How do steroids at a young age really effect hormones later in life?

**Sworder** · 10-12-2012, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Capebuffalo

Wow the new guys seem to be worth every dime.
Marcus has been here a long time and has practical knowledge a little respect would be nice.
Opinions aside.

I am pretty adamant about not insulting somebody personally especially in a discussion, I think it proves lack of self-control and knowledge on the topic at hand. I haven't said anything about Marcus300's character and I usually just look at what message is posted and not what their title under the name is. Unless it is MD

The funny thing is that along with insulting me personally he included a lot of other respectable people in that their opinion is congruent with mine. Also, Swifto's many posts include studies done on animals, that is how science is done. Matt had a great post as well based on his knowledge are you discrediting him as well? I am sorry I offended anybody but I am merely stating my opinion and ideas.

The most humorous thing is that NOBODY touched on any of my key arguments nor ideas. The only rebuttal was that "you are a kid" or "you read too many studies".

I agree that AAS can hurt youth before they are 25. It is stretching it far though to claim that their HPTA needs to mature and most data I can find supports the opposite. So if I were to question something which lacks any logical or scientific information, I get bashed on my age. I have seen this in other threads too where one person's post go unread and repeating the same thing over and over again is done. Read through my posts and argue the points I make. That is discussion, not pointing the finger and saying "you are too young".

**Wazz** · 10-12-2012, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

I am pretty adamant about not insulting somebody personally especially in a discussion, I think it proves lack of self-control and knowledge on the topic at hand. I haven't said anything about Marcus300's character and I usually just look at what message is posted and not what their title under the name is. Unless it is MD

The funny thing is that along with insulting me personally he included a lot of other respectable people in that their opinion is congruent with mine. Also, Swifto's many posts include studies done on animals, that is how science is done. Matt had a great post as well based on his knowledge are you discrediting him as well? I am sorry I offended anybody but I am merely stating my opinion and ideas.

The most humorous thing is that NOBODY touched on any of my key arguments nor ideas. The only rebuttal was that "you are a kid" or "you read too many studies".

I agree that AAS can hurt youth before they are 25. It is stretching it far though to claim that their HPTA needs to mature and most data I can find supports the opposite. So if I were to question something which lacks any logical or scientific information, I get bashed on my age. I have seen this in other threads too where one person's post go unread and repeating the same thing over and over again is done. Read through my posts and argue the points I make. That is discussion, not pointing the finger and saying "you are too young".

I read your profile

Good intro & you are you. This is what you said (not to be taken out of context) "Could be the fact that she knew that I would argue anything she stated which wasn't supported by literature."

So indeed it sounds like you just really like hard facts. "I'm 99.9% sure", So you don't know!

Either way this has been a good thread & the points brought up have opened up more conversation.

Wazz

**Sworder** · 10-12-2012, 12:45 PM

It's not about who is right or wrong, it's about the truth and what data supports.

If you are proclaiming a theory which isn't backed up and you can't argue for why it is true. I understand that there will be some sort of irritation or whatever. I always invite people to argue any points I make, why? Because if I am wrong and then corrected I have emerged the wiser.

**Phased** · 10-12-2012, 12:59 PM

I'm calling this on both ends please stop.
Sword for me, thank you
Best

**marcus300** · 10-12-2012, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

It's not about who is right or wrong, it's about the truth and what data supports.

If you are proclaiming a theory which isn't backed up and you can't argue for why it is true. I understand that there will be some sort of irritation or whatever. I always invite people to argue any points I make, why? Because if I am wrong and then corrected I have emerged the wiser.

There are very few studies conducted on bodybuilders using the amounts of steroids we use to cycle. A lot of the times there are always contradicting studies what say the complete opposite anyway. Your a 25yrs old kid with 2 years worth of cycle experience under your belt who follows around Bill Roberts copying and pasting his material. When you have spent the time on forums listening to the younger members and spoke in detail to endo's regarding this subject you will get a better understanding instead of searching for studies on the subject on mice or sheep. Ive also worked with many younger BB's yrs ago which IMHO there are more who suffer with issue post cycle than ones who don't, even my endo says its out of control. Even you suffer from ED from hormonal imbalance so someone told me which is very usually for someone your age but lets forget about your limpness and lets agree to disagree.You give your advice and I will give mine and everything will be fine but I am sure one day the hard facts will hit you ( sorry no pun intended) when you age a little and experience more than just a couple of yrs worth of cycling.

Now I am sorry but I am going to leave you alone now because I find you a complete imbecile of the highest order

**jimmyinkedup** · 10-12-2012, 01:36 PM

Walking on the "phased" edge
phased blades
phased stubble

Get it

**Capebuffalo** · 10-12-2012, 02:01 PM

KaPow Bam Zing Whap

**jimmyinkedup** · 10-12-2012, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

I am pretty adamant about not insulting somebody personally especially in a discussion, I think it proves lack of self-control and knowledge on the topic at hand. I haven't said anything about Marcus300's character and I usually just look at what message is posted and not what their title under the name is. Unless it is MD

The funny thing is that along with insulting me personally he included a lot of other respectable people in that their opinion is congruent with mine. Also, Swifto's many posts include studies done on animals, that is how science is done. Matt had a great post as well based on his knowledge are you discrediting him as well? I am sorry I offended anybody but I am merely stating my opinion and ideas.

The most humorous thing is that NOBODY touched on any of my key arguments nor ideas. The only rebuttal was that "you are a kid" or "you read too many studies".

I agree that AAS can hurt youth before they are 25. It is stretching it far though to claim that their HPTA needs to mature and most data I can find supports the opposite. So if I were to question something which lacks any logical or scientific information, I get bashed on my age. I have seen this in other threads too where one person's post go unread and repeating the same thing over and over again is done. Read through my posts and argue the points I make. That is discussion, not pointing the finger and saying "you are too young".

Look I know you from another board and im going to tell you straight up you come off as arrogant and condescending to people here that have earned respect via years of input effort and work on this board. Now I'm not saying thats your intention , but I am saying that is the perception. Do with it what you will.

As far as data supporting the opposite ..how can it possibly exist? If peak testosterone output is around age 25 , and someone shuts down the hpta prior to that , how do you know where they MIGHT have been? Do they come back into clinical range faster than older men? Perhaps ...but dont you think they should given a 22 yr old has double the test levels of a 40 yr old? Proportionally they may recover exactly the same. Look we will prob never know for sure but given the fact that we will never know what the endogenous T levels of that 22 yr old may have been had the hpta not be shut down before peak test output was reached ...there is no way one can say they recover better.
I find it ironic that all this going back and forth and ultimately you agree that there are prudent reasons not to cycle at these younger ages anyway.

**Sworder** · 10-12-2012, 03:02 PM

My intention is to try to discuss a topic - How do steroids at a young age really effect hormones later in life?

Previous to my other arguments why maturation doesn't affect testosterone levels later on in life is because testosterone levels do not follow a linear curve through out life. There will be certain effects which impede your natural testosterone levels. Obesity will suppress natural testosterone levels while development of the HPTA. So lets say that 15 year old Charlie is weighing 300 pounds his testosterone levels will be inhibited by his BMI and suppressed "naturally". I believe data supports the testosterone levels being suppressed by about 30-50% something like that. I could pull a study but clearly the topic at hand isn't even being discussed. So if obesity can suppress the HPTA to achieve what "natural" levels should be then and when the inhibition is removed(obesity) then the repressed levels will increase. So my thinking is that if AAS induced suppression is a reality before the age of 25 then testosterone levels should be able to return to normal function as well.

This example is one that in my opinion shows that suppression doesn't effect hormones later in life.

The other example I had was that underdeveloped genitalia have been "fixed" and although there was problems in early development "normal" testosterone levels can be achieved later on in life despite this great set back.

The next example is that females have their axis as well which gets suppressed. The HPGA, when taking birth control will get suppressed to prevent pregnancy. I don't understand if the HPGA can be suppressed at 18 and this is considered "safe" presuming that the doctors are doing it. Worthy of note, birth control for women isn't 100% safe for the same reasons HPTA suppression isn't 100% safe; not talking about before 25.. In general.

"How do you know where their testosterone levels might have been?" They usually just compare levels at certain ages and make educated guesses in regards to previous testosterone/LH/FSH levels as well as taking in consideration all other vitals BMI and race as well.

Yes, I agree that we might never know exactly the causation to it. What we can do is eliminate certain hypothesis which the answer seems unlikely to be; and narrow it down from there.

@Marcus300 It's not about the amount of steroids you are doing; it's about the disturbance of the HPTA function. If all theories considered then that would mean that the AAS does direct tissue damage or sorts. Since you are shutting down the HPTA you aren't exhausting it. I have covered this already and nobody responded to it. It won't matter how many cycles I have done because these facts will always remain. I don't try to substantiate an argument on experience as I have never claimed to have any at all. I am not disputing that young guys are immortal. I am just saying that the "maturation" until 25 is unsupported and false. You claim to speak in-depth to your endo but can't iterate a reason besides it being delicate. Which I agree upon, but not in the sense you are talking about. If you actually read through my posts you will see I have valid points and that may be why nobody has even touched on my actual arguments. I have a lot of respect for you as I have read many of your posts and I know you have tons of experience. I seem to have a habit of unconditionally debating anything regardless of their previous posts.

I am saying that HPTA suppression at any age is considered a risk. I wouldn't personally recommend for anybody to cycle unless they were willing to sacrifice their HPTA, regardless of age. I am not disputing that under age 25 shouldn't cycle, what I am discussing is the causes people give for not doing it. If this were a discussion then my points would be attacked rather than my persona.

If somebody wishes to actually discuss this topic which I have consistently trying to do I would be happy to further it. The only thing that seems congruent is flaming me for asking a perfectly logical question and perhaps breaking down an argument too harshly.

I am fully aware that it may seem disrespectful or arrogant but I am very passionate about discussing and learning more. The thing I have learned from this thread is that people do not wish to discuss, rather attack me personally which I have not done. That isn't very typical for me to do as I can stand on one side of the debate and keep my composure and if overwhelming facts or logic is thrown at me I will admit my initial theory was wrong. It's very simple for me but not everybody is as humble or willing to admit they may be wrong. It is going way past having a discussion at this point. I honestly do not even know how to respond to personal attacks or continue this discussion.

My only intention is to debate and discuss a topic, if you bring something to the table about the discussion why is it unfair that you actually back it up?

Demote or ban me if you wish but I am not the first to bow to incorrect nor unsupported data.

**OKCity** · 10-12-2012, 03:16 PM

I'll say from personal experience that I took my first test cycle when I was 18, 145 at 5' 10" wanted to grow. I did AI and proper pct, but did get some sides...back hair growth, sporadic acne but seen great gains. Bout 11 pounds kept about 9 of it. But at that age I was still growing...my natural test level were through the roof. And honestly at that age, weight and height...9 pounds wasn't worth it...for me...with the exchange of the sides

**frank13** · 10-12-2012, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Capebuffalo

Wow the new guys seem to be worth every dime.

Marcus has been here a long time and has practical knowledge a little respect would be nice.
Opinions aside.

Originally Posted by Misery13

I agree. I also don't understand how the 2 new kids on the block are already considered knowledgeable members already.....

i second that ^^^

**Matt** · 10-12-2012, 04:16 PM

These are my thoughts on the matter..

As stated earlier in my experience people under the age of 25 seem to recover better than those over the age of 30, however my experience is very limited and i bow down to the experience of people like Marcus. Remember Marcus has been at this for many many more years than most of us and has worked/trained with more youngsters than i ever will. Believe me Marcus doesn't make stories up or tell lies to fit his own agenda, he tells the truth because time and time again he's seen it happen.....
Also remember this, Marcus doesn't advise youngsters not to cycle because it makes him feel good or because he has nothing better to say, he says it because he cares, the very last thing he wants to see is young guy's harming themselves....

We may never know for sure who is right here or who is wrong, as no government is going to start studies for the sake of it, never going to happen...

What i will say is this, and i know we all agree that some people under the age of 25 don't recover and this is where the "mentally ready point comes in"...

If your 40 and cycle and you don't bounce back then like thousands of others the likely hood of having children is diminished and your more than likely going to be on trt for your remaining days, not the end of the world. If this same thing happens to you at 19 then thats a seriously depressing thought... There are guy's now that would do anything possible to go back in time and not cycle when they did, before their life even started....

Sworder i hope you continue to post as you have some interesting theories and your obviously passionate about bbing and aas usage, please stick around but always keep an open mind......

Just my thoughts...

**Times Roman** · 10-12-2012, 06:19 PM

the amazing thing to me is we go through this discussion, iteration after iteration, every six weeks or so. the position is only attacked by those under 25 it seems.

I remember when i was a kid, and thought drinking when I was high school age was appropriate. Now that I am older, it seems very clear to me why that aint such a good idea......

**Swifto** · 10-12-2012, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder;620***6

Demote or ban me if you wish but I am not the first to bow to incorrect nor unsupported data.

"Incorrect or unsupported" because none has been posted yet? You come to very eronous conclusions.

You're not going to find data on young pubserscent males taking steroids and studying their HPTA maturation/effects/recovery - so you come to the warped conclusion, "its all nonsense as their isnt data". You sometimes lack even a basic understanding of logic.

In my 8 or so years here, I have dealt with hundreds if not thousands of newbies who are sub 23-22, done one cycle, with PCT and now have a total testosterone level of 100-300 and are siffering from hypogonadism. So becasue their is no science "supporting" that, you come to the conclusion it can't exist. You can get caught up in studies on animals your entire life and the reason you do it currently is because you lack personal experience. I did it, I was in your shows after 2 cycles and relied heavily on "study this", "study that" - I still do as this is the basis of our understanding of steroids. But after personal experience, you will learn that studies are not the be all and end all and because there isnt a perfect study proving your point.

If something is "unsupported" it does not mean the theory is wrong/right - its "unsupported" - yet you seem to jump (very quickly) to use that to support your argument(s), even when "personal experience" states otherwise. You can be a man of science and still take into account personal experience, even though its uncontrolled and full of variables and if you dont, your more of an idiot than I thought.

**gymfu** · 10-12-2012, 10:28 PM

Sworder, you are wrong.

I'm walking prof using hormones at a young age causes low testosterone and an inability to recover normal testosterone levels after a cycle much later in life. When I first started bbing at 19 I tried using everything under the sun that was legal thinking if its legal it must be safe. I used androstene and any thing else my buddy's were trying.

When I got to about 30 I started to look at using AAS and I found out that the legal stuff is HPTA damaging as well. I had my testosterone checked soon after and it came back a little over 350ng/dl, low for a 30 year old with a clean diet and excersizing regularly for the past 11 years and obtains from alcohol completely.

I never was able to get my testosterone above 170 after my first cycle and 110 after my second and I got a lot of good advise here on agresive PCT nothing worked.

I'm convinced my HPTA system was damaged from pro hormones and androstene.

**Sworder** · 10-12-2012, 10:40 PM

Thanks Swifto! I appreciate your words of wisdom and support.

@Gymfu I have highlighted many times what I am arguing. I do believe the HPTA can suffer pre-25. I don't believe in the whole "pre-25" rule about maturation and delicacy.

**gymfu** · 10-12-2012, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

Thanks Swifto! I appreciate your words of wisdom and support.

@Gymfu I have highlighted many times what I am arguing. I do believe the HPTA can suffer pre-25. I don't believe in the whole "pre-25" rule about maturation and delicacy.

I don't understand the difference between the two?

**Sworder** · 10-12-2012, 11:32 PM

I don't believe the HPTA is more susceptible to damage pre-25 because of the under-developed and maturation theory. I believe that it can still get damaged, but not that it is more vulnerable.

**stpete** · 10-12-2012, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

I don't believe the HPTA is more susceptible to damage pre-25 because of the under-developed and maturation theory. I believe that it can still get damaged, but not that it is more vulnerable.

That sentence is a contraction of itself.

**warmouth** · 10-12-2012, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Misery13

I agree. I also don't understand how the 2 new kids on the block are already considered knowledgeable members already.....

**Sworder** · 10-12-2012, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by stpete

That sentence is a contraction of itself.

I even put "more" in italics to emphasize.

I am saying there is no fine line between age 25 and other ages. Does that make sense?

**Lunk1** · 10-12-2012, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Misery13

I agree. I also don't understand how the 2 new kids on the block are already considered knowledgeable members already.....

Google!

**stpete** · 10-12-2012, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Sworder

I even put "more" in italics to emphasize.

I am saying there is no fine line between age 25 and other ages. Does that make sense?

If you needed a sure win. And were playing the horsies. Needed to come home w/some sort of money....Would you bet the 5:1 or the 50:1?

**MickeyKnox** · 10-12-2012, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Misery13

I agree. I also don't understand how the 2 new kids on the block are already considered knowledgeable members already.....

im glad someone else said that.

Originally Posted by stpete

That sentence is a contraction of itself.

aaaaaaaaaaaagreed!

this has been clearly explained already. Marcus is right Sworder, youre a broken contradictory record. im sorry, not trying g to flame you but it's actually true if you take a moment to re-read this thread.

**Sworder** · 10-12-2012, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by stpete

If you needed a sure win. And were playing the horsies. Needed to come home w/some sort of money....Would you bet the 5:1 or the 50:1?

Answer is obvious, but if relating to if a 20 year old would do a cycle and a 50 year old. Which one I would bet my money on to recover to pre-cycle levels? I would put my money on the 20 year old any day.

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

this has been clearly explained already. Marcus is right Sworder, youre a broken contradictory record. im sorry, not trying g to flame you but it's actually true if you take a moment to re-read this thread.

It wouldn't be considered a flame if you could please post in a manner that shows me where I am wrong. Or at least come up with a rebuttal of any sorts. I don't believe I have contradicted myself but I may have confused people. If you wish further explanation I would be happy to provide that. Why do you think nobody has actually touched on the subject at hand and instead just keep repeating the same thing?

**warmouth** · 10-12-2012, 11:50 PM

I have read every word of this entire thread. When I first joined this site, I had a ton of respect for Marcus. When he posted his pic in his avatar, I had even MORE respect. But after reading this thread, I now feel it has become a man crush

Thank you Marcus for showing us that actual experience far outweighs testing small amounts on animals. Absolute great read and I still will only listen to the VETS on this board, as I prefer actual experience over research and studies I could find myself on the internet. Thank you X 10,000! AndSwifto...............I might be getting that same feeling as well. WATCH OUT!

**warmouth** · 10-12-2012, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by lunk1

google!

lol!

**Lunk1** · 10-12-2012, 11:52 PM

I have not had anything to do with this thread but I have something to say just the same (I know I know..imagine that

).

This thread already appears to have cost someone a demotion in status. While I am not saying that person cares about that, it's obvious that there is and will continue to be a disagreement on this subject. If one side has not been able to convince the other side by this time in over 100 posts, then it probably isn't going to happen. There are Mods and Vets involved in this thread and imo it is not serving any purpose at this point than causing an argument.

I have not seen the blaten disrespect that I have seen some post about, only a strong opinion that is opposite of some other strong opinions. Points have been made and it doesn't seem as if anyone has anything new or concrete to bring to the table so...maybe it's time to lock this bad boy up before something worse than a demotion occurs.

There..said my peace

**warmouth** · 10-12-2012, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

im glad someone else said that.

Still scratching my head............. AND, ditto. He can take the heat for what we were all thinking

**warmouth** · 10-12-2012, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

I have not had anything to do with this thread but I have something to say just the same (I know I know..imagine that

).

This thread already appears to have cost someone a demotion in status. While I am not saying that person cares about that, it's obvious that there is and will continue to be a disagreement on this subject. If one side has not been able to convince the other side by this time in over 100 posts, then it probably isn't going to happen. There are Mods and Vets involved in this thread and imo it is not serving any purpose at this point than causing an argument.

I have not seen the blaten disrespect that I have seen some post about, only a strong opinion that is opposite of some other strong opinions. Points have been made and it doesn't seem as if anyone has anything new or concrete to bring to the table so...maybe it's time to lock this bad boy up before something worse than a demotion occurs.

There..said my peace

Where you going with this Lunk???? Ah yes.

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 12:01 AM

If you care to read my posts you will see where my opinion has been stated. You will also read in the other peoples posts only one rebuttal which has been paraphrased over and over with lack of detail and explanation. I stand fast and am happy to discuss this topic if you wish to actually discuss it. I also haven't even posted any studies in this thread, I have no clue where you are getting all this from.. You can not have "experience" in HPTA maturation LMAO. It's a theory which has a grand fallacy which I have pointed out.

If you have any thing of substrate please present it without resorting to vituperation.

**warmouth** · 10-13-2012, 12:12 AM

Marcus Rocks!!! Thats 3 exclaimation points! Oops, make that 4, and deserving of 5.

**Lunk1** · 10-13-2012, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sworder

If you care to read my posts you will see where my opinion has been stated. You will also read in the other peoples posts only one rebuttal which has been paraphrased over and over with lack of detail and explanation. I stand fast and am happy to discuss this topic if you wish to actually discuss it. I also haven't even posted any studies in this thread, I have no clue where you are getting all this from.. You can not have "experience" in HPTA maturation LMAO. It's a theory which has a grand fallacy which I have pointed out.

If you have any thing of substrate please present it without resorting to vituperation.

Sworder...one of the marks of a mature and smart man is knowing when to let something go. I believe you to be both of these things. I am not arguing any of your beliefs, theories or facts. But wouldn't you agree that at this point...it's seems like an exercise in futility?

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

Sworder...one of the marks of a mature and smart man is knowing when to let something go. I am not arguing any of your beliefs, theories or facts. But wouldn't you agree that at this point...it's seems like an exercise in futility?

Definitely, the thread should have been locked a long time ago. Everybody is coming in throwing their 2 cents in, so I feel it would be rude not to respond.

**Lunk1** · 10-13-2012, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Sworder

Definitely, the thread should have been locked a long time ago. Everybody is coming in throwing their 2 cents in, so I feel it would be rude not to respond.

Their is a point where it is a discussion and a point where it is an argument. That line was crossed a page and a half ago. There is really no need to respond to anything at this point after all that's been said and done. Would't you agree??? (You do not even need to feel compeled to answer that lol)

**Lunk1** · 10-13-2012, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Sworder

Definitely, the thread should have been locked a long time ago. Everybody is coming in throwing their 2 cents in, so I feel it would be rude not to respond.

Let's just close this chapter and go grab a cold beer...still half hour before bar closing here lol

**Sworder** · 10-13-2012, 12:30 AM

LMAO I am going to the gym.

Have a good night!

**Phased** · 10-13-2012, 12:36 AM

Kids are asleep and there is some shitty wesley snipes movie on TNT. Oh joy TGIF

**Lunk1** · 10-13-2012, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Phased

Kids are asleep and there is some shitty wesley snipes movie on TNT. Oh joy TGIF

Went and saw Here comes the Boom with the wife tonight. Pretty funny! I bet the buttered popcorn didn't help me hit my macros...maybe the fat lol

**Phased** · 10-13-2012, 12:44 AM

I don't even know the name of this movie, he is trying to prove the president killed someome. It's hard to take Wesley serious and be a police officer. I'm more pissed I'm still watching this..fail