gh which released IGF and causes the cell growth then the P3PN can be detected as it is left by collegen which supports the cell growth caused by the IGF (am I correct in thinking that?), but it reckons there is 30 articles on the biomarkers (the orginal method for the urine test, funded by US doping agency then it was patented but subsequently ditched?), I cant seem to find anywhere that number and nothing in last couple years? But Im guessing they combining both of these tests in some way?