Need some good advice from seasoned lifters

[mixx113]

So im 23, have been training very hard for about 9 years and I have been stuck on a ridiculous plateau for about 1.5 years. Im 5.9' 205 with about 8% BF and have always been a hard gainer. I train very heavy - Max BP 420, DL 600, squat 570 and my body weight and lifts have not increased in the last year and a half. I have tried every type of training (low weight high rep, high weight low rep, drop sets, negative training), Im taking in 5k plus calories a day and still can not gain body weight or weight on my lifts and I think my body is genetically maxed out for my age and frame. Ive never used any type of anabolic or prohormone and Im beginning to believe it may be the only way to break the plateau.
Im a rookie when it comes to anabolics but ive done my research and understand how to properly run a cycle with post cycle, and supporting supplements.
What im looking for is a little advise from a veteran to give me some more insight to help me decide if this is a good option for me and which route I should take if I decide to use an anabolic. My questions are the following:
1. Has anyone been in this position where they have used an anabolic for the first time to break such a long plateau? If so can you tell me what you used, your results, what you maintained and anything else you feel I should know.
2. I understand shutdown will occur and post cycle to crucial to restore hormone levels and keep your gains but my concern is that they will not return completely and I may end up loosing my natural progress I busted my ass to achieve in the long run if I decided not to run a cycle again.
3. I am happy with my current size and strength, it just frustrating training so hard and not seeing results for years. Im not looking to gain 20 pounds on this cycle just break my plateau and see moderate strength and size gains. Would a longer lower dosage cycle be better for these results? what would you recommend I run? for how long? and in what dosage? (I can get my hands on whatever I need )
4. I know im going to get bashed for this but I hear mixed reviews on Dbol only cycles, but keeping my goals in mind is this an option for me. Ive seen threads where people have gone 10-15mgs a day for 6 weeks and been happy with the results and retention of gains. Am I an idiot for considering this? or could that give me the moderate results im looking for.
5. Should I just be happy with where I am and stay natural? Prob not the best place for this question but has anyone regretted taking the jump to anabolics in the long run? Im no rookie to lifting and get accused of being on the sauce daily so should I just continue with what ive been doing?
Sorry this is such a long post but I wanted to cover everything to make sure I get the best advise possible. Any insight you guys can give me would be great. Thanks!

[Fcarey32]

Being a beginner, test is best man, people underestimate the power of some good ole fashioned testosterone . I PROMISE you, a test only cycle, with a proper diet & intense training will NOT disappoint you! Can we see some macros on your diet?

[armyranger516862006]

Anyone below 25 years of age should not even consider AAS!!

[Dougiefresh7707]

23 too young but could you post a pic please your a beast 5'9 205 8% I'm 200 5'10 15% now, I would be very pleased at your stats able to maintain them year round.

[RipOwens]

Sounds like a pretty good physique to me already my man.

[Dougiefresh7707]

Being a beginner, test is best man, people underestimate the power of some good ole fashioned testosterone. I PROMISE you, a test only cycle, with a proper diet & intense training will NOT disappoint you! Can we see some macros on your diet?

Please don't inform without knowing what your doing thanks.

[JWP806]

Anyone below 25 years of age should not even consider AAS!!

Stop parroting this shit. Or show me a study. I feel that there's a big difference between someone who is 18-19 wanting to cycle vs 22-23.

[OnTheSauce]

Please don't inform without knowing what your doing thanks.

Maybe you should take your own advice

[Dougiefresh7707]

Maybe you should take your own advice

Lately I haven't really gave any bad advice my friend but thanks, I came in ignorant but I have done my reading and alot of it every night religiously. I guess your ok with telling some one this young to jump on a test cycle too then?

[Dougiefresh7707]

Stop parroting this shit. Or show me a study. I feel that there's a big difference between someone who is 18-19 wanting to cycle vs 22-23.

I don't agree it's all about the endocrine system not being fully devolved.
There are studies on this subject also.

[armyranger516862006]

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...good-read.html

[OnTheSauce]

Lately I haven't really gave any bad advice my friend but thanks, I came in ignorant but I have done my reading and alot of it every night religiously. I guess your ok with telling some one this young to jump on a test cycle too then?

If his stats were/are real and he wanted to compete, yes.

[Dougiefresh7707]

If his stats were/are real and he wanted to compete, yes.

So if he want to compete its cool for him to do aas but if he just want to get big for himself no ? idk if I see the logic behind that I'm sry. Hope all these new members don't see this, everyone will just say oh I want to compete and members will say yea go for it no problem go for it!?

[OnTheSauce]

There's more to it than that and we already had a huge thread on this. But the bottom line is this.... if he has the training experience, genetics, and knowledge of what he is embarking then yes I will help them. This OP just wants to move past a plateau, so no Aas at his age. But his size and lifts are very strong, especially natty. He would already be a top 50 lifter in the nation at 198lb. Assuming his lifts are real and would count in a meet.

[Dougiefresh7707]

There's more to it than that and we already had a huge thread on this. But the bottom line is this.... if he has the training experience, genetics, and knowledge of what he is embarking then yes I will help them. This OP just wants to move past a plateau, so no Aas at his age. But his size and lifts are very strong, especially natty. He would already be a top 50 lifter in the nation at 198lb

I agree he is very strong with great stats, plateaus cane be overcome with a switch in diet and training without aas. I saw the thread also I don't agree with all of it. What I was trying to say mostly is anyone can post great days and say Im this that and the other but it might not be true 5'9 205 8% isn't unbelievable but some don't know bf% and so on, so I asked for a picture if the stats an pic don't match I continue from that point.

An to clear it up this isn't an argument I'm sure you know alot pat I just was explaining my side also .

[OnTheSauce]

I don't think its right for him or his goals at 23

[crazy mike]

Some things are written in stone and some are not. We know, you guys know there are exceptions to every rule, so to speak. I don't believe anyone at 18-19 or younger can be an exception. But here we are arguing with one another while OP stands back and listens to this crap. So for him we didn't explain much, but we really confused the matter.
I just wanted everyone to get a grip.
OP I advise you to wait for some time here while you investigate all this more. When you think you've got it down, what , who, when, where ,, how, and why, etc.. put some definitive Q's together and post them in the Q & A site on this forum. Good luck man. it it is true you are a strong man to say the least and if natural well that beats all, be cool ....crazy mike

I also think you are too young and where your at, you're good at that point.

[mixx113]

Thanks I appreciate the insight. Like I said im on the fence just looking for opinions from people who know much more about this then myself. I don't have an exact micro breakdown but ill bring you through my typical day. Its hard for me to gain weight so im constantly carbo loading throughout the day, and pre/post workout.
breakfast shake- 50g whey, cup oatmeal, 100g maltodextros carb loader, banana, scoop peanut butter, about 2 cups whole milk.
snack- Massive PB&j, fruit
lunch- as much pasta and chicken as I can eat
snack 2- same shake with only 25g whey
Preworkout- lots of fruit and sports drink (at least 150g carbs to fill glycogen stores)
intaworkout- bag of cereal (keep cortisol down and prevent catabolism, plus im freeking hungry when I lift)
Post workout carbo load 150g carbs. mostly sugary drinks or fruit or carb loader. (I want in insulin spike immediately post workout)
Post workout meal - normally a lot of rice or potatoes with a pound of meat and veg.
Snack - fruit yogurt and granola or cereal or PB&J basically anything healthy I get my hands on
Before bed- same shake as breakfast
Just my typical day, I try to change things up when they get boring but always eat every 2-3 hours

[chi]

So im 23, have been training very hard for about 9 years and I have been stuck on a ridiculous plateau for about 1.5 years. Im 5.9' 205 with about 8% BF and have always been a hard gainer. I train very heavy - Max BP 420, DL 600, squat 570 and my body weight and lifts have not increased in the last year and a half. I have tried every type of training (low weight high rep, high weight low rep, drop sets, negative training), Im taking in 5k plus calories a day and still can not gain body weight or weight on my lifts and I think my body is genetically maxed out for my age and frame. Ive never used any type of anabolic or prohormone and Im beginning to believe it may be the only way to break the plateau.
Im a rookie when it comes to anabolics but ive done my research and understand how to properly run a cycle with post cycle, and supporting supplements.
What im looking for is a little advise from a veteran to give me some more insight to help me decide if this is a good option for me and which route I should take if I decide to use an anabolic. My questions are the following:
1. Has anyone been in this position where they have used an anabolic for the first time to break such a long plateau? If so can you tell me what you used, your results, what you maintained and anything else you feel I should know.
2. I understand shutdown will occur and post cycle to crucial to restore hormone levels and keep your gains but my concern is that they will not return completely and I may end up loosing my natural progress I busted my ass to achieve in the long run if I decided not to run a cycle again.
3. I am happy with my current size and strength, it just frustrating training so hard and not seeing results for years. Im not looking to gain 20 pounds on this cycle just break my plateau and see moderate strength and size gains. Would a longer lower dosage cycle be better for these results? what would you recommend I run? for how long? and in what dosage? (I can get my hands on whatever I need )
4. I know im going to get bashed for this but I hear mixed reviews on Dbol only cycles, but keeping my goals in mind is this an option for me. Ive seen threads where people have gone 10-15mgs a day for 6 weeks and been happy with the results and retention of gains. Am I an idiot for considering this? or could that give me the moderate results im looking for.
5. Should I just be happy with where I am and stay natural? Prob not the best place for this question but has anyone regretted taking the jump to anabolics in the long run? Im no rookie to lifting and get accused of being on the sauce daily so should I just continue with what ive been doing?
Sorry this is such a long post but I wanted to cover everything to make sure I get the best advise possible. Any insight you guys can give me would be great. Thanks!

Great stats for being natty OP I am going to assume you are being honest and will go ahead and answer your questions for you. First off you must have good genes because I dont know many guys who are 8% at 5'9" and 205 that is big for your frame for sure.

If you are considering cycling for the first time the best thing to do is take a look beginner's cycles right here http://forums.steroid.com/educationa...ycle-info.html

This will give you a good amount of direction into what you need to know to get started and a sample cycle. There is no specific cycle to break a plateau so to say. Test only cycle is what I would recommend to start off with which will yield good gains and if you eat right, train hard, follow pct, you should keep most your gains.

What I don't recommend is a dbol only cycle. Its not what people claim it to be and most of the gains are water weight which you will lose post cycle. You are correct in being worried about losing your natty gains but if you take an ai while on, hcg , and follow proper pct you should be fine.

LMK if I covered everything

CHI

[chi]

Post up a pic man so we can see where you are at

[TheResearcher]

So im 23, have been training very hard for about 9 years and I have been stuck on a ridiculous plateau for about 1.5 years. Im 5.9' 205 with about 8% BF and have always been a hard gainer. I train very heavy - Max BP 420, DL 600, squat 570 and my body weight and lifts have not increased in the last year and a half. I have tried every type of training (low weight high rep, high weight low rep, drop sets, negative training), Im taking in 5k plus calories a day and still can not gain body weight or weight on my lifts and I think my body is genetically maxed out for my age and frame. Ive never used any type of anabolic or prohormone and Im beginning to believe it may be the only way to break the plateau.
Im a rookie when it comes to anabolics but ive done my research and understand how to properly run a cycle with post cycle, and supporting supplements.

5K calories a day and you're 8% BF without AAS? You're my hero.

[Dougiefresh7707]

I Apologize op mikes right didn't mean to rob your thread just was trying to make sure you were what you said you were, guess I'm just not very trusting you know my bad. I did give my view first thought so that's what I'm sticking to but like everyone had said your in great shape naturally I'm sure you can get over your plateau naturally too. Good luck man keep it up and keep it safe

[mixx113]

Just snapped some pics for you guys, not the best but it will give you guys an idea of where im at. The one is a my arm with a crazy pump mid workout. I just guessed the 8% body fat, I have no real way of testing it so I just ball parked where I think im at. But I really have no ambition of competing, just love the sport and the challenges of pushing myself. I didn't beef up my stats to impress you guys, im just looking for some honest opinions and so far im happy with the imput and comments im getting so keep them coming.

[Lunk1]

Stop parroting this shit. Or show me a study. I feel that there's a big difference between someone who is 18-19 wanting to cycle vs 22-23.

Plenty of info available citing the fact that the human brain is not considered fully developed till an average of age 25. The same info explains the role of the brain and the endocrine system.

[Dougiefresh7707]

Just snapped some pics for you guys, not the best but it will give you guys an idea of where im at. The one is a my arm with a crazy pump mid workout. I just guessed the 8% body fat, I have no real way of testing it so I just ball parked where I think im at. But I really have no ambition of competing, just love the sport and the challenges of pushing myself. I didn't beef up my stats to impress you guys, im just looking for some honest opinions and so far im happy with the imput and comments im getting so keep them coming.

Can't really tell if you 8 without front view picture but you look good man no doubt about that wish I had those veins lol.

[mixx113]

Thanks dougiefresh and I appreciate the honesty, I have also read that 23 is too young and I would really hate to take 2 steps forward and 4 steps back, which is why im here to help in my decision. Again im not sure on the 8% but overall im really happy with where im at, the lack of progress is just killing me

[Dougiefresh7707]

Thanks dougiefresh and I appreciate the honesty, I have also read that 23 is too young and I would really hate to take 2 steps forward and 4 steps back, which is why im here to help in my decision. Again im not sure on the 8% but overall im really happy with where im at, the lack of progress is just killing me

You should be happy looking good man no homo lol do you do hit for your workouts?

[mixx113]

I start all my workouts with the compound power lifts then work into more HIT and no break supersets to finish. For example on back day ill start deads 135x20 225x20 315x15 405x12 495x6-8 and if im feeling good work into the 550 range for 1-3. then move to weighted pull up, then tbar row or bent overrow (following the same rep scheme) all with a lot of rest, hitting the sets fresh. Then I start to shorten my rest peroids and work in the 8-12 range for variations of lat pulls and db or seated rows. Ill finish up with a no break 3 exercise superset in the 25 rep range with more concentrated exercises such as back cable flies, rope rows or single arm lat pulls and ill cycle the exercises till failure. I found it works great for maintaining strength, lean muscle mass, and definition. I use this principal for every muscle group

[chi]

<img src="http://forums.steroid .com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139562"/>
<img src="http://forums.steroid.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139563"/>
<img src="http://forums.steroid.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139564"/>
Just snapped some pics for you guys, not the best but it will give you guys an idea of where im at. The one is a my arm with a crazy pump mid workout. I just guessed the 8% body fat, I have no real way of testing it so I just ball parked where I think im at. But I really have no ambition of competing, just love the sport and the challenges of pushing myself. I didn't beef up my stats to impress you guys, im just looking for some honest opinions and so far im happy with the imput and comments im getting so keep them coming.

Looking good mixx just was a bit skeptical and wanted to see what you were working with. Quite an achievement for no aas use. It really comes down to your goals and aspirations. I would look to members like Marcus300 and his diary on here to see if you would benefit from his Hiit type of training to break your plateau. Also Ronnie Rowland's slingshot method can be tried just the same. He has a sticky on here too. There is a wealth of info and extremely knowledgable/helpful members that would be able to help you with or without aas.

In short, as mentioned previously, you will gain with the use of aas and break past where you are at. It is up to you if you want to venture to the "darkside" like most of us have or stay natty in which you already look like you cycle. All depends on how far you want to take your physique.

[Dougiefresh7707]

I start all my workouts with the compound power lifts then work into more HIT and no break supersets to finish. For example on back day ill start deads 135x20 225x20 315x15 405x12 495x6-8 and if im feeling good work into the 550 range for 1-3. then move to weighted pull up, then tbar row or bent overrow (following the same rep scheme) all with a lot of rest, hitting the sets fresh. Then I start to shorten my rest peroids and work in the 8-12 range for variations of lat pulls and db or seated rows. Ill finish up with a no break 3 exercise superset in the 25 rep range with more concentrated exercises such as back cable flies, rope rows or single arm lat pulls and ill cycle the exercises till failure. I found it works great for maintaining strength, lean muscle mass, and definition. I use this principal for every muscle group

I think Marcus can help you alot post in his diary on this site your problem maybe he will give you some feedback I think full hit would help you over that wall your hitting IMO everyone is different thought worth a try we are young so we have nothing but Tim to learn what are bodies react best too.

[Dougiefresh7707]

Looking good mixx just was a bit skeptical and wanted to see what you were working with. Quite an achievement for no aas use. It really comes down to your goals and aspirations. I would look to members like Marcus300 and his diary on here to see if you would benefit from his Hiit type of training to break your plateau. Also Ronnie Rowland's slingshot method can be tried just the same. He has a sticky on here too. There is a wealth of info and extremely knowledgable/helpful members that would be able to help you with or without aas.

In short, as mentioned previously, you will gain with the use of aas and break past where you are at. It is up to you if you want to venture to the "darkside" like most of us have or stay natty in which you already look like you cycle. All depends on how far you want to take your physique.

Lol got beat to it again.

[etownfit]

Looking good mixx just was a bit skeptical and wanted to see what you were working with. Quite an achievement for no aas use. It really comes down to your goals and aspirations. I would look to members like Marcus300 and his diary on here to see if you would benefit from his Hiit type of training to break your plateau. Also Ronnie Rowland's slingshot method can be tried just the same. He has a sticky on here too. There is a wealth of info and extremely knowledgable/helpful members that would be able to help you with or without aas.

In short, as mentioned previously, you will gain with the use of aas and break past where you are at. It is up to you if you want to venture to the "darkside" like most of us have or stay natty in which you already look like you cycle. All depends on how far you want to take your physique.

Good Advice

[mixx113]

Not a problem Chi I understand, just browsing the forum I see a lot of first time lifters jumping into cycles without a clue. I really appreciate the support I will deff check out those threads. I really want to be informed and have all the input and opinions i can gather before I make a decision. I can tell your extremely knowledgeable on this topic and much more experienced then myself so if you don't mind me asking- if you were in my shoes, what would you personally do?

[armyranger516862006]

With your genetics if you are telling the truth, you can possibly take yourself to unbelievable levels in the future! Keep up the hard work bud! You will see change!

[JWP806]

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...good-read.html

That's not a study. That's an article written by a guy from 2002. I tried googling him and couldn't find him. Credentials?

[chi]

Not a problem Chi I understand, just browsing the forum I see a lot of first time lifters jumping into cycles without a clue. I really appreciate the support I will deff check out those threads. I really want to be informed and have all the input and opinions i can gather before I make a decision. I can tell your extremely knowledgeable on this topic and much more experienced then myself so if you don't mind me asking- if you were in my shoes, what would you personally do?

Honestly speaking let me tell you a short story about myself.....


I was your age and cycling though I did not nearly have the base you have and was given the worse type of guidance and advice one could get while using aas. I paid for it and messed up my system which later lead to a very long recovery and depression. I get over this and know a hell of a lot more now then I did then plus there was no such board around when I attempted my first cycle. If there was I would've probably waited to cycle and gotten my natty levels up to something alot better then 180 pds (what i weighed roughly at the time) and done things correctly with proper pct and hcg when I did decide to cycle.
I think you are at a point where you have definitely achieved a whole lot natural and are ready to go on to the next level which is aas. Just by the way you look and your bf you I can tell you are into your diet and training 100% and are responsible enough to handle the use of aas.

I can't make decisions for you but in my eyes well................

[armyranger516862006]

Agree ^^^^

[JWP806]

Plenty of info available citing the fact that the human brain is not considered fully developed till an average of age 25. The same info explains the role of the brain and the endocrine system.

I know the role of the brain in the endocrine system. Where are the studies that say the hypothalamus and pituitary glands are not fully developed until 25? I tried running a quick search but couldn't find anything on the hypo and pit gland specifically. If you can post some the ill totally eat my words.

I realize that some parts of the brain are still developing into the mid 20s but does that include the hypothalamus and pituitary gland?

[Lunk1]

I know the role of the brain in the endocrine system. Where are the studies that say the hypothalamus and pituitary glands are not fully developed until 25? I tried running a quick search but couldn't find anything on the hypo and pit gland specifically. If you can post some the ill totally eat my words.

I realize that some parts of the brain are still developing into the mid 20s but does that include the hypothalamus and pituitary gland?

No...in most cases the HPTA is fully developed during by the late teens I men. My concern would be less about the individual glands and more about the over all system development. The endocrine system works directly with the nervous system and releases hormones that effect every cell in the body. Excess levels of hormones such as estrogen and testosterone in the human body can have an adverse effect on the overall system.

For 1 huge example: GROWTH can be effected when increased levels of test are introduced into the system causing skeletal maturation.

Endocrine regulation of longitudinal bone growth. [Endocr Dev. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Again..it's best to look at the entire system as well as how it relates to the other systems in the body, instead of just looking at the HPTA alone.

[JWP806]

No...in most cases the HPTA is fully developed during by the late teens I men. My concern would be less about the individual glands and more about the over all system development. The endocrine system works directly with the nervous system and releases hormones that effect every cell in the body. Excess levels of hormones such as estrogen and testosterone in the human body can have an adverse effect on the overall system.

For 1 huge example: GROWTH can be effected when increased levels of test are introduced into the system causing skeletal maturation.

Endocrine regulation of longitudinal bone growth. [Endocr Dev. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Again..it's best to look at the entire system as well as how it relates to the other systems in the body, instead of just looking at the HPTA alone.

Thanks for taking the time to post this, Lunk. So obviously the introduction of exogenous testosterone is going to stop a young person from growing if taken at a younger age... I know from personal experience.

When we talk about waiting to run gear until 24-25, the main reason that is usually thrown around on the board is that you will damage your hpta's development and risk being on trt the rest of your life. What other systems are damaged other than the endo and skeletal system? You mention the nervous system; what type of complications arise within the nervous system?

Lunk - These are all just honest questions. You are a well of knowledge so I take advantage of learning as much as I can from you.

OP - Sorry to run off with your thread here! If I have any more questions, I'll just pm Lunk.