QB cycle

**packerfan12** · 10-09-2012, 10:58 PM

hey guys im new on here but i wanna thank you in advance for the responses.
Here are my stats:
21 years old
6'1
190
BF:10-12% roughly
Im trying to plan a cycle for this coming year. i wanna get bigger faster stronger (typical huh?) haha. I play QB in college but am not worried about getting tested because of certain unspoken reasons. so testing is not an issue. I want to get up around 205 to 210 MAX but i dont wanna get so bulky i cant run or throw. One thing i would like to do is gain some speed and i know the answer isnt AAS but ive read that some can increase your fast twitch muscles. I would also like keep the ligaments in tact for i already have shoulder and elbow problems.
I have messed around with some Prohormones a few times but have never done AAS.
My workout plan is all football related stuff (power clean bench squat front squat dead lift etc.) Im in season now so im only working out 3 days a week to maintain the muscle i do have. Once season is over i will hit it hard once again. My offseason precise diet and workout plan is a work in progress right now and i will post that up when it is finished. If you have any input on that, thatd be awesome i would love some advice.
So my rough plan is Test Cyp/EQ/Tbol.
Weeks 1-15 Test Cyp at 250 mg 2xweek
Weeks 5-15 EQ at 250 mg 2x week
Weeks 1-5 Tbol at 30 mg ED
PCT: I will have arimidex on hand thru cycle. Nolvadex at 20 mg ED. (chose these because i am prone to gyno. even with prohormones)
Not 100% sure what is the best PCT for something like this. HCG ?

I am not set on this at all but after doing research this was what stood out to me as a good cycle for an athlete with my goals.

So a few more questions the noob has:
What should my calorie intake be on cycle? Fat? Carbs? Protein? (Any input on diet is appreciated)
What have you guys found is the best workout routine for you, on cycle, to build quality lean mass?
Is 10 weeks long enough for EQ? i know it takes a while to kick in and is a slow gainer.
I have been doing research on HCG but i still dont quite understand it. any expertise on that? And how does that affect cycle therapy both on and post?

If i left anything out let me know, Thanks in advance for the help guys.

**austinite** · 10-09-2012, 11:06 PM

Welcome Packerfan.

**packerfan12** · 10-09-2012, 11:08 PM

thank you! Any words of wisdom?

**austinite** · 10-09-2012, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by packerfan12

thank you! Any words of wisdom?

Sure.

Although I am fairly confident you will not like what I have to say, but I say this with your best interest in mind

It's in your best interest to wait before you cycle. This is because cycling at your age and shutting your natural testosterone production down before you reach your growth limits will result in the potential of lifetime damage to your endocrine system. This could lead to a life time need for Testosterone Replacement Therapy, possibly erectile dysfunction and a host of other issues. There is no proven age where you can cycle safley, however, I'll leave you with some notes from a very nowledgable member who took the time to get some info for us...

Originally Posted by marcus300

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.

I have recently spoken to my Endo regarding this matter and he tells me that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.

I did ask him what age he would think would be the safest as far as risk to damages and he said many endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. I personally feel 24-25yrs old would also be ideal starting point to get bloodwrok drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point, for me there is to much evidence over the forums and what I've seen personally over the last 25yrs I've been bodybuilding. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I am edging on the side of caution what age I advice to the newbies.
Marcus

Stay positive and others will reply with different opinions, I'm sure. My recommendation is that you hit the nutrition forum and learn how to eat to grow. Use the next few years to gather as much knowledge as possible.

Best of luck to you and good to have you on board.

**packerfan12** · 10-09-2012, 11:20 PM

Thank you for the information. I will definitely take that into consideration. But is the damage already done since ive already done prohormones? I know that shut down my natural test

**austinite** · 10-09-2012, 11:30 PM

What did you cycle and how long ago?

**packerfan12** · 10-09-2012, 11:35 PM

Ive done two seperate prohormone cycles. One month of ***** when I was 17 (had no clue what prohormones were and didnt realize what I was doing) and then one 2 years ago of ***** it was called I think. Looking bak I know it was dumb but I didnt know any better. Just thoight it was another suplement

**austinite** · 10-09-2012, 11:49 PM

Not familiar but a quick search tells me that's a steroid . Labeled as a PH. mild, but still a steroid. (unless of course you purchased it from a GNC-like store, labeled as such for marketing purposes. )

Were you advised to run a PCT for this?

**packerfan12** · 10-09-2012, 11:54 PM

Ya I didnt know that at the time. And it wasnt gnc, it was legit. I did run somewhat of a pct. I ran the off brand nolvadex called novadex from my local vitamin shop. But I came off that and had some gyno still so I got some legit nolvadex and that took care of that real quick.

**austinite** · 10-10-2012, 12:01 AM

Really who knows. Everyone is different. You might be just fine. The important thing going forward is to make the most educated decisions possible. You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders (maybe not 2 years ago, but neither did I at 18!!)

So I think you will be smart about what you do.

Stick around, tons of valuable information on this forum.

Have a powerful day!

**packerfan12** · 10-10-2012, 12:02 AM

Will do. Thank you for your help.

**warmouth** · 10-10-2012, 12:06 AM

Are your intentions to become pro? I ask that becasue 6'1" is not ideal for NFL type QBs. You have to be a serious standout like Brees or should I say it.......Sanchez.lol. But seriously, if college is as far as you plan to take this, youre there already. Just play to the best of your abilities and eat right, and train like there is no tommorrow. I know and understand alot of college FB players use, I am not blind, but they are pro ready and steriods are rampant in the NFL anyways. My though process has always been this. If your not good enough to make it to college on a sports scholarship without AAS, your not good enough to go pro. But to each their own. I understand wanting to use, especially with others using and trying to take your head off. But if college is as far as you are planning on taking it, I would just hold off because it really isnt worth the long term consequences by using at your age if youre not going to go pro(or go pro either on IMO). Good Luck!

**Honkey_Kong** · 10-10-2012, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by packerfan12

Ya I didnt know that at the time. And it wasnt gnc, it was legit. I did run somewhat of a pct. I ran the off brand nolvadex called novadex from my local vitamin shop. But I came off that and had some gyno still so I got some legit nolvadex and that took care of that real quick.

You mean Novadex Xt? That stuff is garbage. I don't think Gaspari even makes that crap anymore. Chalk that up to ignorance and being mislead by the title.

If I were you, I wouldn't mess with AAS yet. As Warmouth said, you have to be pretty standout to go past college ball. What you should do while you're there for free is get yourself an actual education. If you want to get up to 200-210, steroids or not, you should be eating like a 210lb man eats.

So what you should do right now, is go through your entire diet and write down everything you eat when you eat and how much you eat. Then figure out the macros for each item. Then post that on here. There is a whole ton of people on here who can help you tweak your diet so you make those goals. And by the way, a 6'1 man should be able to reach 210lbs naturally and still be lean.

**packerfan12** · 10-10-2012, 04:02 AM

Going pro may or may not be in my future but thats not really what I am worried about. I just wanna maximize my potential while im here and look back when im 40 saying I did EVERYTHING I could to be the best player possible, w or without AAS. If youre not cheating youre not trying. And now a days everyone is cheating. So really, im not 100% sure if im gna juice yet but I would like some information and advice on the actual cycle so if I do decide to go down that route I can make the most of it and be safe while doing it. I understand the pros and cons of each side but if you have some input on the actual cycle and my original questions that would be extremely helpful

**Honkey_Kong** · 10-10-2012, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by packerfan12

Going pro may or may not be in my future but thats not really what I am worried about. I just wanna maximize my potential while im here and look back when im 40 saying I did EVERYTHING I could to be the best player possible, w or without AAS. If youre not cheating youre not trying. And now a days everyone is cheating. So really, im not 100% sure if im gna juice yet but I would like some information and advice on the actual cycle so if I do decide to go down that route I can make the most of it and be safe while doing it. I understand the pros and cons of each side but if you have some input on the actual cycle and my original questions that would be extremely helpful

My point is your goal of being 205-210lbs is attainable without AAS. It'd be one thing if you were 5'5, but you're 6'1. I personally don't think a kid your age should be using gear, but forget that, you're not even close to your natural limit yet. Even if you were 26, you still got room to progress naturally. So if you do decide to run gear, get your diet straightened out long before then.

If you want to be 210lbs, you need to eat more food than you are currently eating.

**packerfan12** · 10-10-2012, 06:56 AM

I understand I need to improve my diet. It is damn near impossible to put on weight during season w the cardio and time we spend on the field in the film room and in the classroom. I do get what youre saying but time is of the essence. Most of us can only play ball for so long. Anyway, does anyone have any advice on thw actual cycle? Pct? Suggestions?

**packerfan12** · 10-10-2012, 09:03 AM

Bump

**cherrydrpepper** · 10-10-2012, 11:38 AM

Hi packerfan12. I'm reluctant to enter this thread because you are a young dude and its generally not recommended someone start aas that young.

Here is a good story about olympians eating animal testicles if you want to go old school
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1728929.html

I dont know how you are going to avoid testing and don't want to know. I came across this and thought you should see it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid...rican_football
"The use of performance enhancing drugs has also been found in other levels of football, including play at college level, and even high school play.[5] The most recent figures from the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) football drug tests show that one percent of all NCAA football players failed drug tests taken at bowl games, and three percent have admitted to using steroids overall.[5] In the NCAA, players are subject to random testing with 48 hours notice, and are also randomly tested throughout the annual bowl games.[5] The NCAA will usually take approximately 20 percent of the players on a football team to test on a specific day.[5]"
(AND THIS):
"There are a ton of (masking) products out there. What most of them cause is diuresis (increased excretion of urine), which means the athlete is providing diluted urine sample, almost water. In NCAA drug testing, the athlete is required to provide a concentrated specimen that passes a specific gravity cutoff. If the specimen is too diluted, he has to provide another sample. Using a product to cause diuresis is not going to help."

My take on steroids is.. the earlier you get into them and the harder the more dangerous. Look at smoking or alcohol (both many times more dangerous than aas). People who get into them hard when they are 15 are lucky to resemble a human being at 30. I would guess aas is no different. Do you think the most famous user of aas, Arnie, is on a low dose/or off them (given his beach pics a couple years ago) because he doesn't have a good source or can't afford them? Or maybe he's not vain enough to be on them? Maybe he has no idea how to diet and exercise? No he's choosing to live over shooting a gram or two of juice a week, or whatever he was shooting back in his competition days (I can only speculate).

Anyway I'm telling you all this because you need to know what box you are opening. I replied to your post because you mentioned elbow and shoulder issues. On Deca you will notice less pain and better function. Its not even debatable in my mind the difference is there. The downside is deca dik. Literally you will have dick issues getting hard. These continue for a month and a half after you stop aas and can continue the rest of your life if you damage your system or abuse aas (i.e. if you stayed on for a very long time without coming off). Everyone telling you to work on your diet is spot on. Any gains you make will come right back off when you stop.

I have a serious shoulder injury. Like I said I replied mostly because you play college football and said you have some elbow/shoulder issues. I take several vitamins of which fish oil, ,msm chondroitin, glucosamine and l-lysine are supposed to help with joint function and I believe they do. I do a lot of warm up sets before any shoulder or chest exercises. I do the two exercises in this video for my shoulder a couple of times a week to try to restrengthen the rotator cuff:

I have been meaning to try out most of the exercises in this video but really right now I only do the exercise he does at 9:16 in:

My question to you is do you have a strengthening exercise or warm up routine or maybe something an assistant has told you to do? I know at some colleges the rehab programs are on par with pro level. Videos/pics preferred if you have any.

**bigmatt33** · 10-10-2012, 12:15 PM

You already know the risk so I'm not going to say anything. When I take test and eq I always run the test higher than the eq. I don't know much about Tbol because I try not to take orals that are hard on the liver. I'm not going to say much else about you cycle. I don't have a problem with it.

As far as your training I'm not totally sure what you should do. Most of us on here train for size. As a football player you probably need to train more for functional strength. Of course you will still get bigger if you eat right.

**packerfan12** · 10-10-2012, 02:14 PM

Ok so sould you drop the eq ? Or up the test? And why do you keep eq below the amount of test? Also any input on pct for this?

As far as prehab and warmup for my shoulder and elbow goes I do a lot of band workouts and super light wights with range of motion stuff. I also electric stem on occasion and ice after practice. One really good thing for your rotator cuff is to roll on a softball(a hard softball). So lay on your back and put the softball behind your shoulder and work it around. It will hurt like hell if you do it right. I will tryn find a video of the band workouts I am doing. As far as the elbow goes, its real hard to rehab/prehab thst because its all ligament and no muscle. I find cortisone the best option for elbow pain

**packerfan12** · 10-10-2012, 02:19 PM

And to add to that I dont do any heavy weight over my head for shoulders (military press, incline bench, and even decline bench kills my shoulder). Youre goals are most likely different then mine because I need a very flexible lean shoilder but I do every shoulder workout w light weight and high reps. This is all what ive been told by the medical stafff here for preventing shlulder re injury. Hope that helps. Any input on the cycle? Pct? Im not set on doing it but If I do decide to I wanna do it right.

**P.Money** · 10-10-2012, 02:52 PM

Stay off the juice, you're 21 not 31. Take a natural test booster if anything. Juicing before 25 is just stupid all together.

**packerfan12** · 10-10-2012, 03:20 PM

Natural testosterone booster ? I dont like throwing my money away

**cherrydrpepper** · 10-10-2012, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by packerfan12

And to add to that I dont do any heavy weight over my head for shoulders (military press, incline bench, and even decline bench kills my shoulder). Youre goals are most likely different then mine because I need a very flexible lean shoilder but I do every shoulder workout w light weight and high reps. This is all what ive been told by the medical stafff here for preventing shlulder re injury. Hope that helps. Any input on the cycle? Pct? Im not set on doing it but If I do decide to I wanna do it right.

Advice on the cycle hmm. You seem like you are going to do it regardless of advice I assume. Appreciate your posts on your rehab and warmup. Your cycle seems intelligent. A bit advanced to be honest. Your cycle is like something I would run (Im over 30). I especially like how you have arimidex and nolva while on. This is something I would do as I tend to get moon faced and puffy all over. Running these it will be night and day between being bloated to being dry in appearance if you are like me. Cyp, Tbol and EQ, a bit much for a first timer but you are going to do what you want to do again I assume. Cyp is a good base of testosterone . Tbol I have not ran but am reading its like dbol without the bloat. EQ is for "strength gains and vascularity" according to this site. I know someone stacking EQ, Masteron , Tren and Sust and they look incredible but they are also in their 30s and naturally big. In general I think your stack is going to make you much stronger without a lot of excessive water weight.

If you dont change your diet everything you do here will be for nothing. I promise you if you don't increase your calories and protein intake even when off cycle you'll lose every single pound you gain. Im speaking from experience.

**packerfan12** · 10-10-2012, 03:41 PM

ok that makes sense. thank you for the input. I have heard good things about tbol and EQ in terms of speed (sprinting speed). that is one of my main goals with this cycle is lean mass with very little water weight and i really want to focus on my speed and agility. more power focused training then strength. how would you handle the nolva and or arimidex on cycle? just as needed? and also what would you suggest as a specific PCT for this? doses? and how long after the last shot of cyp do i start it?
And lastly, to address the diet, i did post up another thread on how to eat better with the food that is provided to me on my schools dining plan. That is the hardest part. i dont have complete control because i dont have that many options in the cafeteria.
thanks again for your input

**cherrydrpepper** · 10-10-2012, 03:50 PM

Good questions.. PCT I usually do 20 mg day / Nolvadex and 50 mg day / Clomid for a month. There is a better more accurate pct on this site. I would use the search function. I think some people front load and blah blah I would do some digging. My advice on the diet is this.. its like that old quote you either will or you won't. I hope you dont have to lose all your gains to finally decide you will.

I drink a gallon of milk a day. This works for me. I love milk and have no lactose intolerance. I could probably suck it straight from the cows teat. Milk imo is good for strength and size. Its probably not ideal for what you are doing (strength, leanness, speed). Your best bet is going to be the diet area of the forum. This is what I would do. I would do what this guy does in this video 2 to 3 times a day plus your school meals. Oh and cook your steaks a lot longer than 2 damn minutes:

**cherrydrpepper** · 10-10-2012, 03:52 PM

One more thing. Nolvadex dries my joints out thats just my experience. If you feel your joints are drier than normal I would taper the dose down even more that you are doing while on. I haven't had issues with arimidex that I have noticed.

**packerfan12** · 10-10-2012, 04:07 PM

Ok I will definitely look that up thank. And its funny you say the milk thing because I am extremely loctose intolerant. Haha. No milk no cheese no yogurt none of that haha

**Honkey_Kong** · 10-11-2012, 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by packerfan12

ok that makes sense. thank you for the input. I have heard good things about tbol and EQ in terms of speed (sprinting speed). that is one of my main goals with this cycle is lean mass with very little water weight and i really want to focus on my speed and agility. more power focused training then strength. how would you handle the nolva and or arimidex on cycle? just as needed? and also what would you suggest as a specific PCT for this? doses? and how long after the last shot of cyp do i start it?
And lastly, to address the diet, i did post up another thread on how to eat better with the food that is provided to me on my schools dining plan. That is the hardest part. i dont have complete control because i dont have that many options in the cafeteria.
thanks again for your input

As far as EQ and tbol go, you might show up positive for these on a drug test. Even the estered tests might get you caught. You've got to be really careful about that in fact, I wouldn't even start a cycle until you know all the ins and outs to the NCAA drug testing procedures. You need to be within 24 hours of being notified of your test to piss clean correct?

**packerfan12** · 10-11-2012, 08:10 AM

Ya the piss test is 24 hour notice. But I dont have to worry about testing. I know it sounds weird but I cant rly explain on here why.
Any suggestions on the cycle? Pct?

**stpete** · 10-11-2012, 09:20 AM

You have a few obstacles in your way. First, being your age. Second, this testing that will most definitely hurt you if caught. I know you say not to worry about it but if there's a chance of you being tested, then there's a chance of you getting caught. Third, if you can't eat right you might as well forget it. Need to get workouts in order too. A visit to the PCT Forum will tell you that HCG is typically used during cycle up to PCT. Nolva and Clomid for PCT, and in your case, it would start 15 days after last injection. Pretty sure that's correct. Like i said, need to get over there and double check.

And if you're dead set on it, regardless of the obstacles i mentioned, just run the test for 12 weeks at your dosage you have listed. The EQ is a complete waste.

Good Luck