prolactin, subs for caber/ bromo, as they potentially cause heart valve damage

[akaz13]

As the title says.

Cabergoline and bromocriptine potentially cause heart valve damage:

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http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/95/3/1025.long

An association has been demonstrated between valvular heart disease and dopamine agonist use in patients treated for Parkinson’s disease. Following these reports, concern has been raised among endocrinologists about the safety of long-term treatment with dopamine agonists in hyperprolactinemic patients. The article will summarize all currently published research regarding the possible risk of valvulopathy in hyperprolactinemic patients on dopamine agonists and provide guidance based on current findings.
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Bromo has less affinity fo the heart valve, but:

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Bromocriptine and quinagolide have weaker affinity for the 5HT2B receptor and, therefore, are thought to be less valvulopathic. However, in 2002, a case report was published describing the occurrence of triple valvular fibroplasia and severe tricuspid regurgitation in a 63-yr-old man with Parkinson’s disease who had been treated with 40 mg/d of bromocriptine for 30 months (19).
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Obviously, that is a much higher dose than used for aas related prolactin. However, as the study shows, hyperprolactin related users would potentially be 'on' much longer than parkinson's pts..

And parkinson's pts, had more dopamine antagonist associated heart valve damage. But they also had other elevated factors for heart valve issues, such as age, hypertention, diabetes, etc..

In the end, the study mostly concludes statistical insignificance in hyperprolactin related users vs general pop for heart valve issues. BUT, why risk it if there are potentially other routes to deal w/ prolactin?

All that laid out, feel free to make suggestions to deal w/ prolactin (I use tren and deca )..

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Patients taking these dopamine agonists, particularly cabergoline, should be educated about the potential risks associated with their use, and the role of echocardiographic monitoring should be decided on an individual basis. Moreover, treatment with these drugs should be recommended at the lowest dose and for the shortest duration possible. In some carefully selected individuals with prolactinomas, withdrawal of dopamine agonist therapy appears to be possible, without negative clinical consequences (1, 44, 45). Non-ergot-derived dopamine agonists such as quinagolide (not currently available in the United States), pramipexole, and ropinirole may represent other therapeutic options.
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The above, in bold are potential alternatives, but I haven't researched them yet. Any info or suggestions are welcome.

[kelkel]

Read that before. Remember most people here who use caber do so for short periods, not long term and the dosage is on average maybe .25 to .5 x 2 per week which is very low. There are risks to every substance we injest for whatever diverse purpose. The risk-reward is determined by the user and hopefully backed up by BW. Interesting read anyway.

Meant to add. I've been running caber for about 2 months now with my TRT protocol. Love it.

@ .25 x 2 per week btw.

kel

[Atomini]

Listen,

Did you not read the information that you yourself posted? Let me clarify something here:

Bromocriptine and quinagolide have weaker affinity for the 5HT2B receptor and, therefore, are thought to be less valvulopathic. However, in 2002, a case report was published describing the occurrence of triple valvular fibroplasia and severe tricuspid regurgitation in a 63-yr-old man with Parkinson’s disease who had been treated with 40 mg/d of bromocriptine for 30 months (19).

FORTY MILIGRAMS PER DAY!!!!

FOR THIRTY MONTHS!!!!

That's TWO AND A HALF YEARS!!!

The Bromocriptine dose that is typically used for prolactin control on cycle (and even in clinical situations for treating pituitary tumors, etc.) is 1.25mg/day to 2.5mg/day.

Are you seriously telling me that you are scared to use Cabergoline or Bromocriptine because there was some report of a guy dying from heart damage who was being perscribed approximately FORTY TIMES the normal theraputic doses?? I am an avid user of Cabergoline for prolactin control, and I have always been refuting time and time again these claims that Cabergoline or Bromocriptine will cause heart valve damage at normal theraputic doses.

Cabergoline presents no side effects at 1mg per week. In clinical studies with Parkinsons patients it has demonstrated heart valve damage at a dose of 3mg PER DAY (that's 21mg per week). Even then, it was only described that 25% of patients received heart valve damage. At 1mg per WEEK, which is what the dosing protocol should be for prolactin control while using 19-nor compounds, it is safer than peanuts.

Caber is a great drug, but I would still reccomend using it for short periods, much like things like nolvadex . Will you present any harm to yourself using Cabergoline at 1mg/week for 12 weeks for prolactin control on cycle and throughout PCT? NO. Will you present any harm to yourself using Bromocriptine at 2mg/day for 12 weeks for prolactin control on cycle and throguhout PCT? NO!

Enough of this stuff on heart valve damage from Caber and Bromocriptine, i'm tired of hearing it. If you take the time to simply read the actual cases of subjects who did get heart damage (as well as the studies done on rats and mice), you'll see these subjects were given BATHTUB LOADS OF THE DRUGS! Often for extremely long periods of time! Do we use these compounds in such a fashion? Absolutely not. Leave the fear mongering with these compounds where the sun doesn't shine.

[Atomini]

Oh, and I would also like to add that the doses I just listed for Bromocriptine and Cabergoline are at the utmost higher end for prolactin control.

One can easily get by on .25-.50mg PER WEEK of Cabergoline. Not always a need for a full 1mg per week. The most I have personally run was 2mg/week.

Or,

1.25mg per day of Bromocriptine. No need for a full 2.5mg per day either.

[ScotchGuard02]

What about Prami? Is it as effective as caber or bromo? I read that .5mg to 1mg everyday was a "normal" dosage. Is this a fair statement?

[Atomini]

Yes, Prami is just as effective.

The only reason why i've stayed away from it is its side effect of nausea and vomiting if the dose is raised too fast or too high. Typically one would want to increase dose to 1mg/day slowly, with the starting point being 0.5mg/day. Many people have reported bad nausea when raising the dose.

These side effects do not occur at all with Caber. I love Caber, so I will be sticking with it over Prami, as much as i'd love to try Prami.

[JohnnnyBlazzze]

Yes, Prami is just as effective.

The only reason why i've stayed away from it is its side effect of nausea and vomiting if the dose is raised too fast or too high. Typically one would want to increase dose to 1mg/day slowly, with the starting point being 0.5mg/day. Many people have reported bad nausea when raising the dose.

These side effects do not occur at all with Caber. I love Caber, so I will be sticking with it over Prami, as much as i'd love to try Prami.

Prami kicked my butt at first. I get hit with a massive drowsiness and usually knock out before I feel nauseated. If I stay awake though I do feel the nausea and it is not enjoyable to say the least lol. I prefer caber now as well!

[Atomini]

Prami kicked my butt at first. I get hit with a massive drowsiness and usually knock out before I feel nauseated. If I stay awake though I do feel the nausea and it is not enjoyable to say the least lol. I prefer caber now as well!

Yeah the only appealing factor about Prami seems to be its side effect of drowsiness and knocking people out cold. I could REALLY use that on my tren cycles with the insomnia tren gives me. But like I said, the only reason why I won't touch Prami is its nausea/vomiting side effect. If it were not for that, i'd jump on Prami immediately.

Caber works for me. Why not change what works just fine, right?

[akaz13]

>>posted by JohnnnyBlazzze
Prami kicked my butt at first. I get hit with a massive drowsiness and usually knock out before I feel nauseated. If I stay awake though I do feel the nausea and it is not enjoyable to say the least lol. I prefer caber now as well!<<

Quote wasn't working..

Blaze, afa nausea, what abut taking it b4 bed?

& what was ur dose?

[donopat]

I used prami no problem at all for 4 months....started with .25ml a day for a while, than went up a little...never went over .5ml......was on npp, test, eq....even got BW done and prolactin levels were low and all other hormone levels were elevated

[kolaking]

Cabergoline can be used in the doses that we use it for with absolutely no risk for HVD...Those risks start at the 7-8 mg ed level. I take 1 mg per week!

[Atomini]

Cabergoline can be used in the doses that we use it for with absolutely no risk for HVD...Those risks start at the 7-8 mg ed level. I take 1 mg per week!

Yup, exactly what i've been saying in my posts. It is harmless at the doses we use.