Test cycle, when does use cross the line to abuse?

[Lunk1]

While the law may state what abuse is, the law itself is not the end all be all to defining something. The legality or illegality of something is not what makes it right or wrong or in this case is not what truly defines use versus abuse.

When it comes to steroids, look at this example. For decades Parabolan was used successfully in numerous therapeutic treatment plans in Europe. However, during this time it was not approved for human use in the U.S. Does this mean everyone who used it in Europe and legally so was abusing it because U.S. law deemed it as abuse?

Let's seperate medical doses and legal use from cycling BB quantities. Would you agree that anyone who uses quantities greater than what might be prescribed for medical conditions is abusing AAS???

[Metalject]

Let's seperate medical doses and legal use from cycling BB quantities. Would you agree that anyone who uses quantities greater than what might be prescribed for medical conditions is abusing AAS???

No, I wouldn't, not if we're talking about U.S. law. U.S. guidelines are based on what is deemed justified by the government, not what may be deemed justified by a medical professional. For example, you could find a doctor who wanted to prescribe Nandrolone to a patient for a specific reason, but if this is not an approved reason by law then he can't prescribe it, regardless of how beneficial the physician believes it may be. While it may be a bit of a stretch, the steroid laws in the U.S. are almost akin to Soviet law, the government deems what is best and approved. And while I said it may be a stretch, it's not a stretch by much.

Then of course you have to get into the issue of the vast majority of physicians considering any steroid use abuse. For crying out loud, countless physicians still consider TRT level use abuse, so does that make it abuse?

I have to stand by my original statement, the dosing does not matter, this is not what determines abuse. Abuse is when you cause yourself harm, that's abuse. Even then I believe people should be free to choose for themselves. If you're legally allowed to eat at McDonalds 14 times a day you should be legally allowed to take all the anabolic steroids you want so as long as your use affects no one else in a negative way. As long as your use does not infringe on the liberty of another. Granted, in such cases, that very well may be abuse, depending on the situation, but the individual should still be free to make up his own mind. And yes, I realize I went off topic with that last little bit, but in my opinion it all fits together.

If I want to take 5g of AAS a week and it doesn't hurt me (not saying it wouldn't hurt me) then this is not abuse. Regardless of the dose, if it does cause me harm, I should revamp and regroup. If I continue to cause myself harm, then this and only this is abuse. But again, I am free to decide what I do.

[Lunk1]

No, I wouldn't, not if we're talking about U.S. law. U.S. guidelines are based on what is deemed justified by the government, not what may be deemed justified by a medical professional. For example, you could find a doctor who wanted to prescribe Nandrolone to a patient for a specific reason, but if this is not an approved reason by law then he can't prescribe it, regardless of how beneficial the physician believes it may be. While it may be a bit of a stretch, the steroid laws in the U.S. are almost akin to Soviet law, the government deems what is best and approved. And while I said it may be a stretch, it's not a stretch by much.

Then of course you have to get into the issue of the vast majority of physicians considering any steroid use abuse. For crying out loud, countless physicians still consider TRT level use abuse, so does that make it abuse?

I have to stand by my original statement, the dosing does not matter, this is not what determines abuse. Abuse is when you cause yourself harm, that's abuse. Even then I believe people should be free to choose for themselves. If you're legally allowed to eat at McDonalds 14 times a day you should be legally allowed to take all the anabolic steroids you want so as long as your use affects no one else in a negative way. As long as your use does not infringe on the liberty of another. Granted, in such cases, that very well may be abuse, depending on the situation, but the individual should still be free to make up his own mind. And yes, I realize I went off topic with that last little bit, but in my opinion it all fits together.

If I want to take 5g of AAS a week and it doesn't hurt me (not saying it wouldn't hurt me) then this is not abuse. Regardless of the dose, if it does cause me harm, I should revamp and regroup. If I continue to cause myself harm, then this and only this is abuse. But again, I am free to decide what I do.

I believe your rant focused alot on legality and very little on definition of abuse. You keep saying "If it doesn't harm me" but we both know there are health risks that are well documented when it comes to AAS use. By continuing to use larger amounts of hormones than the body needs you increase the chance of those health risks. The only thing you are doing is deciding you are willing to accept those risks for the reward...thats exactly what abuse is. PPL choosing to risk their health for the "reward" of drug use (let's be clear steroids are considered a drug).

Does criminalization play a role...hell yes. I didn't make steroids illegal in the US but they are...so risking jail or prison time so that you can use a drug that either you don't need medicaly or in qauntities that are above prescribed amounts is abuse. We are not debating legalization...we are talking about abuse!

[boxingfan30]

Yes ...I remember you posting that...have you tried an AI to see if your E2 level is high???

I had MI look at my numbers... he didn't think it looked high, but no I have not tried that. I didn't realize it was something that you could do tbh.

[Metalject]

I believe your rant focused alot on legality and very little on definition of abuse. You keep saying "If it doesn't harm me" but we both know there are health risks that are well documented when it comes to AAS use. By continuing to use larger amounts of hormones than the body needs you increase the chance of those health risks. The only thing you are doing is deciding you are willing to accept those risks for the reward...thats exactly what abuse is. PPL choosing to risk their health for the "reward" of drug use (let's be clear steroids are considered a drug).

Does criminalization play a role...hell yes. I didn't make steroids illegal in the US but they are...so risking jail or prison time so that you can use a drug that either you don't need medicaly or in qauntities that are above prescribed amounts is abuse. We are not debating legalization...we are talking about abuse!

So if an individual uses performance level doses of anabolic steroids and doesn't cause himself harm would you still call this abuse just because he used performance doses? And by harm I think it's important we determine what harm is. Things like possible acne or hair loss do not fall into the category of harm IMO. Now if the individual caused himself severe cardiovascular or liver damage, true, this would be harm regardless of what the doses may have been. At the same time, if the individual uses performance level doses and did not cause himself this type of harm, which is possible and far from unrealistic, I don't see how this can be called abuse. There has to be a true damaging effect for something to be labeled as abuse.

When you bring up the issue of legality, although we're not debating legality you are defining any use that is illegal as abuse simply on the basis of illegality. That makes this argument very difficult. If the law changed, would that change your definition of abuse?

[boxingfan30]

I know you guys are having a nice little debate here which is fine and interesting. I should have been a bit more specific in my question, as it is a rather broad range. Obviously, what is abuse to some is not to others. For instance, I have multiple bulging discs, a torn disc, and a crack in my spine. I have refused and will continue to refuse ANY opiate pain killer, or even narcotic... though sometimes it gets so bad I will take a muscle relaxor. Most of the time however, it's just standard OTC pain killers, which IMO work just as well just without the high feeling that I guess helps to relax the body at the same time? I'm not sure. With that said let me ask this differently.

Person 1 has my same issues and symptoms and takes the pill only as needed which would be use (IMO)
Person 2 takes them as also prescribed but on a regular basis as to feel more level and feel less pain all of the time, this is still use.
Person 3 takes them, but this person starts to take 2 every 4 hours, but knows they they can take 2 of them every 4 hours if the pain is severe enough. They TELL themselves it is, though in reality the single dose does indeed work just fine ... abuse on the way to addiction.

A little different from using AAS I agree. However, if I decide to use test, but I want to start at 250 mg's per week because of less possibility of aggression when I know I have this problem at times (without knowing if it is a hormonal issue). For me, I would consider this responsible.

Later I decide that I like the effects and any negative sides are manageable, I decide to take 500 mg's to see how it goes. At that point to me, I am playing with fire IF I am getting my desired results and if my bloodwork shows everything is normal, i'm not putting myself in danger at 250 mg's. However, I don't consider the 500 mg's to be abuse at that point UNLESS I take it and though i'm more aggressive I don't care about the others I may be affecting around me.

So IMO if one is taking 500, 750, or however much some guys here or in general take it's not abuse until you hit that point of doing it regardless of the fact that it's affecting you that could affect others... possibility of death, or severe medical issues, just being to aggressive and making yourself more prone to dangerous violent acts, etc.

I know that the law states that the use of it without a prescrip is indeed illegal. IMO it's stupid to make it that way BUT for the 18 year olds out there, every single of them would be on it and 90% be irresponsible with it. I just think that certain things have shown more promise than just popping an opiate every time something hurts. Use some test for a while and thicken those bones up... maybe it will help and maybe not. It might help likely somewhat when it came to the possibility of injury are least, what good does the opiate do instead of just mask the pain for a few hours? What help has it done in the long term?