The ultimate LIVER thread and info on orals and ORAL TOXICITY!!

[JJ14]

OK so, what about injectables, how liver toxic are they?

What about alcohol and injectables. Used to work out with this german guy, he swore alcohol inhibits lactic acid production and drank a beer before and after workout. I work on breweries and homebrew, and heavily hopped beers stimulate bile production and are known to cleanse kidneys and liver and the unpasteurized craft beer is super bioactive like yougurt. Is the kraut on to something?

[Atomini]

OK so, what about injectables, how liver toxic are they?

What about alcohol and injectables. Used to work out with this german guy, he swore alcohol inhibits lactic acid production and drank a beer before and after workout. I work on breweries and homebrew, and heavily hopped beers stimulate bile production and are known to cleanse kidneys and liver and the unpasteurized craft beer is super bioactive like yougurt. Is the kraut on to something?

Injectables are barely liver toxic at all, with the exception of Winstrol . This is because injectable Winstrol is the exact same thing as oral Winstrol. This is why you're able to drink winny, because it's just the oral version as an injectable pretty much.

As per your beer question, I can't really say anything about your German buddy's claims that it inhibits lactic acid production. I'll have to look into that, but upon first glance, I highly doubt it. I also have never heard of this thing you mention about how beer stimulates bile production, this also sounds farfetched to me. Beer contains alcohol... alcohol isn't good for the liver, we all know this. It's basic knowledge, so i'm not going to go into an avid description of what happens in your liver when you consume alcoholic beverages. I wouldn't advise anyone to drink beer as a liver protectant, that just sounds absurd. Sounds like something out of bizarro world where everything is backwards. I think your German friend was simply believing in an old folk tale. Sounds like something that originated back in the 1960s and 1970s when nobody knew a thing about bodybuilding - they just did whatever they thought worked, and came up with crazy and absurd theories. This sounds like one of them.

Hell, Arnold would drink Jim Beam whiskey before his competitions, here's a video of him doing it right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl5Az1s2U78

I can't say that's a good thing to do. It all sounds like old folk tale to me.

[JJ14]

Comments on Hops in Beer

Extracted from The Natural Testosterone Plan by Stephen Harrod Buhner

Hops is best known for its use in beer. The majority of physicians and men overlook its potent chemicals and do not realize that beer itself can significantly alter the male androgen levels. German beer makers noticed long ago that the young women who picked hops in the fields commonly experienced early menstrual periods. Eventually, researchers discovered the reason – hops is perhaps one of the most powerfully estrogenic plants on Earth. Just 100 grams of hops (about 3.5 ounces) contains anywhere from thirty thousand to three hundred thousand IUs of estrogen, depending on the type of hops. Most of it is the very potent estrogen estradiol. Estradiol, as it is taken into the male body, causes a direct lowering of testosterone levels in the testes and an increase in SHBG levels, which then binds up even more free testosterone in the bloodstream. The estradiol in hops has also been found to directly interfere with the ability of the testes Leydig cells to produce testosterone. The presence of this highly estrogenic substance in beer is not an accident.

Prior to the German Beer Purity Act of 1516, beer almost never contained hops. In fact, more than one hundred different plants were used in brewing beer for at least ten thousand years prior to the introduction of hops in the middle ages. For the last thousand years of that period, the most dominant form of “beer” was called gruit, which contained a mixture of yarrow, bog myrtle, and marsh rosemary. These herbs, especially in beer, are s*xually and mentally stimulating. (It is rare to become sleepy when drinking un-hopped beers.) The Catholic Church had a monopoly on the production of gruit, but competing merchants and the Protestants worked together to break their monopoly and force the removal of all sexually stimulating herbs from beer. They replaced them with an herb that puts the drinker to sleep and dulls s*xual drive in the male. The legislative arguments of the day all hinged on the issue of the stimulating effects of other herbs that were used in beer. A pilsner, for example, was originally a henbane beer (pilsen means “henbane”), which is an incredibly strong, psych*active beer, used earlier in history by German berserkers before battle. The German Beer Purity Act was, in effect, the first d*ug control law ever enacted.

Beer, so highly touted as s*xy in television commercials, in actuality can powerfully inhibit s*xual strength in men. There is a well known condition in England – Brewer’s Droop – that occurs from middle-aged brewers’ extensive handling of hops plants. The plant chemistries readily transmit through the men’s skin just as they did in the young women in the fields. Very few physicians have looked at any correlation between beer drinking and androgen levels or erectile dysfunction problems in their patients. (How many men on V**gra are heavy beer drinkers?) However, the physician Eugene Shippen in The Testosterone Syndrome comments that one of his patients undergoing pharmaceutical testosterone replacement therapy, showed no response to the testosterone until he reduced his beer intake to one or two beers a night from six to seven. Hops is extremely potent and its consumption should be limited if not completely excluded during all androgen replacement therapy. These effects can be exacerbated if the beers you buy also contain licorice (see Licorice section at beginning of chapter), a fact that will not be noted the beer label.


It is possible to buy beer that does not interfere with androgen levels, although it can be somewhat hard to find. Some microbreweries and brew pubs are now making traditional gruits. Check the brew pubs in your town. However, the best source is Bruce Williams, a Scottish Brewer who is bringing back the traditional ales of Europe and especially Scotland (i.e., pre-hopped European beers). He has five in production and they can often be found in larger American cities at any store that carries a wide selection of unusual beers. The heather ale is excellent but perhaps more useful would be the traditional pine ale made from the Scotch pine, Pinus sylvestris, whose pollen contains testosterone.


It is also best to buy beers that are bottle-conditioned. Bottle-conditioned beers are carbonated in the bottle and as such contain live yeasts. These yeasts (most commonly Saccharomyces cerevisiae) are highly nutritive. They are extremely high in protein, glucose tolerance factor, and B vitamins – especially niacin and B1. Glucose tolerance factor, because it helps regulate blood sugar levels, can help with many of the problems associated with diabetes. Brewer’s yeast contains the highest levels of glucose tolerance factor of any food. It also has been found to reduce serum cholesterol and triglyceride levels and newer research has indicated that S. cerevisiae yeasts may have direct enhancement impacts on androgen activity in the body.

[JJ14]

Had to edit the word s*x haha, and the link for the whole article below, but the high alpha acid hop bitterness is the source of the health effect, the article is on bittering and bile production, and pancreatic function.

ht*p://***.herbs2000.com/h_menu/bitter_princ.htm


Bitters enhance bile flow
Bile juice is secreted by the liver. It is also considered as the excretion of liver. The liver contains extremely dynamic flow of juices. If pictured, each cell can be seen as being in a stream of a mixed nutrient-rich portal blood from the gut and oxygen-rich arterial blood from the general circulation. These fluids disseminate through the cell, and are subjected to heavy dispensation that is a part of the liver function. The metabolic products that are born out of this activity move from the liver cell into the outgoing blood flow. Some of the most important, however, are channeled into a separate exit that drains into the biliary system. The liver thus self-cleanses by its own mechanism.

This is the organ which suffers from all the harmful effects of binge eating, defective digestion or ill health by being overloaded with toxins or the deposition of waste material. The fluids which pass through the liver cells may not be enough to wash out the toxins. This poses a threat to the liver making it prone to liver pathology or more common range of functional disorders. An improved flow of bile juice will definitely not allow such waste material to accumulate. Bitters play this role very effectively. With the consumption of toxic materials increasing, this is certainly one of the advantages.

The bitters have been proven to be effective in curing all allergic, metabolic and immunological conditions where the diagnosis points to the digestion. The liver exerts an influence over the immunological system as well. Even in case of herbal therapies for migraines, hepatic remedies are suggested, most of which use the bitter.

The use of bitters leads to a greater production of biliary elements and dilutes the bile as well by increasing the bicarbonate content. In case of gallstone formation or gall-bladder disease, that is formed by the over deposition of bile, bitters are known to work wonders. Along with lemon juice which dilutes the bile as well, bitters are also an effective and accepted treatment of these diseases.

[Atomini]

Hmm extremely interesting. I didn't know very much about this.

I think that perhaps de-alcoholized beer could be a benefit in terms of these factors. However, i'm still concerned about the amount of carbohydrates and calories in it, lol. I still wouldn't drink beers for PCT though, hah.

[Atomini]

Also, perhaps if these individual components that provide benefits to the human body could be extracted from beer, and sold individually... that might be a very good idea.

[JJ14]

A pro-biotic supplement from the bottom of the tanks would be recycling what is now a waste product for the breweries. Its loaded with b-vitamins as well. The hops bitterness requires them to be boiled for an hour which forms the alpha-acids, and the estrogen makes them less than ideal, so one of the other bittering agents in that article could be included, might have merit and the recycling beers a great marketing gimmick, lol.

Of course, that being said, " liver tonic gruit beer with testosterone pine trees" seems like more fun to make and consume hahah

[Atomini]

Bump.

[mockery]

Trying to find this in vancouver, non of the pro's around hear of heard about it? and a few online suppliers say they are sold out ...

[Atomini]

Amazon.com sells the raw powders in bulk. A LOT of people haven't heard about it because this is something that has been recently discovered and used. Mind you, it has been studied since the 1990s though.

[mockery]

Amazon.com sells the raw powders in bulk. A LOT of people haven't heard about it because this is something that has been recently discovered and used. Mind you, it has been studied since the 1990s though.

well its the same with a lot of things, IE: myostain protein discovered in the 1990's yet people don't understand it or know of it and still insist on running long cycles and then making logs about not gaining the final 3-4 weeks.

On amazon do i do a search for the full medical name?

[Atomini]

Just typein UDCA or TUDCA, it should come up!

[thelib]

What about kidney help?

Also, would milk thistle suffice in a 6 week tbol cycle? Its basically less toxic then hdrol and I don't damage my liver in other ways.

[Atomini]

What about kidney help?

Also, would milk thistle suffice in a 6 week tbol cycle? Its basically less toxic then hdrol and I don't damage my liver in other ways.

Kidney help is a different topic I would have to get into. You shouldn't have to worry about your kidneys too much, most AAS do not have detrimental effects on kidneys. Its the excessive protein consumption and potential inadequate water intake you should be worried about there.

Milk thistle is garbage, you might as well flush your money down the toilet. Read through my whole post, there is an explanation as to why milk thistle is absolute crap. You're better off with Liv 52 or more preferrably UDCA/TUDCA.

[songdog]

Good job bro

[600@50]

So what would a daily dose of TUDCA or UDCA be while on an oral? And possibly for just a one month liver cleanse?

[Atomini]

So what would a daily dose of TUDCA or UDCA be while on an oral? And possibly for just a one month liver cleanse?

The answers to this already exist in this thread.

You should take 500mg PER DAY for liver maintenance while on cycle. 1,000mg or more per day for liver repair if you have done lots of damage from heavy oral use and/or you have high liver enzyme readings from a blood test, etc. The medical studies done on UDCA/TUDCA on people with liver disorders were using 1,500 - 2,000mg per day for repair purposes.

[Atomini]

Bump.

[Atomini]

Bump.

[Razor]

sticky please

[slimshady01]

Getting rdy to start Tbol Monday , will be running tudca.

[Lunk1]

Honestly hoping I didn't cause any damage to liver during several years of running every prohormone that hit the market back in the day! Boy did I put alot of stock in that damn milk thistle. Where was this info 6 or 7 years ago? Thank you for all your hard work helping keep us all safe!

[slimshady01]

Starting my cycle , can I take tudca with my Tbol ? Or should I do at different times?

[Atomini]

It doesn't really matter. You can take it with your tbol or several hours before or after.

[slimshady01]

It doesn't really matter. You can take it with your tbol or several hours before or after.

Ok wasn't sure if it did anything to its effectiveness taking together.

[Brohim]

Is this stuff good?

http://www.*************************...ver-juice.html

It's called liver juice and said to be 8x more bioavailable than regular milk thistle.

Amazon also has some bulk TUDCA powder from build your own blend...

[Atomini]

Is this stuff good?

http://www.*************************...ver-juice.html

It's called liver juice and said to be 8x more bioavailable than regular milk thistle.

I've answered this in the main post and throughout the thread. It is good, but it is nothing compared to the protective and repairative effects of UDCA/TUDCA. It would be a great adjunct to TUDCA.

[warmouth]

Why in the world is this not a sticky?

[Razor]

Do you know where UDCA comes from?

It isn't pretty.
I'll just limit my use of orals to Anavar and stick to NAC (which replenished glutathione stores in the liver).

So would u run NAC or Tudca Atomi?

[Razor]

bump

[Atomini]

If I had to choose only one of the two, i'd go with TUDCA. NAC has been shown to be a very good liver protectant as well, but i'd run TUDCA if I had to choose only one. Ideally, why not run both though for the added protection.

[Razor]

All tudca is out of stock..im going to have to go with NAC

[Razor]

All tudca is out of stock..im going to have to go with NAC

NM found the tudaca so running both!!

[ickythump]

Thank you for the valuable information, good to have this, my buddy wanted to use a potent designer oral steroid , which is very toxic, he friend said milk thistle was prefect and I'm stupid, but he's wrong obv....luckily I'm not afraid of needles lol

[Atomini]

Thank you for the valuable information, good to have this, my buddy wanted to use a potent designer oral steroid, which is very toxic, he friend said milk thistle was prefect and I'm stupid, but he's wrong obv....luckily I'm not afraid of needles lol

Gotta be careful of those designer steroids out there. VERY powerful stuff, but also highly damaging to the liver. There's a reason why those never became conventional anabolic steroids.

[Brohim]

NM found the tudaca so running both!!

nice. You running the powder off Amazon?

[Razor]

nice. You running the powder off Amazon?

Nope

[Razor]

Why in the world is this not a sticky?

Motion to move for a sticky

[Atomini]

Sticky would be good... we really don't have ANY other threads that discuss liver protection on here. I did a lot of searching through this forum before I made this thread a few months back.

[ickythump]

nice. You running the powder off Amazon?

I was wondering, i can't find nutra whatever's tudca, and i don't know about this "build your own supplement" brand of tudca on Amazon, but does anyone know if this is a good product?? Guess i don't trust Amazon is all...thanks