Lunk, Jimmy, Austin, Kel, Mickey, etc..

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 02:50 PM

Let me be 100% accurate so everyone understands...

On my first cycle of 500mg test and HCG 250 2x/wk, I started with adex @ .25mg eod like the typical/general protocol. Then about 4 weeks in cycle I started reading that Aromasin is the better AI, better with estrogen rebound, etc. so I switched to the typical L-stane protocol @ 12.5/eod. Then after a few weeks taking that, around week 7, I got BW and my Estrogen results were at 170 (<130 is normal). I posted that result here and that was when I was told I got the wrong test, and I should have gotten E2. So then I decided to go back to adex after talking with Austin and a few others and this time around, I got a script for it so I dont take any chances with bunk drugs. I took Adex @.5mg ed for 10 days and then .5mg eod for the rest of the cycle up until the day of PCT. Started PCT 14 days after last Cyp injection, and stopped HCG 5 days before PCT.

I finished PCT and 3 weeks after PCT, on December 29th, I did BW again to see where my levels are and see if my Estrogen is under control from taking the adex. Today I get the results back and they are as follows:

Total testosterone : 1083
E2 ultra sensitive: 105 (normal is under <30)

Cliff notes of my AI use during my 12 week test cycle:

wk 1-4: adex @.25mg eod - Then I read L-stane was better so I did next step below
wk 4-6(or 7, i dont recall) L-stane at 12.5 eod
wk 7: Got BW done and results came back with 170 Estrogen so I did next step below
wk 7-14: Started Rx adex @.5ed for 10 days, then .5 eod up until day of PCT
wk 14-19: Did PCT with 100/50/50/50 and 40/20/20/20/20/20
Wk 23: Now, 3 weeks after PCT had been completed, got BW done and the numbers were as above

So despite the fact that I switched back and forth throughout different AI's on my cycle, there was never a time where I went w/o an AI from wk 1 all the way up to PCT

What is going on here? Estrogen rebound? How do I put an end to my high estrogen? And is it normal for test levels to be that high 3 weeks after PCT?

Any input would be much appreciated. Thanks.

**Bio-Active** · 01-05-2013, 02:54 PM

So that blood work was done 9 weeks from your last injection?

**Lunk1** · 01-05-2013, 02:56 PM

I'm think first you did BW a bit soon! it looks as if your E2 numbers are heading in the right direction. You were 170+ and now you are 105....

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 02:58 PM

Last injection was October 24th
BW done on Dec 29

JIm, you are right, right about 9 weeks between last injection and most recent BW

**Bio-Active** · 01-05-2013, 02:59 PM

I am assuming you stopped using the hcg right when you started your PCT?

**Lunk1** · 01-05-2013, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

I am assuming you stopped using the hcg right when you started your PCT?

Good ? ^^^^^

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

I'm think first you did BW a bit soon! it looks as if your E2 numbers are heading in the right direction. You were 170+ and now you are 105....

Lunk, the 170+ was for a Total Estrogens test, not the sensitive Estradiol assay that I was supposed to get. I was told for more accuracy, to get the sensitive Estradiol test, which is what I did this time around. Two different tests, two different reference ranges.

Normal range for Total Estrogens is <130 (I was 170)
Normal range for Sensetive E2 is <30 (I am at 105!!!)

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

I am assuming you stopped using the hcg right when you started your PCT?

Correct!! I used HCG up until 5 days before PCT, then dropped it.

Like I said, I did it all by the book and always asked Swifto and other vets what to do, and did much research. I don't understand...

**Lunk1** · 01-05-2013, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Lunk, the 170+ was for a Total Estrogens test, not the sensitive Estradiol assay that I was supposed to get. I was told for more accuracy, to get the sensitive Estradiol test, which is what I did this time around. Two different tests, two different reference ranges.

Normal range for Total Estrogens is <130 (I was 170)
Normal range for Sensetive E2 is <30 (I am at 105!!!)

Got ya! I thought those were both sensetive assays....

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

Got ya! I thought those were both sensetive assays....

Nope, different tests.

I guess what I need to know is...what are the next steps and where did I go wrong in my last cycle so it won't happen again next time??

**Lunk1** · 01-05-2013, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Nope, different tests.

I guess what I need to know is...what are the next steps and where did I go wrong in my last cycle so it won't happen again next time??

Out of curiousity...was this scrip adex or .......

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 03:19 PM

Edit

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 03:26 PM

So question is...what do I do NOW to get this under control? Get back on adex but try (1) mg ed for 10 days? Try Letro?

What a mess..lol

**Bio-Active** · 01-05-2013, 04:08 PM

I think you will level back out over the next 4 weeks. Run labs again in 4 weeks assuming you are not suffering from side effects?

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 04:15 PM

So I should stay away from any AIs for now and just let my body do its thing? I mean these E2 levels are WAY high.

**MickeyKnox** · 01-05-2013, 05:20 PM

The reason your E2 skyrocketed the first time is because you switched from Adex to Stane. Stane takes longer to spool up but has a shorter active life. Its like switching from Prop to Enanthate .

The second test is more conducive to your current AI protocol with Adex, which is a fast acting AI. However, based upon your bloodwork it appears you are sensitive to aromatase enzyme and convert exogenous testosterone more readily than others. Therefore, I would increase my AI next time from the beginning to keep my Estrogen in check.

My .02.

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

The reason your E2 skyrocketed the first time is because you switched from Adex to Stane. Stane takes longer to spool up but has a shorter active life. Its like switching from Prop to Enanthate .

The second test is more conducive to your current AI protocol with Adex, which is a fast acting AI. However, based upon your bloodwork it appears you are sensitive to aromatase enzyme and convert exogenous testosterone more readily than others. Therefore, I would increase my AI next time from the beginning to keep my Estrogen in check.

My .02.

I agree, I am obviously very sensitive to aromatase enzyme. So my question are:

1) What do I do now?
2) For my 2nd cycle, do I Start with adex @ 1mg/ed?
3) Is it normal for one's test levels to be 1000+ 3 weeks after PCT has been completed?

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 05:44 PM

Also, is it possible that while I was taking the adex (week 7-14) everything was fine but now I am having an estrogen rebound from it?

If so, next time around, should I just start at a high Aromasin dose, like 25mg ed, since I heard it's better with estrogen rebound?

**Lunk1** · 01-05-2013, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

I agree, I am obviously very sensitive to aromatase enzyme. So my question are:

1) What do I do now?
2) For my 2nd cycle, do I Start with adex @ 1mg/ed?
3) Is it normal for one's test levels to be 1000+ 3 weeks after PCT has been completed?

I see you edited out your post after I asked if your AI was prescription. I really would like to know...if you prefer to PM thats fine!

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 05:46 PM

Lunk, my AI (Adex) that I started taking at week 6/7-wk 14 was indeed a prescription. I was worried that my Estrogen was so high due to bunk AI, so I had a doc prescribe me adex.

**Lunk1** · 01-05-2013, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Lunk, my AI (Adex) that I started taking at week 6/7-wk 14 was indeed a prescription. I was worried that my Estrogen was so high due to bunk AI, so I had a doc prescribe me adex.

Thanks...I appreciate that info! Nothing to do with your case but curious!

I agree with Jim though...stop taking anything and you will normalize.

**MickeyKnox** · 01-05-2013, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

I agree, I am obviously very sensitive to aromatase enzyme. So my question are:

1) What do I do now?
2) For my 2nd cycle, do I Start with adex @ 1mg/ed?
3) Is it normal for one's test levels to be 1000+ 3 weeks after PCT has been completed?

This is shaky ground for me, but i can tell you what i would do. Whether its right or wrong will be determined by your bloodwork, or perhaps others here who have experienced this exact dilemma. I would let another 3-4wks go by then do bloods again. Some people actually feel better coming in at around 40-55 on a sensitive assay.

Also, i would definitely run my AI higher on next cycle and begin 25mg/day then get bloods around wk 6. I was running higher than that for a number of wks just recently to control E2 sides.

High Test levels 3 wks after PCT is not uncommon. When you get your bloods 3-4 wks form now - if you take my advice - you will then have solid snapshot of your Test levels.

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Also, is it possible that while I was taking the adex (week 7-14) everything was fine but now I am having an estrogen rebound from it?

If so, next time around, should I just start at a high Aromasin dose, like 25mg ed, since I heard it's better with estrogen rebound?

Yes, definitely rebound imho. Aromasin will decrease the likelihood of this occurring as its a suicide inhibitor, not a blocker.

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 06:03 PM

Thanks Mickey, really appreciate the advice. So, here is what I will do...

On the week of Feb 4th next month, I will get this same exact test again (test/e2)and we'll see what the results come out like. I will bring this thread back TTT and share the results with you.

And next cycle, I will start Aromasin from day1 at 25mg/day and get BW 6 weeks in to see where my E2 levels are at.

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 06:15 PM

Hear me out here, fellas....

When I was taking the Clomid/Nolva during PCT, obviously my body was producing test since my test results today show over 1000. But if my test levels are that high during PCT, doesn't that mean that it's getting converted to estrogen? Wouldn't that mean my high E2 levels are now justified due to my high test levels? And if so, shouldn't that mean I should be taking an AI during PCT to keep my estrogen levels in check???

I know this goes against the belief that an AI should be taken PCT, but man, it just makes perfect sense now that I think about it.

Thoughts??

**Bio-Active** · 01-05-2013, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Hear me out here, fellas....

When I was taking the Clomid/Nolva during PCT, obviously my body was producing test since my test results today show over 1000. But if my test levels are that high during PCT, doesn't that mean that it's getting converted to estrogen? Wouldn't that mean my high E2 levels are now justified due to my high test levels? And if so, shouldn't that mean I should be taking an AI during PCT to keep my estrogen levels in check due to the high test???

I know this goes against the belief that an AI should be taken PCT, but man, it just makes perfect sense now that I think about it.

Thoughts??

Your Test level was probably still high from the cycle everyone absorbs it different so if your T levels are still high then yes you could run an AI for 14 days after the last shot leading in to PCT. Aromasin at 25 ed may run your e to low most run it at 12.5

**kelkel** · 01-05-2013, 06:20 PM

Agree with Mick's assessment on this one. Your ever changing protocol did not help at all. Re-test in 4 weeks and leave everything alone. No fasting required. Any kind of nip issues going on or is all ok?

kel

**Bio-Active** · 01-05-2013, 06:20 PM

Yes i am a firm believer in labs. IMO would run labs before the cycle, During the cycle and then again after PCT to see if you have fully recovered.

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

Your Test level was probably still high from the cycle everyone absorbs it different so if your T levels are still high then yes you could run an AI for 14 days after the last shot

I was already doing that. I took adex until my first day of PCT. What I am saying is that since my test levels are very high THROUGHOUT PCT, and those high test levels convert to estrogen, then shouldn't I take an AI DURING PCT to keep estrogen levels under control? See what I am saying?

Originally Posted by jim230027

Aromasin at 25 ed may run your e to low most run it at 12.5

Right, that is what most take it as, but as you can see, I am very sensitive to the aromatese enzyme so I should probably run it higher than what the average person does.

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Agree with Mick's assessment on this one. Your ever changing protocol did not help at all. Re-test in 4 weeks and leave everything alone. No fasting required. Any kind of nip issues going on or is all ok?

kel

All is well with the nips.

**MickeyKnox** · 01-05-2013, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by jim230027

Your Test level was probably still high from the cycle everyone absorbs it different so if your T levels are still high then yes you could run an AI for 14 days after the last shot leading in to PCT. Aromasin at 25 ed may run your e to low most run it at 12.5

I agree with Jim here. In fact, often its recommended to run your AI during you ester period if you're running a long ester.

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Hear me out here, fellas....

When I was taking the Clomid/Nolva during PCT, obviously my body was producing test since my test results today show over 1000. But if my test levels are that high during PCT, doesn't that mean that it's getting converted to estrogen? Wouldn't that mean my high E2 levels are now justified due to my high test levels? And if so, shouldn't that mean I should be taking an AI during PCT to keep my estrogen levels in check???

I know this goes against the belief that an AI should be taken PCT, but man, it just makes perfect sense now that I think about it.

Thoughts??

No. This is backwards thinking. IF your AI is dialed in properly, your E levels will be too. Therefore, you will NOT require an AI in PCT. The idea is to raise your T levels and have you E levels correspond accordingly..in a perfect world. But after PCT is concluded and bloods show unusually high E levels, I would still wait an additional 3-4wks and have bloods taken again to determine if my E levels are rising or falling. This is important to know before adding any AI. Allow your body to adjust FIRST, then take action if necessary.

**Bio-Active** · 01-05-2013, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

I agree with Jim here. In fact, often its recommended to run your AI during you ester period if you're running a long ester.

No. This is backwards thinking. IF your AI is dialed in properly, your E levels will be too. Therefore, you will NOT require an AI in PCT. The idea is to raise your T levels and have you E levels correspond accordingly..in a perfect world. But after PCT is concluded and bloods show unusually high E levels, I would still wait an additional 3-4wks and have bloods taken again to determine if my E levels are rising or falling. This is important to know before adding any AI. Allow your body to adjust FIRST, then take action if necessary.

^^ agreed your body is better at balancing this out than we are

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

I agree with Jim here. In fact, often its recommended to run your AI during you ester period if you're running a long ester.

No. This is backwards thinking. IF your AI is dialed in properly, your E levels will be too. Therefore, you will NOT require an AI in PCT. The idea is to raise your T levels and have you E levels correspond accordingly..in a perfect world. But after PCT is concluded and bloods show unusually high E levels, I would still wait an additional 3-4wks and have bloods taken again to determine if my E levels are rising or falling. This is important to know before adding any AI. Allow your body to adjust FIRST, then take action if necessary.

Mickey,

Hear me out...

What I am saying is.....After I got my BW results from last week (which are the results from being done with PCT for 3 weeks), it is obvious that when I was on PCT, the Nolva/Clomid kicked in hard drive given that my BW test results that I received today show OVER 1000 test levels. Knowing that my test levels are increased by PCT (obviously, again, from my BW results), is it possible that this increase in test during PCT is converting to Estrogen, and a reason why my estrogen levels are very high today? And if so, wouldn't that imply that taking an AI during PCT will control the high estrogen levels that is produced from the higher test?

Sorry, I am trying to be as clear as I can. Does this make sense? Or am I missing your point?

**MickeyKnox** · 01-05-2013, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

Mickey,

Hear me out...

What I am saying is.....After I got my BW results from last week (which are the results from being done with PCT for 3 weeks), it is obvious that when I was on PCT, the Nolva/Clomid kicked in hard drive given that my BW test results that I received today show OVER 1000 test levels. Knowing that my test levels are increased by PCT (obviously, again, from my BW results), is it possible that this increase in test during PCT is converting to Estrogen? And if so, wouldn't that imply that taking an AI during PCT will control the high estrogen levels that is produced from the higher test?

Sorry, I am trying to be as clear as I can. Does this make sense? Or am I missing your point?

Yes. But I think you're confusing whats happening during the ester period. This is when your T levels drop. But in your case they dropped, but not enough, and the additional Testosterone was being converted to estrogen at a faster than usual rate, imho. So, it didn't go from 0 to over 1000 because you ran Clomid and Nolva. Yes the Clomid plays an important role in increasing your Test production, but this is only part of the problem.

Like i said above, if you had your AI dialed in (not your fault youre still trying to determine where 'home' is) you would likely not experience unusually high E2 issues.

**Bio-Active** · 01-05-2013, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

Yes. But I think you're confusing whats happening during the ester period. This is when your T levels drop. But in your case they dropped, but not enough, and the additional Testosterone was being converted to estrogen at a faster than usual rate, imho. So, it didn't go from 0 to over 1000 because you ran Clomid and Nolva. Yes the Clomid plays an important role in increasing your Test production, but this is only part of the problem.

Like i said above, if you had your AI dialed in (not your fault youre still trying to determine where 'home' is) you would likely not experience unusually high E2 issues.

^^^^ This is why i find it so important to run labs during the cycle! So you can make adjustments.

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

Yes. But I think you're confusing whats happening during the ester period. This is when your T levels drop. But in your case they dropped, but not enough, and the additional Testosterone was being converted to estrogen at a faster than usual rate, imho. So, it didn't go from 0 to over 1000 because you ran Clomid and Nolva. Yes the Clomid plays an important role in increasing your Test production, but this is only part of the problem.

Like i said above, if you had your AI dialed in (not your fault youre still trying to determine where 'home' is) you would likely not experience unusually high E2 issues.

If my body type doesn't drop in test levels like the usual or all that much during PCT, and my test levels during PCT are high and are getting converted to estrogen, then why aren't I on an AI during PCT to control the estrogen??

This has nothing to do with AI/estrogen and keeping estrogen in check during cycle. This has to do with my test levels being very high during PCT, and hence being converted to estrogen - which is why I am saying maybe I should use an AI during PCT.

I am not trying to argue against you, there is a reason why your name is in the subject line of this thread, lol. I am just trying to understand a point. =)

**MickeyKnox** · 01-05-2013, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Trying-Hard

If my body type doesn't drop in test levels like the usual or all that much during PCT, and my test levels during PCT are high and are getting converted to estrogen, then why aren't I on an AI during PCT to control the estrogen??

This has nothing to do with AI/estrogen and keeping estrogen in check during cycle. This has to do with my test levels being very high during PCT, and hence being converted to estrogen - which is why I am saying maybe I should use an AI during PCT.

I am not trying to argue against you, there is a reason why your name is in the subject line of this thread, lol. I am just trying to understand a point. =)

I totally understand what youre saying. But if your Estrogen is in check during cycle and leading up to PCT, then upon completion of PCT your E levels will be high BUT NOT usually high. Your body should correct this easily and return you to baseline, unless there is some other impending issue that is unknown at this time. Perhaps you have to examine other peoples bloodwork to see what im referring to.

**Trying-Hard** · 01-05-2013, 07:22 PM

Mickey, I will take your word for it..=)

I will get another test in 4 weeks and share the results with you. Thanks for your help.

**MickeyKnox** · 01-05-2013, 07:34 PM

You could also pop this question up in the HRT forums and see what the Specialists have to say. You may get a different opinion bro. Nothing wrong with that. But this is how i understand it.

Good luck and keep this thread updated. Im definitely interested in the outcome as this will be a learning experience for us all too.

**austinite** · 01-05-2013, 08:35 PM

Also in agreement with Mickey.

**kelkel** · 01-06-2013, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

You could also pop this question up in the HRT forums and see what the Specialists have to say. You may get a different opinion bro. Nothing wrong with that. But this is how i understand it.

Good luck and keep this thread updated. Im definitely interested in the outcome as this will be a learning experience for us all too.

Most in the HRT forum are really not familiar with this sort of thing. Mick, you handled this exceptionally well IMO. The op's in good hands with your advice here. Time will straighten this out....