Water retention during PCT looking as if I am on cycle!! run an AI? Need help!

**supraman** · 12-23-2012, 08:36 PM

I'm about week 3 into PCT and I'm getting all the tell tale signs of high estrogen like acne, strength and libido loss, face extreme water retention . I took 12.5mg Aromasin yesterday and will plan to do it ED. It hopefully until symptoms decrease- is that a good idea? I would like some advice I know you are not all doctors I just look like I was on cycle and its upsetting me. Thanks

**Lunk1** · 12-23-2012, 08:47 PM

What was your cycle? Acne is caused by hormone fluctuation and of course your test has dropped and your hormones are all over the place right now trying to recover. Strenght loss is most likely diet related as is the bloating. What is your PCT?

**supraman** · 12-23-2012, 08:54 PM

My cycle was a 14 Week Test E
I waited 2 weeks + 3 days then followed this protocol (Ive done extensive research on various forums to find to wait a few days after the 2 weeks of the last pin)
I followed an atypical PCT:

"SubQ injection of triptorelin 100mcg after most of the last and longest
acting AAS is out of your system. For example, if you are only on tren A
and test propionate then you can safely inject the triptorelin 4 days after
the last dose. But if you are on tren, test enanthate and deca then you
have to wait 3-4 weeks after your last dose to inject triptorelin.
Injecting triptorelin too early when AAS levels are still high can make its
use pretty ineffective. Once you have injected the triptorelin, i advise
my patients for the first two weeks to take 100-120mg of toremifene split
twice a day along with 50mg of Clomid twice a day. For week three, reduce
toremifene by half total daily dosage and still split twice a day and
reduce clomid to 50mg once a day. For the fourth week, reduce the
toremifene to 25-30mg daily once a day and clomid 50mg once a day to finish
out the 4th week. This is the best chance to give your body to bring it to
its natural test production levels. At this point, you need to wait 30
days before testing your total test levels. Testing right after you come
off clomid or tore will give false results. "

A friend of mine at the gym has his PhD in organic chemistry, does this and advocates it (the triptorellin) part. Its a GnRH that basically got my balls working in 2 days, and I felt it. That way I can get a kick start in recovery.

HERES THE THING:

I had no bloat problems or anything 2 weeks into PCT, everthing was very smooth, gains remained and got lean as f*ck, I was VERY happy UNTIL I added dutasteride (1 week ago), a dual 5AR inhibitor that blocks conversion Test to DHT, for hairloss. I think this sent my hormones into a haywire resulting in an increase of test and thus, an increase in aromatase activity Im thinking? The night I took it, I literally could not get it up the second day but woke up with a raging hard on day before I took dutasteride. Since then, my face has gotten fatter and fatter and more unrecognizable. Im assuming the acne was from this estrogen increase because I felt like a different person the next day, moody, down, felt weaker, crappy.

Lost a lot of size

So for about a week, I took no AI as i watched myself get acne, thinning of hair and fatigued.

I took aromasin yesterday 12.5, and feel MUCH better today but still water retention.

My diet and cardio are superb.

ADVANCED situation I know, but what do you guys think?

**Lunk1** · 12-23-2012, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by supraman

My cycle was a 14 Week Test E
I waited 2 weeks + 3 days then followed this protocol (Ive done extensive research on various forums to find to wait a few days after the 2 weeks of the last pin)
I followed an atypical PCT:

"SubQ injection of triptorelin 100mcg after most of the last and longest
acting AAS is out of your system. For example, if you are only on tren A
and test propionate then you can safely inject the triptorelin 4 days after
the last dose. But if you are on tren, test enanthate and deca then you
have to wait 3-4 weeks after your last dose to inject triptorelin.
Injecting triptorelin too early when AAS levels are still high can make its
use pretty ineffective. Once you have injected the triptorelin, i advise
my patients for the first two weeks to take 100-120mg of toremifene split
twice a day along with 50mg of Clomid twice a day. For week three, reduce
toremifene by half total daily dosage and still split twice a day and
reduce clomid to 50mg once a day. For the fourth week, reduce the
toremifene to 25-30mg daily once a day and clomid 50mg once a day to finish
out the 4th week. This is the best chance to give your body to bring it to
its natural test production levels. At this point, you need to wait 30
days before testing your total test levels. Testing right after you come
off clomid or tore will give false results. "

A friend of mine at the gym has his PhD in organic chemistry, does this and advocates it (the triptorellin) part. Its a GnRH that basically got my balls working in 2 days, and I felt it. That way I can get a kick start in recovery.

HERES THE THING:

I had no bloat problems or anything 2 weeks into PCT, everthing was very smooth, gains remained and got lean as f*ck, I was VERY happy UNTIL I added dutasteride (1 week ago), a dual 5AR inhibitor that blocks conversion Test to DHT, for hairloss. I think this sent my hormones into a haywire resulting in an increase of test and thus, an increase in aromatase activity Im thinking? The night I took it, I literally could not get it up the second day but woke up with a raging hard on day before I took dutasteride. Since then, my face has gotten fatter and fatter and more unrecognizable. Im assuming the acne was from this estrogen increase because I felt like a different person the next day, moody, down, felt weaker, crappy.

Lost a lot of size

So for about a week, I took no AI as i watched myself get acne, thinning of hair and fatigued.

I took aromasin yesterday 12.5, and feel MUCH better today but still water retention.

My diet and cardio are superb.

ADVANCED situation I know, but what do you guys think?

PCT looks good...perhaps overkill but def. effective. Why did you take the Dutasteride? Are you prone to MPB or concerned about prostate enlargement?

**supraman** · 12-23-2012, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

PCT looks good...perhaps overkill but def. effective. Why did you take the Dutasteride? Are you prone to MPB or concerned about prostate enlargement?

MPB yes, I was using finasteride @ 2.5mg a day during and felt fine.

So should I run an AI still?

**Lunk1** · 12-23-2012, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by supraman

MPB yes, I was using finasteride @ 2.5mg a day during and felt fine.

So should I run an AI still?

I would not run your AI now...you want your test and E2 levels to normalize. I'm thinking you may have crushed your E2 but we really wont know enough till post cycle BW.

Are you just on the Torem and Clomi now? Anything else???

**supraman** · 12-23-2012, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

I would not run your AI now...you want your test and E2 levels to normalize. I'm thinking you may have crushed your E2 but we really wont know enough till post cycle BW.

Are you just on the Torem and Clomi now? Anything else???

Yes still on the two. Why did taking the AI make me feel significantly better? I was fatigued, tired, achy for the last few days but today, a new person. I think I did the opposite, I shot up my estrogen, a side effect of dutasteride... I know what E2 crash feels like and it wasnt like this. I think I want to try the AI for a few days but I appreciate all that you have to say

**Lunk1** · 12-23-2012, 09:42 PM

The dutasteride blocked the conversion of DHT which is important to the body. Men require an amount of estrogen but that particular drug blocks conversion vs lowering E2 like an AI would do. I'm afraid your E2 level was too low do to complete DHT blocking.

**Lunk1** · 12-23-2012, 09:48 PM

A little something I thought you might like to read.....

The strong interaction between the central nervous system and skeletal muscles, collectively referred to as the neuromuscular system, is of key importance to the athlete. There appears little doubt that the ability of the body to adapt to training and its ability to activate nerve endings in muscle tissue are reliant on the interactions of the neuromuscular system. Inhibiting the formation of DHT during a testosterone cycle may therefore inadvertently interfere with strength and muscle mass gains. That’s why most people complain on the sudden drop in the steroid potency when a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor finasteride to a testosterone cycle.

**supraman** · 12-23-2012, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

A little something I thought you might like to read.....

The strong interaction between the central nervous system and skeletal muscles, collectively referred to as the neuromuscular system, is of key importance to the athlete. There appears little doubt that the ability of the body to adapt to training and its ability to activate nerve endings in muscle tissue are reliant on the interactions of the neuromuscular system. Inhibiting the formation of DHT during a testosterone cycle may therefore inadvertently interfere with strength and muscle mass gains. That’s why most people complain on the sudden drop in the steroid potency when a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor finasteride to a testosterone cycle.

Yes Im aware of that, its a trade off between having hair and gaining muscle so Im happy. Im willing to see how it helps hair vs side effects

I did not use a AI the last 2 weeks of clearing the test E going into 2 weeks of PCT. I did not use an AI at all during those times, I just took it yesterday for the first time all PCT!! Hadnt used it for 5 weeks prior. Sorry for being stubborn.

**Lunk1** · 12-23-2012, 10:20 PM

Do as you see fit...the only way of knowing whats going for sure is going to be BW.

**Lunk1** · 12-23-2012, 10:24 PM

copied this from another thread...

i was using dutaseride (1mg a day for a month) which works in the same way as finasteride to block dht. well it blocked it so well that it left me in a estrogen dominant way that i don't want to revisit any time soon. dht works as an estrogen antagonist and so when its (dht) level drops estrogen tends to rise, or is at least estrogens ability to exert its effects rises. so there i was with the effects of high estrogen with no way to fix it except to wait a few weeks while the dutasteride cleared my system. you have to be careful with a5r inhibitors. some guys develop gyno just from using it and it alone much less depression et al. estrogen affects me in the way you're describing (the psychological efects like depression) way before i get in physical effects like itchy nips. i actually prefer this psychological feeling "first" to physical effects like itchy nipple as it gives me time to adjust an AI as needed without worrying about gyno. but i know as soon as i start to get emotional or depressed or moody then it's time to take or increase the aromasin . i honestly can't take the emotional nonsense from estrogen and since confirming what it does and how it affects me i have a new found respect for women who have to deal with it monthly

so all i can say is give it time. your a5r will come back to normal levels and you'll be converting test to dht and that will help mediate the estrogen and in time you'll feel back to normal

**losieloos** · 12-23-2012, 11:23 PM

listen my friend go get blood work done.

**supraman** · 12-24-2012, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

copied this from another thread...

i was using dutaseride (1mg a day for a month) which works in the same way as finasteride to block dht. well it blocked it so well that it left me in a estrogen dominant way that i don't want to revisit any time soon. dht works as an estrogen antagonist and so when its (dht) level drops estrogen tends to rise, or is at least estrogens ability to exert its effects rises. so there i was with the effects of high estrogen with no way to fix it except to wait a few weeks while the dutasteride cleared my system. you have to be careful with a5r inhibitors. some guys develop gyno just from using it and it alone much less depression et al. estrogen affects me in the way you're describing (the psychological efects like depression) way before i get in physical effects like itchy nips. i actually prefer this psychological feeling "first" to physical effects like itchy nipple as it gives me time to adjust an AI as needed without worrying about gyno. but i know as soon as i start to get emotional or depressed or moody then it's time to take or increase the aromasin . i honestly can't take the emotional nonsense from estrogen and since confirming what it does and how it affects me i have a new found respect for women who have to deal with it monthly

so all i can say is give it time. your a5r will come back to normal levels and you'll be converting test to dht and that will help mediate the estrogen and in time you'll feel back to normal

Dude I love you right now. Thank you so much for the info, my mind is blown but finally understanding. So from what I understand, did he keep on the dutasteride but had to keep using his aromasin? So if i do nothing, ill stay in high estrogen so i have to drop the dutasteride or keep using an AI...