20 Year Old Looking for Advice

[Yondy]

Hey guys, I know i'm gonna be receiving a lot of heat but I just need some answers. I am not trying to start any heated discussion, simply guidance and reasoning behind my questions. If my diet were in check and have been working out for at least a year, why shouldn't I start a cycle of a mild substance to give a boost in my gains? I am looking to gain mass and am thinking about a mild substance such as anavar or turanabol. Because they are mild, have a relatively low toxicity and do not pose too much of a threat regarding being shut down, wouldn't a cautious user be able to benefit from this regardless of age? Most of the arguments against the use of gear before the age of 25 seem to hold true if the gear is intense and have a sure bet to mess up your system at a young age (shut down natty test, mess up liver, blood etc.), but wouldn't mild substances be an exception?

[AdrenalineJunkie]

The 25 year standars is because your body is naturally producing everything it needs efficiently and effectively. This is why these are the best years to develop good work out habits and use your body's natural potential to its max. In fact, when steroids were first discovered and administered to humans, they were often referred to as "the fountain of youth" because they were given to the elderly and helped restore youth and body functions. What Im getting at is simple: if it aint broke, dont fix it. Build what you can naturally and in a few years if you want a boost, consider it then. No sense stopping your natural potential because your impatient. The quick and easy shortcuts in the weight room are never the way to go.

[t-dogg]

At your age growing shouldnt be a issue. Put your money into food, diet, and training. IT WILL pay off trust me. Its like building a house if you have a great foundation this will be great, if not the house is sure to fall.

[Judah]

Hey guys, I know i'm gonna be receiving a lot of heat but I just need some answers. I am not trying to start any heated discussion, simply guidance and reasoning behind my questions. If my diet were in check and have been working out for at least a year, why shouldn't I start a cycle of a mild substance to give a boost in my gains? I am looking to gain mass and am thinking about a mild substance such as anavar or turanabol. Because they are mild, have a relatively low toxicity and do not pose too much of a threat regarding being shut down, wouldn't a cautious user be able to benefit from this regardless of age? Most of the arguments against the use of gear before the age of 25 seem to hold true if the gear is intense and have a sure bet to mess up your system at a young age (shut down natty test, mess up liver, blood etc.), but wouldn't mild substances be an exception?

Try to see it this way. Look at your body as a number between 1 and 100, 100 being achieving everything your body is capable of. If you fu-ck with your endocrine system before it has stabilized, no matter how much you train eat and juice you might only get to, say, 70% of what you could have. You can literally stunt your growth. Why do that, because you can't wait 6 years. Is it worth the risk to you?

[songdog]

Read the young and steroids thread.That will tell you why.And quit being lazy WORK for wat you want!

[BlueWaffle21]

Too young mang!!!

[stpete]

Beat me to it songdog but i have the link to help him out.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...s#.UBmoB02PVjY

[Shadowmaker]

i dont agree with the masses in here on the age thing... me and lots of guys i know, start lifting very young age and by the time they are 20, they already have 5-7 years of experience and have done all kinds of supps and diets and training programmes...
yeah, of course - you have lots of hormones in your body at the age of 20, but the natural max is a natural max.

the reason why you shoudnt juice now thou is because of your lack of experience... 1 year of lifting... in here, before juicing we have an old russian saying which sounds like "gdje baza?" or in english "wheres the foundation?"...
in here we mostly have a 3-5 year rule of intense training - strong compound movements, less reps, more weight, perfect diet and no monthly breaks in between.
So ill stay by my beliefs and say that - if you havent been doin your stuff hardcore for at least 3-5 years, you dont need juice, and i would say that to every 16 year old as well to a 50 year old.

the lifestyle change(diet, training, sleep) will grow you much faster than juice would do in the first few years...
beginners in their first 2 years make MORE progress than anyone on juice does so spending your money and health on results you can get for free is kinda un-cool deal imo.

[Times Roman]

i dont agree with the masses in here on the age thing... me and lots of guys i know, start lifting very young age and by the time they are 20, they already have 5-7 years of experience and have done all kinds of supps and diets and training programmes...
yeah, of course - you have lots of hormones in your body at the age of 20, but the natural max is a natural max.
the reason why you shoudnt juice now thou is because of your lack of experience... 1 year of lifting... in here, before juicing we have an old russian saying which sounds like "gdje baza?" or in english "wheres the foundation?"...
in here we mostly have a 3-5 year rule of intense training - strong compound movements, less reps, more weight, perfect diet and no monthly breaks in between.
So ill stay by my beliefs and say that - if you havent been doin your stuff hardcore for at least 3-5 years, you dont need juice, and i would say that to every 16 year old as well to a 50 year old.

the lifestyle change(diet, training, sleep) will grow you much faster than juice would do in the first few years...
beginners in their first 2 years make MORE progress than anyone on juice does so spending your money and health on results you can get for free is kinda un-cool deal imo.

We can agree to disagree. But I checked your profile, and no surprise, you are 22. Not trying to be disrespectful, but you are still at that rebellious age where all you know is you want what you want, regardless of the available information out there.

The issue has NEVER been whether there has been enough gym time or not. It's whether or not your hormonal system has finished development, and all the gym time in the world won't fix that.

[MuscleInk]

We can agree to disagree. But I checked your profile, and no surprise, you are 22. Not trying to be disrespectful, but you are still at that rebellious age where all you know is you want what you want, regardless of the available information out there.

The issue has NEVER been whether there has been enough gym time or not. It's whether or not your hormonal system has finished development, and all the gym time in the world won't fix that.

^^^^Nailed it Roman

[Judah]

i dont agree with the masses in here on the age thing... me and lots of guys i know, start lifting very young age and by the time they are 20, they already have 5-7 years of experience and have done all kinds of supps and diets and training programmes...
yeah, of course - you have lots of hormones in your body at the age of 20, but the natural max is a natural max.

the reason why you shoudnt juice now thou is because of your lack of experience... 1 year of lifting... in here, before juicing we have an old russian saying which sounds like "gdje baza?" or in english "wheres the foundation?"...
in here we mostly have a 3-5 year rule of intense training - strong compound movements, less reps, more weight, perfect diet and no monthly breaks in between.
So ill stay by my beliefs and say that - if you havent been doin your stuff hardcore for at least 3-5 years, you dont need juice, and i would say that to every 16 year old as well to a 50 year old.

the lifestyle change(diet, training, sleep) will grow you much faster than juice would do in the first few years...
beginners in their first 2 years make MORE progress than anyone on juice does so spending your money and health on results you can get for free is kinda un-cool deal imo.

Ummmm, you do realize even just lifting at too early of an age can stunt your growth and change certain positive natural development, let alone doing gear to early?

[50%Natural]

Won't lie, I hit my first real light cycle at 20. I was just like you looking for a lil mild boost to supplement my efforts even though I can say in retrospect as a dietary expert now, my diet sucked. The difference then though between us, I had been training pretty damn hard for 4 years. Develop a serious work ethic first. I earned my stripes before I hit the gear. It was also a dangerous road. The main reason I'd advise against it having been there is because I think you're probably too immature at 20 to be able to handle the psychological addiction you get to the stuff. All the bros I know that hit it that early found themselves abusers a couple years later. You're still figuring it all out at 20 and you'll develop an ego and you'll need things to feed that ego more and more. Now, I'm 30. I haven't hit a cycle in over 7 years but if I were to hit one, I'm comfortable in my own skin and I could handle the ups and downs-no prob. I couldn't handle it at 20. What ever you decide, make sure you stay humble. Just real talk from a dude who's been there and lived a decade since. Some of my boys didn't make it through intact.

[Judah]

Won't lie, I hit my first real light cycle at 20. I was just like you looking for a lil mild boost to supplement my efforts even though I can say in retrospect as a dietary expert now, my diet sucked. The difference then though between us, I had been training pretty damn hard for 4 years. Develop a serious work ethic first. I earned my stripes before I hit the gear. It was also a dangerous road. The main reason I'd advise against it having been there is because I think you're probably too immature at 20 to be able to handle the psychological addiction you get to the stuff. All the bros I know that hit it that early found themselves abusers a couple years later. You're still figuring it all out at 20 and you'll develop an ego and you'll need things to feed that ego more and more. Now, I'm 30. I haven't hit a cycle in over 7 years but if I were to hit one, I'm comfortable in my own skin and I could handle the ups and downs-no prob. I couldn't handle it at 20. What ever you decide, make sure you stay humble. Just real talk from a dude who's been there and lived a decade since. Some of my boys didn't make it through intact.

Wow, great advice. The higher risk of abusing gear because of young age/immaturity/not knowing yourself 100%... might be even more of a reason then the pure physical one. Such great advice.

[Yondy]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I read every single one and have taken all of your thoughts in my mind. I appreciate that the responses were logical and well thought out instead of simple negative retorts.

[Shadowmaker]

and no surprise, you are 22

first of all - because im 22, im the one who should give advice to younger ppl if i have some experience... i have been reading in here and its all the same all the time : "you're too young, look at me - im 50, im cycling, wait 15 years more..." it does not help to anyone...

second thing is something i have already said in one topic and it sounds like "look at me, life is hard for me" but its not ment to be like that, its for ppl like you to understand.
so ill give a brief look at what i said once : the knowledzge of pharmacy changes all over the world. in here you mostly have ppl from US and Canada. you ppl have stuff that i have never heard about and no one has, except for those from US... for example - PCT... in eastern european region no one does that... we dont get lower libido and our gyno goes away in 2 weeks when off-cycle.
we usually start dbol as first cycle(cause we dont have money for stuff you guys use, cause we have the same prices on food and housing as in US, but our monthly wages are the amount of money you ppl give to your kids for school lunch) at the age of 14, because the best bodybuilders in here are huge at 18...
sadly, this forum doesnt allow me to post any links, but the average 18yr old bodybuilder in eastern europe are twice the size the average long-term juicer in here(with exceptions ofc).

so, the age thing is a problem only here, so what im doin - im giving advice from some different perspective and it is actually very sad that if you see this forum overall - there is no real variety of opinion and if a young dude comes here wanting to be next champ for junior category, he just gets sent home by the "old guys".

22 is 1 year too old to compete in juniors... have you seen our juniors? theres a guy in Baltic States called Mārtiņš Skujenieks(copy that into google picture search) and check out the picture of "muscle-stars". the guy is 21... so dont tell me stuff about bein "too young" because where i come from - if you are smaller than that at your 25, you have failed and you are too old...

as i once said - im not sayin that im right and you are wrong, but there has to be different opinions on different stuff - i understand what you guys belive in and how much different are my views but it just shows that not all ppl are the same.

its just - i read stuff in here and then i go out on the streets and we just have completely different world of bodybuilding in here, so only because i give advice from my perspective, it doesnt make it bad... it just makes it different - which actually has to be good because ppl come here for opinions

[Shadowmaker]

Ummmm, you do realize even just lifting at too early of an age can stunt your growth

im 6'2...
this is more of a "paper science" - its written somewhere but no one can really see that... im 6'2 but there are guys that are 5'10 and they cycle... so what - you think they are short because of they cycle or started to young? it could be right if only... half of the population wasnt 5'8-5'10

its just - you can scare ppl with "you will get cancer because you smoke" or "you will get cancer because you juice" or "you will have heart disease"... the problem with this is that ppl who dont smoke get lung cancer and ppl who live healthy all their lifes(like my grandma who was a yoga-freak and never ate anything that is not organic and grow by herself in her garden) die from tumors and cancers - the stuff we scare ppl who live unhealthy with.

[Judah]

im 6'2...
this is more of a "paper science" - its written somewhere but no one can really see that... im 6'2 but there are guys that are 5'10 and they cycle... so what - you think they are short because of they cycle or started to young? it could be right if only... half of the population wasnt 5'8-5'10

its just - you can scare ppl with "you will get cancer because you smoke" or "you will get cancer because you juice" or "you will have heart disease"... the problem with this is that ppl who dont smoke get lung cancer and ppl who live healthy all their lifes(like my grandma who was a yoga-freak and never ate anything that is not organic and grow by herself in her garden) die from tumors and cancers - the stuff we scare ppl who live unhealthy with.

For one, you will notice this forum is not geared towards body builders. So, why would you give the same advice to a person just looking for and edge for personal reason as you would a body builder?

Second, your drawing a conclusion from what I said about height that makes zero sense. How did you get that? "they are short becaue they cycle or cycle too early" out of what I said? I never said that. Thats like saying your dicks small because you drank too much soda when you were a kid, maybe it's small because...you have a small dick?

It's a fact not an opinion that growth plates and overall development can be negativly affected in youngsters when training too hard too heavy too early. Pro- Sports team pay hundreds of millions of dollars for players they don't even use right away, why...because if they don't feel like they are fully developed they know if they push them too hard to soon they could ruin their potential.

[Shadowmaker]

you will notice this forum is not geared towards body builders. So, why would you give the same advice to a person just looking for and edge for personal reason as you would a body builder?

first of all - i can never know the reasons for someone juicin...
second - i cant even find it rational to juice if you are not competing or at least want to look like you could do that.

anyway, thats the beauty of a different opinions - there has to be some variety to choose from... i give my opinion, you give yours, and we each have different backgrounds and experience.

also - about the age thing... i find it kinda strange that 50 year olds speak about cyclin at 20, when they have never done that... no personal experience, just some grown-up concern(spelling?!)
sure, you can read a book and say : "no, dont do dbol for first cycle, you'll lose the gain anyway" but until you have really done the cycle, you'll never know that you actually keep around 80% of the gains if that is your first cycle, and that is a real fact from the experience not some "i red it in the book" or "the old guy at the forum said so".

my advices might not be book-smart but they are real and come from what i have done and what i have seen...

cheers!

[Judah]

first of all - i can never know the reasons for someone juicin...
second - i cant even find it rational to juice if you are not competing or at least want to look like you could do that.

anyway, thats the beauty of a different opinions - there has to be some variety to choose from... i give my opinion, you give yours, and we each have different backgrounds and experience.

also - about the age thing... i find it kinda strange that 50 year olds speak about cyclin at 20, when they have never done that... no personal experience, just some grown-up concern(spelling?!)
sure, you can read a book and say : "no, dont do dbol for first cycle, you'll lose the gain anyway" but until you have really done the cycle, you'll never know that you actually keep around 80% of the gains if that is your first cycle, and that is a real fact from the experience not some "i red it in the book" or "the old guy at the forum said so".

my advices might not be book-smart but they are real and come from what i have done and what i have seen...

cheers!

I love different opinions, i crave it. In fact i just starting changing my school of thought on hcg use because of a memeber here and he is not preaching what everybody else here does. The problem is I'm not challenging your opinion. I'm responding to the incorrect comments that you posted about one of my posts here. Plus besides the area of "opinion", you have some flat out holes in what your spittin.

Are you sure thes "60 year olds" are not Speaking from personal experience? How would you even arrive at such a conclusion with confidence?

[marcus300]

You have got some great advice in this thread and I advice you listen to the guys with experience and know what they talking about.

Read my thread young and steriods and I hope you make the right decision.

[600@50]

This should be about how to avoid damage to your HPTA system regardless of age. The problem is that age is a huge factor in how you recover from AAS use. Look at it this way. In someone who's HPTA is fully developed they will probably loose maybe a couple of percentage points of use out of their HPTA with every cycle. That's with a perfect PCT, diet, rest and recovery. At age 25 or whatever you are fully developed you have 100% of a fully developed endo system you can recover to say 95% to 98% of where you were before. When you hit a developing HPTA with a cycle you don't have as much of a reserve before you notice damage has been done and there is no recovery possible.
If you start with 100% of anything you can take more hits than if you began at 60% or 80%. Put it in the same perspective as having a pile of dirt 10 feet high and another pile 6 feet high. When you do a cycle you loose a little bit of function in your HPTA. Equate this to a shovel full of the dirt. You'll have more function left out of the 10 foot high pile than out of the 6 foot pile with each shovel (cycle) you remove. A HPTA that isn't fully developed cannot recover like an adult system. There just isn't as much to work with. You'll be in the game longer by waiting.

[Times Roman]

first of all - because im 22, im the one who should give advice to younger ppl if i have some experience... i have been reading in here and its all the same all the time : "you're too young, look at me - im 50, im cycling, wait 15 years more..." it does not help to anyone...

second thing is something i have already said in one topic and it sounds like "look at me, life is hard for me" but its not ment to be like that, its for ppl like you to understand.
so ill give a brief look at what i said once : the knowledzge of pharmacy changes all over the world. in here you mostly have ppl from US and Canada. you ppl have stuff that i have never heard about and no one has, except for those from US... for example - PCT... in eastern european region no one does that... we dont get lower libido and our gyno goes away in 2 weeks when off-cycle.
we usually start dbol as first cycle(cause we dont have money for stuff you guys use, cause we have the same prices on food and housing as in US, but our monthly wages are the amount of money you ppl give to your kids for school lunch) at the age of 14, because the best bodybuilders in here are huge at 18...
sadly, this forum doesnt allow me to post any links, but the average 18yr old bodybuilder in eastern europe are twice the size the average long-term juicer in here(with exceptions ofc).

so, the age thing is a problem only here, so what im doin - im giving advice from some different perspective and it is actually very sad that if you see this forum overall - there is no real variety of opinion and if a young dude comes here wanting to be next champ for junior category, he just gets sent home by the "old guys".

22 is 1 year too old to compete in juniors... have you seen our juniors? theres a guy in Baltic States called Mārtiņš Skujenieks(copy that into google picture search) and check out the picture of "muscle-stars". the guy is 21... so dont tell me stuff about bein "too young" because where i come from - if you are smaller than that at your 25, you have failed and you are too old...

as i once said - im not sayin that im right and you are wrong, but there has to be different opinions on different stuff - i understand what you guys belive in and how much different are my views but it just shows that not all ppl are the same.

its just - i read stuff in here and then i go out on the streets and we just have completely different world of bodybuilding in here, so only because i give advice from my perspective, it doesnt make it bad... it just makes it different - which actually has to be good because ppl come here for opinions

Mate,
You don't seem to catch what I'm trying to say. 99% of the youngsters that come here looking for advice have not cycled yet or only one cycle. And most will NEVER compete!! And because most will never compete, then the advice we give must be tailored to that. Right now, as we speak, there are 12,701 individuals around the world on this board. The advice i give will apply to over 12,000 of them. The advice YOU give may apply to a couple of dozen, since you are only worried about being large enough at a very young age to compete.

I have an idea. And not to be disrespectful. Maybe you should start your own board, catering to youngsters in their late teens to the early twenties, that need to get real big real fast by using steroids and HGH and anything else you can think of? Then as one of your subforums, you can have sections such as, "Loss of Libido, and what you can do abouut it", or "ED and YOU"?

I have a few Bosnian friends, one that was a pre-olympic hopeful years ago. I know how aggressive the eastern europeans are when it comes to steroids. I also know that once you fall out of the program, for whatever reason, you are on your own. People over there are treated (by their government) almost like an expendable item? My associate was training for powerlifting and judo. He weighs about 280 and is intimidating just to look at. the stories he would tell. they (the government) would pump him up with steroids. he told me half the time he wasn't sure what they were sticking him with.

My point is they are much more liberal minded regarding steroids over there, and don't take nearly the safety precatiouns we take over here.

So please let's not get in a pissing match just because we are trying to take safety precautions, and looking out for our younger members.

One final thought then i'm done.

If your son were to come to you asking about steroids, and he was only 19, would you be happy if he were to begin using?

I've already had that conversation with my son, and happy to report, even at 21, he's still all natural.

[Times Roman]

first of all - i can never know the reasons for someone juicin...
second - i cant even find it rational to juice if you are not competing or at least want to look like you could do that.

anyway, thats the beauty of a different opinions - there has to be some variety to choose from... i give my opinion, you give yours, and we each have different backgrounds and experience.

also - about the age thing... i find it kinda strange that 50 year olds speak about cyclin at 20, when they have never done that... no personal experience, just some grown-up concern(spelling?!)
sure, you can read a book and say : "no, dont do dbol for first cycle, you'll lose the gain anyway" but until you have really done the cycle, you'll never know that you actually keep around 80% of the gains if that is your first cycle, and that is a real fact from the experience not some "i red it in the book" or "the old guy at the forum said so".

my advices might not be book-smart but they are real and come from what i have done and what i have seen...

cheers!

disagree.
it's easy mate. after you've been around awhile like i have, then all you have to do is ask someone. simple as that!

[Shadowmaker]

If your son were to come to you asking about steroids, and he was only 19, would you be happy if he were to begin using?

if someone wants to use steroids , he will... when i started, i was scared, i made all kinds of mistakes and did a lot of stupid stuff, but no matter what happened, it never stopped me to "try at least one more time".
so better for me to help my son than he would stick needles in his ass with stuff which he got from God knows who because someone on the forum told him so.

i dont have any problems with most of you guys treating steroids with huge safety - i gues that is kind of smart from at least 1 point of view, but you and other "old guys" must understand, that if someone has decided to go on roids he will and it is much better for you to help him, than leave him alone in the dark with a needle in his one hand and a pills in the other.
so i can rephrase your question and ask you : "if you have to choose from - making your sons cycle or letting him do a cycle about which he red on the internet or "the big guy in the gym" told him about, what would you choose?"

p.s - there is no need to scare ppl with loss of libido and other spooky things... did you started to cycle around the age of 20, now youre 50 and you just have all the possible sex-drive issues?
if you do - it doesnt mean that everyone will...
if you dont - what makes you think that just because "the studies show" it is real? studies show early death for smokers while smokers live longer than the healthy people does on some ocasions.
its all just ghost stories...

im not sayin that steroids are safe... im not sayin everyone must do them or that young guys would need to do them...
all im sayin is that - if a guy wants to, he will, and better help him, and if he does - chances of him to get some health risks are the same as him just getting killed by a car.
there was a website in which a bodybuilder described how he sees health risks doin steroids : "i will better live 1 year as a lion than 5 years as a donkey" or smth like that.

[beeasy1689]

steroids is an absolute no-no at a young age from where i stand, but im positive that the age old question "does lifting stunt your growth?" has been proved false

[Shadowmaker]

steroids is an absolute no-no at a young age

if what the guys say here is right about the population in this forum - yes...
if guys want to use drugs to get to the point almost anyone gets natural - wheres the point?

the reason why i opose in this is just because i tought that ppl use drugs to beat ppl who are better because they use drugs... there is absolutely no reason to drug use if you stay the average Joe.

[Judah]

if someone wants to use steroids , he will... when i started, i was scared, i made all kinds of mistakes and did a lot of stupid stuff, but no matter what happened, it never stopped me to "try at least one more time".
so better for me to help my son than he would stick needles in his ass with stuff which he got from God knows who because someone on the forum told him so.

i dont have any problems with most of you guys treating steroids with huge safety - i gues that is kind of smart from at least 1 point of view, but you and other "old guys" must understand, that if someone has decided to go on roids he will and it is much better for you to help him, than leave him alone in the dark with a needle in his one hand and a pills in the other.
so i can rephrase your question and ask you : "if you have to choose from - making your sons cycle or letting him do a cycle about which he red on the internet or "the big guy in the gym" told him about, what would you choose?"

p.s - there is no need to scare ppl with loss of libido and other spooky things... did you started to cycle around the age of 20, now youre 50 and you just have all the possible sex-drive issues?
if you do - it doesnt mean that everyone will...
if you dont - what makes you think that just because "the studies show" it is real? studies show early death for smokers while smokers live longer than the healthy people does on some ocasions.
its all just ghost stories...

im not sayin that steroids are safe... im not sayin everyone must do them or that young guys would need to do them...
all im sayin is that - if a guy wants to, he will, and better help him, and if he does - chances of him to get some health risks are the same as him just getting killed by a car.
there was a website in which a bodybuilder described how he sees health risks doin steroids : "i will better live 1 year as a lion than 5 years as a donkey" or smth like that.

Dude you are all over the place with your advice lol.

"if someone wants to use steroids, he will... when i started, i was scared, i made all kinds of mistakes and did a lot of stupid stuff, but no matter what happened, it never stopped me to "try at least one more time".

So you made stupid mistakes and your solution was "try at least one more time" lol? Failing and trying again only is a good idea when your talking about things like wanting to run the 40 yard dash in 4.4 sec. Not when your injecting powerful synthetic hormones in to a body with a endocrine system that has not finished developing lol..what the fu-ck is wrong with you dude??

[Judah]

if what the guys say here is right about the population in this forum - yes...
if guys want to use drugs to get to the point almost anyone gets natural - wheres the point?

the reason why i opose in this is just because i tought that ppl use drugs to beat ppl who are better because they use drugs... there is absolutely no reason to drug use if you stay the average Joe.

Dude, your thinking is so narrow minded it's scary. Your thinking in such a limited capacity.

[not so slim]

I remember when I was 22 and knew everything too! Then I learned at
22 you don't have experience in anything yet!

[Imperious]

As others suggested waiting until you are fully matured before messing with them.

[Shadowmaker]

Dude, your thinking is so narrow minded it's scary. Your thinking in such a limited capacity.

oh, please, dont get started on the personal note here...

im not narrow minded, i just cant understand the reason for using muscle building drugs if the goal is not to build muscle and by building a muscle i mean something more than that you can do without the drugs.

[Judah]

oh, please, dont get started on the personal note here...

im not narrow minded, i just cant understand the reason for using muscle building drugs if the goal is not to build muscle and by building a muscle i mean something more than that you can do without the drugs.

That's a different tune your singing now. You described it before as not seeing the point if your not going to be bigger the people around you. You back peddling and slowly lowering the extreme nature of what you said. I don't mind if people change their opinion, that's why we are all on here...but back peddling is not "evolving" in your education...it's a cover up tactic. If your starting to question your original school of thought share that and we will embrace it wether you adopt it or not

[not so slim]

oh, please, dont get started on the personal note here...

im not narrow minded, i just cant understand the reason for using muscle building drugs if the goal is not to build muscle and by building a muscle i mean something more than that you can do without the drugs.

so now you agree with what everyone else is saying!!! At 20 yrs old you don't need gear to grow! When you reach 30 and older it is harder to make gains!

[Judah]

so now you agree with what everyone else is saying!!! At 20 yrs old you don't need gear to grow! When you reach 30 and older it is harder to make gains!

No wonder this guys name is Shadow, he's a slippery fuc-ker!

[Shadowmaker]

That's a different tune your singing now.

it seems that i cant make myself clear because as i said - english is not my first language nor my second, i learned it for 5 years at school and this is the first time i really have to use it, so sorry if i suck too much.

ill try again - in my opinion : people use steroids to get huge. to get huge you need lots of years so you start at 16 to get to some level at 40.
when a young dude comes in here and asks stuff, before you started to get really rude, i would have never let myself to think that this guy wants to use drugs to get 5lbs of muscle at the age of 16 just because he cant get his diet right.
i have never met people who would use drugs to get to that level.
when there is a discussion about drugs, the first thing that comes in my mind is that the guy wants to be a mutant and since i share the same dream and i started early, i give advice from my experience.

if the people in here doesnt want to get really big, no one of them needs drugs no matter what age - you are natural and you look good for "normal" fitness person and i think that is enough.

its just completely new to me that people want to use drugs for some stupid reasons... where i live, drugs are considered bad, and only a few madman do them because they want to get big and other, especially young guys are scared of drugs because we have tons of stereotypes about them and some everyday average fitness dude would never use drugs to get a few pounds of meat on his bones.

do i make some sence now?

[Times Roman]

if someone wants to use steroids, he will... when i started, i was scared, i made all kinds of mistakes and did a lot of stupid stuff, but no matter what happened, it never stopped me to "try at least one more time".
so better for me to help my son than he would stick needles in his ass with stuff which he got from God knows who because someone on the forum told him so.

i dont have any problems with most of you guys treating steroids with huge safety - i gues that is kind of smart from at least 1 point of view, but you and other "old guys" must understand, that if someone has decided to go on roids he will and it is much better for you to help him, than leave him alone in the dark with a needle in his one hand and a pills in the other.
so i can rephrase your question and ask you : "if you have to choose from - making your sons cycle or letting him do a cycle about which he red on the internet or "the big guy in the gym" told him about, what would you choose?"

p.s - there is no need to scare ppl with loss of libido and other spooky things... did you started to cycle around the age of 20, now youre 50 and you just have all the possible sex-drive issues?
if you do - it doesnt mean that everyone will...
if you dont - what makes you think that just because "the studies show" it is real? studies show early death for smokers while smokers live longer than the healthy people does on some ocasions.
its all just ghost stories...

im not sayin that steroids are safe... im not sayin everyone must do them or that young guys would need to do them...
all im sayin is that - if a guy wants to, he will, and better help him, and if he does - chances of him to get some health risks are the same as him just getting killed by a car.
there was a website in which a bodybuilder described how he sees health risks doin steroids : "i will better live 1 year as a lion than 5 years as a donkey" or smth like that.

disagree again with you mate. in the few short years i've been here, i've had at least 20 youngsters PM me later on thanking me for talking them out of using steroids too soon. And if 20 pm'd me, makes me wonder how many followed my advice, but didn't PM? You are looking at things incorrectly. the decision is more than just

taking gear without advice, and...
taking gear with advice

Dude, your thinking is so narrow minded it's scary. Your thinking in such a limited capacity.

oh, please, dont get started on the personal note here...

im not narrow minded, i just cant understand the reason for using muscle building drugs if the goal is not to build muscle and by building a muscle i mean something more than that you can do without the drugs.

No wonder this guys name is Shadow, he's a slippery fuc-ker!

Mates,

There is nothing wrong with disagreement. We can agree to disagree, and debate the issue intelligently without the flaming.

I may disagree with Shadow, but i will defend his right to voice his opinion.

[Judah]

it seems that i cant make myself clear because as i said - english is not my first language nor my second, i learned it for 5 years at school and this is the first time i really have to use it, so sorry if i suck too much.

ill try again - in my opinion : people use steroids to get huge. to get huge you need lots of years so you start at 16 to get to some level at 40.
when a young dude comes in here and asks stuff, before you started to get really rude, i would have never let myself to think that this guy wants to use drugs to get 5lbs of muscle at the age of 16 just because he cant get his diet right.
i have never met people who would use drugs to get to that level.
when there is a discussion about drugs, the first thing that comes in my mind is that the guy wants to be a mutant and since i share the same dream and i started early, i give advice from my experience.

if the people in here doesnt want to get really big, no one of them needs drugs no matter what age - you are natural and you look good for "normal" fitness person and i think that is enough.

its just completely new to me that people want to use drugs for some stupid reasons... where i live, drugs are considered bad, and only a few madman do them because they want to get big and other, especially young guys are scared of drugs because we have tons of stereotypes about them and some everyday average fitness dude would never use drugs to get a few pounds of meat on his bones.

do i make some sence now?

Yes, and I have total respect that your doing this in a language that is not even your second language. I can't Imagine if I tried to communicate clearly on a Chinese forum.

Thanks for taking the time to explain yourself.

[Judah]

disagree again with you mate. in the few short years i've been here, i've had at least 20 youngsters PM me later on thanking me for talking them out of using steroids too soon. And if 20 pm'd me, makes me wonder how many followed my advice, but didn't PM? You are looking at things incorrectly. the decision is more than just

taking gear without advice, and...
taking gear with advice

Mates,

There is nothing wrong with disagreement. We can agree to disagree, and debate the issue intelligently without the flaming.

I may disagree with Shadow, but i will defend his right to voice his opinion.

Ya my bad, I own that. My apologies to shadow and the forum.

[not so slim]

I also apologies I was not trying to flame anyone just pointing out he is saying the same thing as everyone else!

[Shadowmaker]

Judah - i would like to know your opinion. For example, a young Jay Cutler here wants to be a Mr.O... do you give him advice that : "wait till you're 30?"

like, for me - if im not at some level till im 25, im a failure. i already failed at juniors because i started to juice at 18, not at 15... whats your advice here?