orals and liver protectant?

[warmouth]

Word of the day: Hubris

[Atomini]

Atomini, sorry, I didnt read as far down as your references before I posted. I just saw the comment on my way down and pulled the trigger because I remembered what you told me about it months ago. Sorry about that.

Not a problem at all. Just to clarify you post to jimmy, I want to add that TUDCA/UDCA where cholesterol profiles are concerned is one of those fine-line double-edged swords. For the most part, it has been shown to improve cholesterol profiles. However, when utilized for too long, it can shift them into the negative. I don't think dose is an issue unless venturing VERY high with it, so 500 - 1,000mg weekly should be fine but I wouldn't go any higher than that and I wouldn't run it for more than 8 weeks at a time.

I do remember your bloodwork that we looked over from several months back, and you have to remember that your cholesterol values were out of whack for a few different reasons, not just TUDCA/UDCA use. I remember the primary issue with you was that you were utilizing Hydrocodone that also contained acetominophen (tylenol) in it, which was causing increased liver enzyme values in your bloodwork. You were confused because you thought that the use of TUDCA/UDCA would prevent that, but as I explained above, UDCA/TUDCA does not work for acetaminophen induced liver damage. Incidentally, the slightly elevated hepatotoxicity you were getting from the acetaminophen use was also likely contributing to your offset in cholesterol values. I don't think that your UDCA/TUDCA use had as much to do with your cholesterol values as you might have originally thought. I believe it was due to other factors.

[Atomini]

Word of the day: Hubris

Definitely. Add it to your vocabulary if you haven't already.

Dictionary definition of Hubris: hu·bris (hybrs) also hy·bris (h-)
n.
Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance: "There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy).

In its modern use, hubris denotes overconfident pride and arrogance; it is often associated with a lack of humility, though not always with the lack of knowledge. It is also referred to as "pride that blinds", as it often causes one accused of hubris to act in foolish ways that belie common sense. In other words, the modern definition may be thought of as, "that pride that comes just before the fall". Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power.

Yeah I think that pretty much defines this supposed Doctor that was previously mentioned. If I ever met this doctor, I would tell her that she's sickeningly hubristic right to her face, and call her a stuck up bitch. Because that's exactly what she sounds like.

[warmouth]

Not a problem at all. Just to clarify you post to jimmy, I want to add that TUDCA/UDCA where cholesterol profiles are concerned is one of those fine-line double-edged swords. For the most part, it has been shown to improve cholesterol profiles. However, when utilized for too long, it can shift them into the negative. I don't think dose is an issue unless venturing VERY high with it, so 500 - 1,000mg weekly should be fine but I wouldn't go any higher than that and I wouldn't run it for more than 8 weeks at a time.

I do remember your bloodwork that we looked over from several months back, and you have to remember that your cholesterol values were out of whack for a few different reasons, not just TUDCA/UDCA use. I remember the primary issue with you was that you were utilizing Hydrocodone that also contained acetominophen (tylenol) in it, which was causing increased liver enzyme values in your bloodwork. You were confused because you thought that the use of TUDCA/UDCA would prevent that, but as I explained above, UDCA/TUDCA does not work for acetaminophen induced liver damage. Incidentally, the slightly elevated hepatotoxicity you were getting from the acetaminophen use was also likely contributing to your offset in cholesterol values. I don't think that your UDCA/TUDCA use had as much to do with your cholesterol values as you might have originally thought. I believe it was due to other factors.

Ah, I remember well. I know you are very knowledgeable with this subject, but I remembered what you told me. I didnt see your post, as I had not made it that far down. I figured if I was wrong that you would correct it.

[warmouth]

Definitely. Add it to your vocabulary if you haven't already.

Dictionary definition of Hubris: hu·bris (hybrs) also hy·bris (h-)
n.
Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance: "There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy).

In its modern use, hubris denotes overconfident pride and arrogance; it is often associated with a lack of humility, though not always with the lack of knowledge. It is also referred to as "pride that blinds", as it often causes one accused of hubris to act in foolish ways that belie common sense. In other words, the modern definition may be thought of as, "that pride that comes just before the fall". Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power.

Yeah I think that pretty much defines this supposed Doctor that was previously mentioned. If I ever met this doctor, I would tell her that she's sickeningly hubristic right to her face, and call her a stuck up bitch. Because that's exactly what she sounds like.

LOL! I got to get some of the nooma for sure.

[TYHO127]

Haha you guys are crazy

[TYHO127]

I just ordered some TUDCA From a place called Build your own blend. Ever heard of it I guess its 5 grams of powder. It was a lot cheaper than the pills. Anyone have experience with this?

[Atomini]

I just ordered some TUDCA From a place called Build your own blend. Ever heard of it I guess its 5 grams of powder. It was a lot cheaper than the pills. Anyone have experience with this?

I have heard of it but never used it. I believe a few members here have used it as well (bought it off amazon.com I believe) and have heard nothing but good things.

[TYHO127]

NICE! thats exactly where I got it. The only thing im worried about is it didnt say how many doses it was. Could be a week or a month?

[Atomini]

NICE! thats exactly where I got it. The only thing im worried about is it didnt say how many doses it was. Could be a week or a month?

Depends how much you use. If you bought 100% pure TUDCA powder, it should be whatever amount you bought. So for example, if you bought 100g of powder, that means you have 100g of TUDCA. You need a digital scale to measure, so if you want 500mg of TUDCA then just measure 500mg on your scale.

[TYHO127]

I bought 5g. Any idea what a proper dose is?

[Atomini]

You should've bought more. Poper dosing is listed right in the first post of my liver thread I linked you to. Basically 500mg per day when using oral AAS.

[TYHO127]

No worries.not on cycle right now so I can always get more. Do you know how many mg is in 5g?

[Atomini]

1g = 1,000mg. So, 5,000mg.

[TYHO127]

Yuup! I might need a little more ha

[TYHO127]

Just got it... don't put that crap derectly on your younger! Instant gag! Yuuk! Better off parachuting it

[TYHO127]

Tongue I meant

[Natureboy71]

Liv 52 a month before you start orals and 1.5-2 gallons of water a day. That has always keep my values in check.

[lovbyts]

Liv52 is pretty good and Milk thistle wont hurt but from all the studies and data out there it looks like TUDCA is the way to go for good liver care. I'm going to give it a try since my liver functions are borderline most of the time especially on cycle or just a tad high. I had Hep B in 1990 although my test show I'm 100% clean, not a carrier in any way anymore but still got to watch those liver functions.

[Atomini]

Liv52 is pretty good and Milk thistle wont hurt but from all the studies and data out there it looks like TUDCA is the way to go for good liver care. I'm going to give it a try since my liver functions are borderline most of the time especially on cycle or just a tad high. I had Hep B in 1990 although my test show I'm 100% clean, not a carrier in any way anymore but still got to watch those liver functions.

Wow you actually got the viral load reduced to zero? Total elimination of the virus is really rare.

[lovbyts]

Wow you actually got the viral load reduced to zero? Total elimination of the virus is really rare.

Yeah I know. I was not aware of this until I had blood work done specifically for the Hep B 1 year ago just before my shoulder surgery. I was pleasantly surprised.

[ironbeck]

No it does not.

What is the ratio of patients in this world suffering from C17-alpha alkylated oral-induced Cholestasis of the liver to those suffering from liver damage as a result of excessive Tylenol use? Or Hepatitis C? The answer is: too small to even be able to come up with a ratio. How many doctors every year in the ER receive patients with oral AAS induced Cholestasis? The average ER in most hospitals probably sees NONE.

And not all hepatotixicity and liver damage is the same. Cholestasis resultant of oral AAS use is very specific. Hepatitis is the result of liver death from infection of the liver by viruses that attack hepatic cells. I am no liver specialist and even I know these things! Let me educate you on something... For example, people need to understand that UDCA/TUDCA is an amazing liver protectant but is limited to hepatotoxicity and damage as a result of Cholestasis (caused by oral AAS use or otherwise), Hepatitis (to an extent), and alcohol-induced hepatotoxicity. HOWEVER, UDCA/TUDCA is near useless for acetaminophen-related liver damage (Tylenol). Liver damage from acetaminophen is completely different from liver damage caused by AAS or alcohol. UDCA/TUDCA is very beneficial for treating the condition i've mentioned many times known as Cholestasis, which is what oral anabolic steroids are responsible for causing. Acetaminophen-related liver toxicity is really something completely different. When acetaminophen is metabolized by the liver, some of it is metabolized into a toxic byproduct known as NAPQI (which stands for N-acetyl-p-benzoquinoneimine). When acetaminophen is taken in recommended doses, your body can quickly remove this toxic by-product in the urine. However, when the liver needs to suddenly metabolize overdose or very frequent levels of acetaminophen, too much of the toxic NAPQI is produced and it starts injure and destroy the main cells of the liver because of how destructive and toxic the NAPQI is. This is not Cholestasis, which is characterized by either physical or chemical obstruction of bile flow within the liver. UDCA/TUDCA will do nothing against acetominophen-induced liver damage.

This is the problem when people read about UDCA/TUDCA or any related such things, they think it is the king liver protectant against EVERYTHING harmful to the liver. No. Absolutely not. Different things that are hepatotoxic are hepatotoxic for different and often unrelated reasons. UDCA/TUDCA just happens to be very good at assisting the liver in dealing with minor to increasingly severe Cholestasis. It can't really do very much for NAPQI toxicity. Many studies have demonstrated the immaculate ability for UDCA/TUDCA to heal the liver from severe Cholestasis and assist proper bile flow to start operating normally again.

I honestly don't give a flying rat's ass if some particular doctor is the leading liver specialist in the world. If she makes a statement like "nothing is the best protectant for the liver" right in the face of evidence to the contrary as demonstrated by clinical studies and vast amounts of evidence, then this doctor you speak of is just plain ignorant, uninformed, and quite frankly, HUBRIS!!! NO doctor should be like this, and no doctor should be throwing out statements like that ESPECIALLY if they are a prominent liver specialist as you suggest. That is the most unnaceptable attitude for any doctor to have, and she should be ashamed of herself.

She should be ashamed of herself for making such a hubris statement in the face of many studies that have been done on the benefits of use of TUDCA/UDCA on Hepatitis C patients with very positive results. Here, i've got some links and quotes for you,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17943781

Bile acids for viral hepatitis. Chen W, Liu J, Gluud C. Toronto Western Hospital, University Health Network, University of Toronto, Liver Clinic, Room 181, 6B Fell Pav, 399 Bathurst St, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5T 2S8. [email protected]



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9840118

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid for the treatment of HCV-related chronic hepatitis: a multicenter placebo-controlled study. Crosignani A, Budillon G, Cimino L, Del Vecchio Blanco C, Loguercio C, Ideo G, Raimondo G, Stabilini R, Podda M. Division of Internal Medicine, School of Medicine San Paolo, Milan, Italy.




http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...615.x/abstract

Effect of tauroursodeoxycholic acid on bile acid-induced apoptosis in primary human hepatocytes. European Journal of Clinical Investigation.



There are even more studies out there that have shown positive liver repair benefits from UDCA/TUDCA for Hepatitis victims. TUDCA/UDCA has assisted SO MANY people in improved liver function and recovery to the point where they are either cured or to the point where they can function normally because UDCA/TUDCA has brought their livers at neat 100% health. TUDCA/UDCA has worked so much better than anything else for liver health out there that the medical establishment has jumped all over it since its demonstrable evidence has been expounded. As a result, UDCA/TUDCA raw powders for synthesis into tablets or medication is now very scarce on the market because of how much big pharma has caught onto it.

Doctors that make such hubris statements about any particular issue concerning the treatment of ailments and disorders despite all of the evidence to the contrary should have their practicing license revoked. Seriously. I know one individual whom I was close with that died of Hepatitis C and suffered a great deal because her doctor was so closed-minded as to the different treatment options that I was telling her to ask her doctor about. Absolutely disgusting.

Your knowledge is great concerning AAS and many other things, but in this case I will take the one on one conversation I had with one of the top 50 liver specialist in the whole friggin world talking to me in laymen terms, This liitle, fragile lady of india decent just plainly told me everything u put in your pie hole gets processed by your liver, the more things u put in it the harder it works, water and nothing else is best. Since she has the medical degrees(plural) 8 + post graduate yrs...
No offense their Atomni you are an estute dude and I value your advise, I will have to agree with the little old lady on this one lol

[Atomini]

Your knowledge is great concerning AAS and many other things, but in this case I will take the one on one conversation I had with one of the top 50 liver specialist in the whole friggin world talking to me in laymen terms, This liitle, fragile lady of india decent just plainly told me everything u put in your pie hole gets processed by your liver, the more things u put in it the harder it works, water and nothing else is best. Since she has the medical degrees(plural) 8 + post graduate yrs...
No offense their Atomni you are an estute dude and I value your advise, I will have to agree with the little old lady on this one lol

No offense taken and everyone has to take some side in any debate, but you have to see where i'm coming from on this. How in-depth did you go into liver discussions with this doctor? In what context did this doctor claim that "nothing is worth using for liver repair"? I'm sorry, but I have to side with the evidence rather than some person's opinion, despite how much time someone has put into any discipline. There are plenty of people who have put in many years of effort into something that all goes down the drain because of a little opinion of theirs that flies against mountains of evidence that makes their opinion plain wrong. What this doctor said, as far as I know from what you have told me, is tantamount to those weirdo 'creation scientists' that are indeed doctors and scientists with impressive credentials that claim the earth is only 5,000 years old in the face of the massive amounts of evidence to the contrary (I mean, come on). I never put someone's credentials above and beyond the TRUTH, and if someone is saying something that goes against evidence to the contrary, then i'm sorry: back it up with evidence.

And if the person cannot possibly show me evidence that:

- TUDCA/UDCA does not work for individuals suffering from cholestasis (oral AAS caused or otherwise)
- Various liver antioxidants do nothing
- "Nothing is the best protectant for the liver"

Yet they are still insistent in their claim(s), then that person loses all credibility in my eyes, I don't care who they are or what title they hold. But what you're telling me is that despite the numerous clinical evidence i've shown you (not including the other evidence out there that I didn't cite), that you will choose to accept someone's opinion to the contrary of the evidence i've shown you just because they have X amount of years under their belt in Y field of medicine instead of the truth?

Well alright then, that's your choice, and you have the freedom to choose as you wish. But I care too damn much about the truth to side with an individual's opinion 'just 'cause they have X years of education and Y years of experience in the field" and I think it is a very strange and illogical and irrational decision, and I fail to understand the motivation behind it.

[ironbeck]

No offense taken and everyone has to take some side in any debate, but you have to see where i'm coming from on this. How in-depth did you go into liver discussions with this doctor? In what context did this doctor claim that "nothing is worth using for liver repair"? I'm sorry, but I have to side with the evidence rather than some person's opinion, despite how much time someone has put into any discipline. There are plenty of people who have put in many years of effort into something that all goes down the drain because of a little opinion of theirs that flies against mountains of evidence that makes their opinion plain wrong. What this doctor said, as far as I know from what you have told me, is tantamount to those weirdo 'creation scientists' that are indeed doctors and scientists with impressive credentials that claim the earth is only 5,000 years old in the face of the massive amounts of evidence to the contrary (I mean, come on). I never put someone's credentials above and beyond the TRUTH, and if someone is saying something that goes against evidence to the contrary, then i'm sorry: back it up with evidence.

And if the person cannot possibly show me evidence that:

- TUDCA/UDCA does not work for individuals suffering from cholestasis (oral AAS caused or otherwise)
- Various liver antioxidants do nothing
- "Nothing is the best protectant for the liver"

Yet they are still insistent in their claim(s), then that person loses all credibility in my eyes, I don't care who they are or what title they hold. But what you're telling me is that despite the numerous clinical evidence i've shown you (not including the other evidence out there that I didn't cite), that you will choose to accept someone's opinion to the contrary of the evidence i've shown you just because they have X amount of years under their belt in Y field of medicine instead of the truth?

Well alright then, that's your choice, and you have the freedom to choose as you wish. But I care too damn much about the truth to side with an individual's opinion 'just 'cause they have X years of education and Y years of experience in the field" and I think it is a very strange and illogical and irrational decision, and I fail to understand the motivation behind it.

Yea k, this debate will go nowhere, u are comparing some wacko idiots to the person I mentioned....good luck.

[Atomini]

Yea k, this debate will go nowhere, u are comparing some wacko idiots to the person I mentioned....good luck.

LOL, i'm sorry. I don't know this female doctor personally, so that was the closest comparison I could make. Either way, I think we have demonstrated our positions quite clearly and that we can agree to disagree.