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  1. #1
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Low dose testsoterone needed?

    When you run your "low" dose testosterone , say 250mg/week along with trenbolone . Do you still use an AI?

    Would you think that it would better to only rely on hCG for testosterone/estrogen supplementation so you don't have to include an AI?

    This way you don't have to spend money on an AI & testosterone and have your body do the whole "taking one drug to suppress the other drug's effect" thing

    Opinions and new ways of thinking more than welcome!

    Title should spell testosterone, not testsoterone Somebody feels really stupid right now.
    Last edited by Sworder; 11-12-2012 at 07:47 PM.

  2. #2
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    I would always include an AI with low dose trest for the simple fact that 250mg test, or lower, will raise your estrogen levels. Now, add tren to that and its a no brainer for me. I would be counting on the AI to not only control my estrogen, but my possible prolactin issues as well.

  3. #3
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    What about dropping the testosterone and AI completely? So that you are getting closer to physiological levels of testosterone and estrogen by relying on hCG only. 250mg testosterone and hCG will raise your estrogen higher than it is supposed to be so yes it is a no brainer, take an AI!

  4. #4
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    Do you mean hCG and tren with no AI or test? I can't imagine that whats your referring too, i think i'm confused now bro.

  5. #5
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Yes, hCG and tren only. Having the AI on hand IF you do get estrogen related problems. It sounds weird right? HCG and tren cycle

  6. #6
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    Yes, while I would never suggest doing it. I believe if you ran essentialy a tren only cycle even with HCG then you could forego the AI since tren doesnt convert. However...prolatcin CAN still be an issue from tren without test being included!

    I would never suggest this as the benifit of NO test does not come close to to outweighing the benifit of including test!

  7. #7
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    You are getting testosterone from the hCG . HCG monotherapy(1000iu/week) for TRT is used by conservative guys that want to be in normal ranges. With the hCG you would be getting normal testosterone levels , adding more testosterone is what puts you at supra ranges and that is why you have to supplement with an AI.

  8. #8
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder
    You are getting testosterone from the hCG. HCG monotherapy(1000iu/week) for TRT is used by conservative guys that want to be in normal ranges. With the hCG you would be getting normal testosterone levels, adding more testosterone is what puts you at supra ranges and that is why you have to supplement with an AI.
    Hmm have you done any research on this at all or just something you're curious about? Because you got me curious

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder View Post
    You are getting testosterone from the hCG. HCG monotherapy(1000iu/week) for TRT is used by conservative guys that want to be in normal ranges. With the hCG you would be getting normal testosterone levels, adding more testosterone is what puts you at supra ranges and that is why you have to supplement with an AI.
    I would be shocked if HCG would provide enough test to offset "shutdown" from the tren ...although tbo I have no idea!

  10. #10
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Can we make this question a thread and see what comes up

  11. #11
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Of course

    It's a working concept that not a lot of people are open to. The idea is to supplement your body and just replace your own testosterone production. Typically we always overshoot it and supplement with hCG (500iu) AND testosterone(250mg). First of all the average male produces around 100mg testosterone/week. So bodybuilders are already doubling that amount, and supplementing with hCG 500iu/week. This leads to elevated estrogen and you have to take an AI. Aromatase inhibitors are bad for you, pretty much all drugs you take have side effects and a main effect. The less drugs you take the better. as more drugs produces more side effects and you have to take a bunch of drugs to combat the effects of one drug.

    The initial idea that people have going is good. To take only replacement dose of testosterone but nobody asks themselves. If I am only taking a replacement dose, why do I need an AI? Doesn't it make sense that you are taking too much then?

    HCG is a great compound and will help recovery immensely. Upping to 1000iu/week will have your endogenous testosterone in the mid range. Which you probably are at right now. This will cut the cost down of your cycle as you don't have to purchase an AI nor do you have to purchase testosterone.

    Personally I am so sick and tired of testosterone I am not running that compound anymore. I aromatase way too much and that leads to gyno and I have to run letrozole just to combat the aromatase. I have found hCG to be a great compound to supply the body with testosterone and estrogen. I would always recommend having an AI on hand the first couple times around and do lab work so you can fine tune your levels. I already know how my body reacts so I have stopped running an AI.

    So dumbing it down: Stop using too much testosterone in your cycles! If you are needing an AI you are taking too much testosterone hence why your estrogen is high. If you are running trenbolone run hCG along with it @ 1000iu/week this will help your recovery as you are making sure your testicles are getting enough stimulation and hCG produces testosterone by itself.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    I would be shocked if HCG would provide enough test to offset "shutdown" from the tren...although tbo I have no idea!
    I don't understand what "shutdown" you are referring to?

    HCG will keep your testicles in the HPTA from getting shutdown or atrophy. The hypo and pituitary are going to get shutdown regardless.

  13. #13
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    Dont you believe even with Tren your still benifiting from the adrogen effects of even a low dose test.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    Dont you believe even with Tren your still benifiting from the adrogen effects of even a low dose test.
    Well that's the thing, it's not "low dose" it's high!! I would rather increase the tren by 50mg/week and drop the 250mg testosterone for anabolic effect. This way you don't have to be messing around with the ups and downs of estrogen management.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder View Post
    I don't understand what "shutdown" you are referring to?

    HCG will keep your testicles in the HPTA from getting shutdown or atrophy. The hypo and pituitary are going to get shutdown regardless.
    Thats my point..I would be concerned that HCG alone would not be strong enough to combat the effects of the shutdown of the HPTA caused by tren . I guess I am saying that I am not completely convinced that tren wouldnt essentialy over power the lowere test providing ability of HCG!

  16. #16
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder

    I don't understand what "shutdown" you are referring to?

    HCG will keep your testicles in the HPTA from getting shutdown or atrophy. The hypo and pituitary are going to get shutdown regardless.
    What if you ran HCG alone what would the results be? And why are you running that with tren ? Which tren

    What is the HCG and tren doing for you then and what are you trying to accomplish?

    Are you currently running this cycle and if so what are your results

  17. #17
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    Tell ya what...you jump on that train and run tren NO lowere than 500mg week with just HCG and let us ALL know the effects. Me..I'm going to keep using test to help with lethargy and ED. If someone is worried about the cost of an AI and a bit of test they should not be cycling!

  18. #18
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    We are on different pages.

    HCG will increase testosterone production to "normal levels" by acting like LH(which is from the pituitary).

    Trenbolone will shutdown the hypothalamus and pituitary not the leydig cells in the testicles. I think I get what you mean, you don't think that HCG is strong enough to achieve normal testosterone levels ?

    Trenbolone doesn't have an interaction with HCG.

  19. #19
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1
    Tell ya what...you jump on that train and run tren NO lowere than 500mg week with just HCG and let us ALL know the effects. Me..I'm going to keep using test to help with lethargy and ED. If someone is worried about the cost of an AI and a bit of test they should not be cycling!
    What is lethargy and ed and why do you choose test

  20. #20
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    Tell ya what...you jump on that train and run tren NO lowere than 500mg week with just HCG and let us ALL know the effects. Me..I'm going to keep using test to help with lethargy and ED. If someone is worried about the cost of an AI and a bit of test they should not be cycling!
    Been on the train for a while my friend

  21. #21
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder

    Been on the train for a while my friend
    Sworder can you answer my questions please bra

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheifjuana View Post
    What if you ran HCG alone what would the results be? And why are you running that with tren ? Which tren

    What is the HCG and tren doing for you then and what are you trying to accomplish?

    Are you currently running this cycle and if so what are your results
    HCG alone won't give you much. That is replacing your own testosterone production only.

    HCG is providing you with testosterone, and tren is busting its ass building muscle.

    Using too much testosterone will lead you to have to use an AI and that is best to be avoided. Gyno becomes a problem because people are using too much testosterone and all the other high estrogen side effects.

    ED is erectile dysfunction and lethargy is being tired. These are signs of low estrogen, trenbolone is a strong enough androgen to increase your libido and energy a lot better than testosterone.

    What does "bra" stand for? Brother Really? Answer ???

  23. #23
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    I guess my confusion stems from why people use too much testosterone when running trenbolone and subject themselves to estrogen problems which you constantly hear about.

  24. #24
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder

    HCG alone won't give you much. That is replacing your own testosterone production only.

    HCG is providing you with testosterone, and tren is busting its ass building muscle.

    Using too much testosterone will lead you to have to use an AI and that is best to be avoided. Gyno becomes a problem because people are using too much testosterone and all the other high estrogen side effects.

    ED is erectile dysfunction and lethargy is being tired. These are signs of low estrogen, trenbolone is a strong enough androgen to increase your libido and energy a lot better than testosterone.

    What does "bra" stand for? Brother Really? Answer ???
    It stands for bro, brother whatever. Didn't realize you meant thay ED lol. So you are currently taking this and don't need a AI? Answer.

  25. #25
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder
    I guess my confusion stems from why people use too much testosterone when running trenbolone and subject themselves to estrogen problems which you constantly hear about.
    Understand completely. I'm curious in running this cycle, do you recommend still to start a cycle of test or is this fine to start for your first cycle

  26. #26
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Ah okay, you learn something new everyday.

    Yes, I am. I don't need an AI because my natural testosterone is being replaced, not overshooting it like everybody else does. Remember that I seemingly know what I am doing, I wouldn't recommend anybody to randomly try this. If you have questions feel free to PM me and bloodwork would be needed to control and see where your tT and estradiol is at.

    My main point is again: Why are you taking an AI when you are taking a "replacement dose" of testosterone as it is supposed to be?

  27. #27
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheifjuana View Post
    Understand completely. I'm curious in running this cycle, do you recommend still to start a cycle of test or is this fine to start for your first cycle
    No, never start your first cycle with trenbolone . You seem too young and lack knowledge about steroids to even try a basic testosterone cycle. This is something you may want to implement way down the road if you notice your e2 skyrockets and you are struggling with managing it. Last cycle I ran 2mg letrozole /day. That is not normal, this is why I started drifting to this idea.

    You wrote in a thread about injecting an oil from a plant to get high.

    My posts are merely to open peoples eyes that something may be off here. There is something wrong with what we are doing if we say we want replacement dose and still have to use an AI. Unless you run an AI with your natural t production too, which I doubt.
    Last edited by Sworder; 11-12-2012 at 11:35 PM.

  28. #28
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder

    No, never start your first cycle with trenbolone. You seem too young and lack knowledge about steroids to even try a basic testosterone cycle. This is something you may want to implement way down the road if you notice your e2 skyrockets and you are struggling with managing it. Last cycle I ran 2mg letrozole/day. That is not normal, this is why I started drifting to this idea.
    Almost 22, researching gear and seeing which show the best results vs the sides. I've just read where it might not be enough to keep up with tren is this true

  29. #29
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder

    No, never start your first cycle with trenbolone . You seem too young and lack knowledge about steroids to even try a basic testosterone cycle. This is something you may want to implement way down the road if you notice your e2 skyrockets and you are struggling with managing it. Last cycle I ran 2mg letrozole /day. That is not normal, this is why I started drifting to this idea.

    You wrote in a thread about injecting an oil from a plant to get high.

    My posts are merely to open peoples eyes that something may be off here. There is something wrong with what we are doing if we say we want replacement dose and still have to use an AI. Unless you run an AI with your natural t production too, which I doubt.
    No I was reading where you could make your own gear. It stated to use any oil, so I choose cannabis oil. The protein is the strongest protein on earth so why wouldn't the oil benefit you and it has thc in it to recover from, more aesthetic control from nerves. Quite amazing. When I read that gear is made from oil it fascinates me. THC oil is an ancient steroid !

  30. #30
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    Trenbolone in my opinion is best suited for when you are above your genetic potential and you need a strong drug to grow more. If you are still growing using testosterone why switch?

    Honestly the only reason I mentioned your age was because your mindset seemed young. Had you been thirty I would have said the same thing. Just because you turn 25 doesn't mean you should do steroids . You need to be dedicated to the sport and the things which may result because of AAS use should be in your plans well.

  31. #31
    warmouth is offline Productive Member
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    I seriously am finding this thread beyond interesting. I know for a FACT that for me, armidex has my cholesterol levels very high. I know it hadsomething to do with the test as well, but almost 400, with terrible triglycerides and liver enzemes, I would attibute alot of that with the AI. Now, I am not saying for anyone not to take an AI. I am only saying in my case, unless I can find legit Aromasin , I wont run an AI at the usual doseages. I take 125mgs of Cyp weekly for TRT, and use liquidex about 2x a week, and small doses at that. When I decide to run another cycle, I will had the AI on hand,but will use nolva at 10 or 20 mgs daily and nothing else as an experiment. From all the evidence we have collectively brought forth the past couple of months, this is just a decision I am making for myself. Now IF the HCG works, that would be an interesting find from you Sworder. Here is what I am thinking on the subject. I have a skin condition aside from using AAS. I have cystic acne on my back anda lesser extent on my chest. It has plagued me since puberty. I am 30 now. I am embarrassed to take off my shirt in public and it is seriously starting to cause emotional and phycological depression to the point that I canthardly bring myself to take my shirt off in front of my wife without feeling ashamed. When using testosterone , it gets 10x worse and the cysts are very noticeable, even with a tight t shirt on. Nothing works for me. So again, I am thinking for myself, I will always run test, but at 125mgs at most weekly, and use another compound that doesnt convert to use as the primary. I dont know if Ill use tren , as it still scares me, but I will be in search of another compound to run on my "normal" cycles. I havent ruled out Deca , but libido issues scare me with that. Possibly something like testP @ 25mgs and NPP @ 100mgs EOD, or the same dose testP and Tren @ 75mgs EOD. The acne is my biggest problem and is getting bad enough that I have had all I can take. I think Test @ 100-125mgs weekly is perfectly fine, and me personally, dont use HCG due to me being on TRT. And, with test being 100-125mgs weekly, and AI, in theory, could be bypassed. I know for most TRT patients @ 75mgs weekly dont need a thing. I just have to research the best AAS that doesnt aromatise and keeps acne at bay. Interesting theory.

  32. #32
    warmouth is offline Productive Member
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    I would like to add. 125mgs of test had helpedme preserve my gainsand have not lost anything (weight wise) since finishing up months ago. I have lost some shape, but I am only getting to train 1 or 2 times a week thepast month or so and my diet has been off a bit. Work sucks, especially when you cant keep employees.

  33. #33
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Yes, these AI's are not good for your health. People do not realize this, and unfortunately you do because you have suffered from it! When running trenbolone you shouldn't need testosterone for additional growth. It can do the job pretty damn well on itself. I understand we want supraphysiological levels of androgens, but if we choose what compounds to use we can avoid supra levels of estrogen or having to reverse those effects.

    Your traps has grown a lot! Shoulder looking bigger too!

  34. #34
    Cheifjuana is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder
    Trenbolone in my opinion is best suited for when you are above your genetic potential and you need a strong drug to grow more. If you are still growing using testosterone why switch?

    Honestly the only reason I mentioned your age was because your mindset seemed young. Had you been thirty I would have said the same thing. Just because you turn 25 doesn't mean you should do steroids. You need to be dedicated to the sport and the things which may result because of AAS use should be in your plans well.
    No I'm almost 22 not 25. If I ask a question about gear why do you insist I'm going to buy it online tonight? Im researching which are best for the next couple of years and deciding which route to take on them if any. Relax but thanks for your concern, bra.

    Switch when I'm out of my genetic limit? After years of diet. I know ;]

    Anyways, what were your results

  35. #35
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    Hmmmm interesting subject and theory but my understanding (limited) is even though Tren is not test your body will still see it as Test and shut down. Even with HCG it does keep the boys (balls) working didn't think it would make you produce test if your body is in shut down mode so to speak. I know it will stimulate your production but you are not shut down, only producing a lower than normal/desired amount. I dont think the HCG can trick your natural test production to turn back on. It would have to trick your body into thinking there is no other form of test/tren/deca /etc being added to your system.

    I may be way off but this is how I imagine it.

  36. #36
    warmouth is offline Productive Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder View Post
    Yes, these AI's are not good for your health. People do not realize this, and unfortunately you do because you have suffered from it! When running trenbolone you shouldn't need testosterone for additional growth. It can do the job pretty damn well on itself. I understand we want supraphysiological levels of androgens, but if we choose what compounds to use we can avoid supra levels of estrogen or having to reverse those effects.

    Your traps has grown a lot! Shoulder looking bigger too!
    Haha. Thanks. I had to post that for Lunk, since all hedoes is make fun of my traps . On a serious note though, I like Atominis Idea of the very low dose of test in order to eliminate an AI. Since the majority think progesterine is a concern with tren , why not just use Caber, which is safer and has a much better side effect! I say it is good to have a strong AI on hand in case of a gyno flare up, but the aromatization is the only concern for using an AI. And sice the Test is the only aromatizing compound, use it extremely low and still reap the benefits and do without the AI. This is my theory, and I think that if many were honest, they would agree. I am not trying to step on toes, as I am learning all of this myself. But fo me, I will run low test and keep and AI on hand. If I run high test, Ill use nolva, 10mgs daily, and see how I react. AI will be on hand of course. But the side effects of an AI go totally unnoticed, unless it is too high of a dose. But for people running them daily or EOD, it can be detrimental to their health, and they will literally have no idea they are having problems. Too many people out there thinking about appearances to guage their side effects and are cluesless about what is going on with their hearts, kidneys, liver, blood count, BP, etc. It just make sense for me, to try to refrain from an AI because I have seen first hand the bad effects of what they are capable of. Now, if I had a trustworthy source of aromasin , I might think differently. But nolva has been show to help lipid profiles, and I dont know of a single AI that does this. I know it might hamper some gains, but they would be minimal. I say that if you like Tren , run it. I would also say to at least run some testm unless you can prove your theory. A good friend of mine has ran several tre only cycles and his libido skyrocketed. BUT..........he actually had "roid rage " and couldnt control his temper. Otherwise he has always been laid back and pleasant to be around(not on tren only). In my opinion, if someone is using a compound as strong as tren , testosterone should not be used to promote growth at all. Too many androgens and too many sides. Use the test for normal functions and let the tren do the rest.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder View Post
    Yes, these AI's are not good for your health. People do not realize this, and unfortunately you do because you have suffered from it! When running trenbolone you shouldn't need testosterone for additional growth. It can do the job pretty damn well on itself. I understand we want supraphysiological levels of androgens, but if we choose what compounds to use we can avoid supra levels of estrogen or having to reverse those effects.

    Your traps has grown a lot! Shoulder looking bigger too!
    I know you are a very knowledgeable member so I am puzzled as I have read from everyone on here trt dr's that an ai is a must with a trt dose for a lot of people. It seems a lot of knowledgable people on here all use an ai while on their trt dose. What kind of long term efects can an ai casue?

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